13% of students "chronically absent"

Groogrux said:

Yes, because your parents valued education. Any student that attends school regularly, values education and does what is required of them to achieve responsible grades will have no problem with the ACTs or SATs.

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Don't diminish my academic success. My parents raised me, but I am the one who attended school and did the work.

How many of these absences are a result of bathroom interactions? That is what our government seems to think is the top priority in education.

soot said:

Oh, and we're not teaching them enough while they're incarcerated for the crimes that they were committing when they were, ostensibly, not attending the schools they should be going to.

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I think that is a legitimate problem. It's counterintuitive to incarcerate kids for truency, but provide no education while they're incarcerated.

Napoleon said:

I think that is a legitimate problem. It's counterintuitive to incarcerate kids for truency, but provide no education while they're incarcerated.

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First of all, we aren't incarcerating kids for truancy.

While truancy might be part of their life history they're actually being incarcerated for committing "real" crimes.

Second, we are providing them with an education, but it isn't as expansive an education as they would be receiving if they were in a traditional school rather than a jail or prison type setting.

Now maybe I'm just being pessimistic, though I would argue that I'm being a realist rather than an idealist, but I would hazard to guess that young people who are serving time in our jails and prisons aren't exactly the most teachable people on earth and probably have little more interest in putting in the effort to study and learn while they're behind bars than they did when they were free.

Celebrity said:

It's not really a matter of parenting for children who cannot answer questions about subject matter which exists only outside of their culture or socioeconomic background. Standardized testing is fundamentally flawed - like the IQ test, it attempts to broadly address intelligence.

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the subject matter being tested in standardized format is that same material being taught in our schools. those who are exposed to such material outside their native cultural/socioeconomic background can and do test well ... IF they were studious when the material was presented

my spouse teaches at a project lift school in an extremely disadvantaged community. many of the children in that school are Montagnard refugees from the highlands of vietnam. it varies by tribe, but typically the Montagnard parents did not attend school beyond second grade (less for girls). they arrived on our shores speaking no english and having little knowledge about America. within a very few months the kids will be speaking english and thriving in their schools. as a group, they substantially outperform the test results of the kids who were native born; in both math and reading
the difference? Montagnards are a tribal people who focus their energies and attention on their children. tho earning low wages, they provide adequate support for their kids. they are well nourished, clean clothed and bathed, receive adequate sleep, and the kids are expected to do well in schools. the kids do not want to disappoint their folks, and they both behave and pay attention to their studies. that's it. that IS the difference. the kids fresh off the boat master our language and outperform American kids because they have families who expect them to behave and do well in school. that and they are cared for and know it. no amount of money can buy that. which is why the bill & Melinda gates foundation keeps failing in their efforts to improve low income schools despite throwing huge amounts of money at the problem. we cannot buy good parents

justabubba said:

the subject matter being tested in standardized format is that same material being taught in our schools. those who are exposed to such material outside their native cultural/socioeconomic background can and do test well ... IF they were studious when the material was presented

my spouse teaches at a project lift school in an extremely disadvantaged community. many of the children in that school are Montagnard refugees from the highlands of vietnam. it varies by tribe, but typically the Montagnard parents did not attend school beyond second grade (less for girls). they arrived on our shores speaking no english and having little knowledge about America. within a very few months the kids will be speaking english and thriving in their schools. as a group, they substantially outperform the test results of the kids who were native born; in both math and reading
the difference? Montagnards are a tribal people who focus their energies and attention on their children. tho earning low wages, they provide adequate support for their kids. they are well nourished, clean clothed and bathed, receive adequate sleep, and the kids are expected to do well in schools. the kids do not want to disappoint their folks, and they both behave and pay attention to their studies. that's it. that IS the difference. the kids fresh off the boat master our language and outperform American kids because they have families who expect them to behave and do well in school. that and they are cared for and know it. no amount of money can buy that. which is why the bill & Melinda gates foundation keeps failing in their efforts to improve low income schools despite throwing huge amounts of money at the problem. we cannot buy good parents

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I think I have told this story before, but towards the end of my career as a Social Worker I handled refugee cases and adult disability. One of the last straws for me was when, on the same day, I saw a new refugee from Vietnam who had been rescued from an orphanage in her late teens after years of essentially incarceration, and a man about the same age who was born here but said he couldn't work because his back hurt. This girl's parents had abandoned her after she stepped on a land mine and had both of her arms blown off at the elbow. Since Communist Vietnam had little use for cripples, she was abandoned for most of her life in that hell hole.. the guy with the bad back had no such hardship.

When she arrived she spoke no English and so, with the help of her interpreter, I filled out her application. The guy couldn't be bothered to fill out the application and wanted me to do it. It wasn't because he couldn't read and write, he could, he just couldn't be arsed. Unfortunately I couldn't force him to fill it out and was supposed to complete these forms on request.

Fast forward a few months and the girl came to my office wanting to cancel her benefits because she had found a job at the Church that sponsored her helping other refugees from Vietnam and didn't need the state help anymore. She told me this in clear English, and filled out her exit papers herself holding the pen in her elbows.

That same day the guy came back to re-up his benefits, and pushed the application and pen to my side of the table...

Where the hell did we go so wrong.

jmotivator said:

I think I have told this story before, but towards the end of my career as a Social Worker I handled refugee cases and adult disability. One of the last straws for me was when, on the same day, I saw a new refugee from Vietnam who had been rescued from an orphanage in her late teens after years of essentially incarceration. He parents abandoned her after she stepped on a land mine and had both of her arms blown off at the elbow, and a man about the same age who was born here but said he couldn't work because his back hurt. Since Communist Vietnam had little use for cripples, she was abandoned for most of her life in that hell hole.. the guy with the bad back had no such hardship.

When she arrived she spoke no English and so, with the help of her interpreter, I filled out her application. The guy couldn't be bothered to fill out the application and wanted me to do it. It wasn't because he couldn't read and write, he could, he just couldn't be arsed. Unfortunately I couldn't force him to fill it out and was supposed to complete these forms on request.

Fast forward a few months and the girl came to my office wanting to cancel her benefits because she had found a job at the Church that sponsored her helping other refugees from Vietnam and didn't need the state help anymore. She told me this in clear English, and filled out her exit papers herself holding the pen in her elbows.

That same day the guy came back to re-up his benefits, and pushed the application and pen to my side of the table...

Where the hell did we go so wrong.

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And my experience is that the guy who wouldn't fill out the form will blame is hardship on "immigrants" taking all the jobs.

jmotivator said:

I think I have told this story before, but towards the end of my career as a Social Worker I handled refugee cases and adult disability. One of the last straws for me was when, on the same day, I saw a new refugee from Vietnam who had been rescued from an orphanage in her late teens after years of essentially incarceration, and a man about the same age who was born here but said he couldn't work because his back hurt. This girl's parents had abandoned her after she stepped on a land mine and had both of her arms blown off at the elbow. Since Communist Vietnam had little use for cripples, she was abandoned for most of her life in that hell hole.. the guy with the bad back had no such hardship.

When she arrived she spoke no English and so, with the help of her interpreter, I filled out her application. The guy couldn't be bothered to fill out the application and wanted me to do it. It wasn't because he couldn't read and write, he could, he just couldn't be arsed. Unfortunately I couldn't force him to fill it out and was supposed to complete these forms on request.

Fast forward a few months and the girl came to my office wanting to cancel her benefits because she had found a job at the Church that sponsored her helping other refugees from Vietnam and didn't need the state help anymore. She told me this in clear English, and filled out her exit papers herself holding the pen in her elbows.

That same day the guy came back to re-up his benefits, and pushed the application and pen to my side of the table...

Where the hell did we go so wrong.

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Well, you can buy prosthetic limbs if you're wealthy enough. But if you have a bad back, you pretty much have to do physical therapy, which is a big commitment. The problem is when the money becomes a commitment for people who have no money and the commitment becomes money for people with no commitment.

Same thing with parenting, latchkey kids probably do worse on standardized tests than kids with parents who are in the workforce and spend time every day with their kids.

Fearandloathing said:

And my experience is that the guy who wouldn't fill out the form will blame is hardship on "immigrants" taking all the jobs.

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Not really, actually. Those who are entrenched in welfare rarely, in my experience, even consider the idea of getting a job. What effort they exert is in maximizing what they can get from the state.

They didn't complain about foreigners stealing their jobs, they complained about all welfare recipients but themselves taking money from the welfare system that they didn't deserve. Invariably there was a racist tinge to their complaint, but it was pretty uniform across all races. Everyone always thought that all other races scammed the system.

Celebrity said:

Well, you can buy prosthetic limbs if you're wealthy enough. But if you have a bad back, you pretty much have to do physical therapy, which is a big commitment. The problem is when the money becomes a commitment for people who have no money and the commitment becomes money for people with no commitment.

Same thing with parenting, latchkey kids probably do worse on standardized tests than kids with parents who are in the workforce and spend time every day with their kids.

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LOL, spare me your conclusions about cases you have no clue about beyond what I told you. :roll:

The guy could work, he just chose not to in the same way he wanted me to fill out his forms. He was a user, plain and simple.

The girl, as I said, needed no prosthetic assistance, she overcame her limitations just fine.

jmotivator said:

LOL, spare me your conclusions about cases you have no clue about beyond what I told you. :roll:

The guy could work, he just chose not to in the same way he wanted me to fill out his forms. He was a user, plain and simple.

The girl, as I said, needed no prosthetic assistance, she overcame her limitations just fine.

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My question at this point is: Can you make a child who does not want to go to school go to school?

Many parents lack the conviction to persuade their children to do so. A hypothetical parent who never wanted to go school, unlike the Montagnards who did not go to school, might fail to inspire their children to learn and play at school because they simply cannot come up with a good reason. If the bad parenting is not a solitary occurrence, then we should see chronic absences and intervention from a guidance counselor. Do you think it is the case that guidance counselors are better prepared to aid students than Child Protective Services?

Celebrity said:

My question at this point is: Can you make a child who does not want to go to school go to school?

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in almost every instance
but the parents must train the child to be obedient at a young age
you cannot allow them to run wild for four years and then all of a sudden expect them to be obedient, respectful kids as they enter kindergarten

Many parents lack the conviction to persuade their children to do so.

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we learn to parent from our parents. if the parents' families did not value education, then why would the new parents pass an education tradition on to their children
there are kids who love learning enough not to require parental guidance. just as there are those who have wonderful homes but the kid rebels. but these are the distinct exceptions
the key to a child doing well in school is having parents who expect and support that outcome

A hypothetical parent who never wanted to go school, unlike the Montagnards who did not go to school, might fail to inspire their children to learn and play at school because they simply cannot come up with a good reason.

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agreed. this is the heart of the problem. if getting a good education was of no importance to the parents, then it is unlikely they would pass a strong desire for education to their kids. and such a tradition is essential for educational success

If the bad parenting is not a solitary occurrence, then we should see chronic absences and intervention from a guidance counselor. Do you think it is the case that guidance counselors are better prepared to aid students than Child Protective Services?

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what is (and is not) happening in the students' lives, due to their parental circumstances, is an issue far beyond what counselors could address. at my wife's high poverty school, truancy court is conducted on campus. but it goes far beyond absenteeism. her school has staff whose job is to intervene with families. others who secure shoes, clothes, and other items that some kids require so they can fit in. they have multiple staff whose job is to deal with behavior problems. and it is this - that the students do not know how to behave in a public setting - that is what prevents learning from happening. the teachers are effectively baby sitters rather than content instructors. pity the few kids who actually show up to learn, because chances are their teacher is preoccupied dealing with behavior problems instead of teaching. this is THE critical aspect that the gates foundation appears to ignore; probably because microsoft cannot sell software to change parental behavior

justabubba said:

in almost every instance
but the parents must train the child to be obedient at a young age
you cannot allow them to run wild for four years and then all of a sudden expect them to be obedient, respectful kids as they enter kindergarten

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Cool, so as long as the children are obedient and respectful, they'll be self sustaining later on. I doubt it. Self disciplined students outperform obedient students any day.

justabubba said:

we learn to parent from our parents. if the parents' families did not value education, then why would the new parents pass an education tradition on to their children
there are kids who love learning enough not to require parental guidance. just as there are those who have wonderful homes but the kid rebels. but these are the distinct exceptions
the key to a child doing well in school is having parents who expect and support that outcome

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A lot of times we repeat our parents failures. Being blind to self discipline can cause affluenza in even the most autonomous kids with the best means. We learn from our teachers and other adults before we're prepared to parent.

justabubba said:

agreed. this is the heart of the problem. if getting a good education was of no importance to the parents, then it is unlikely they would pass a strong desire for education to their kids. and such a tradition is essential for educational success

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Tradition isn't everything, if that was the case, education would be automated from Dora the Explorer to Neil deGrasse Tyson.

justabubba said:

what is (and is not) happening in the students' lives, due to their parental circumstances, is an issue far beyond what counselors could address. at my wife's high poverty school, truancy court is conducted on campus. but it goes far beyond absenteeism. her school has staff whose job is to intervene with families. others who secure shoes, clothes, and other items that some kids require so they can fit in. they have multiple staff whose job is to deal with behavior problems. and it is this - that the students do not know how to behave in a public setting - that is what prevents learning from happening. the teachers are effectively baby sitters rather than content instructors. pity the few kids who actually show up to learn, because chances are their teacher is preoccupied dealing with behavior problems instead of teaching. this is THE critical aspect that the gates foundation appears to ignore; probably because microsoft cannot sell software to change parental behavior

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See above.