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SC Confederate Flag Taken Down From State Capitol in South Carolina

Ryriena said:
So basically the blame the south card for all the racism and slavery in the U.S....
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No, blame the South for the slavery and racism in the South, which continued, and was defended by the state at the end of police guns until the 1960s. Goodness, why does every argument for the flag have to descend into a series of straw men and red herrings.

I guess they really made you feel guilty for something you had no part in sweetie. I see no reason, why I should feel ashamed for something that was considered common since the biblical times and still is common to this day.
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I said I was ashamed of that part of our collective history in the South. How can I not be? Should I be proud that the leaders of the South disenfranchised millions of black residents for a century following the Civil War through Jim Crow laws that had the effect of spitting on the Constitution of the U.S., and that these policies had the broad support of whites in the South?

I'm proud the vast, vast majority of Southerners have overcome that systemic, socially accepted, even expected racism that dominated the region from the founding through the 1960s or so, but to be proud of how we've changed I have to recognize and be ashamed of our past history. Sorry, but saying "Daddy was also a racist" would not excuse my racism, so that it was "common since the biblical times" is nothing more than a comment on human depravity through all of recorded history, and is not in any way an excuse for it.

Also you forget it was not just whites that sold people into slavery so did blacks in the USA. In fact, most slavers in Africa where blacks Africans from a diffrent tribe
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Yeah, and so what? The elected leaders in the South that passed and maintained white supremacy defended by the police state were all (100%) white, mostly self proclaimed "Christians." If you're pointing out that blacks here and in Africa can also engage in unconscionable practices, yes, that is no doubt true.
 
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JasperL said:
When SC raised the Rebel flag, no one had to guess that it meant the elected leaders opposed the end of Jim Crow, the CRA, the VRA, etc. It didn't depend on the person - that symbol meant something very specific - a continuation of segregation and second class citizenship for blacks. That's why whites all across the South all waved that flag when they needed a universal symbol for "Keep _____ White!" "Segregation Always!" Etc.

And what the Flag of the "North" (aka the American Flag) stood for should have been the ideals in the Constitution of the United States, which with the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendment was equal civil rights for blacks, something denied to them by Southern states who figuratively spat on the Constitution, the American flag, and the rights it protected. That's why the black marchers frequently carried the U.S. flag, and their opponents the Rebel flag.
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me said:
See, this is the problem. It depends on the person.
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Case in point.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Wrong, this point needs to be brought up.

I agree that the State should not be flying this flag at the capital. I get it. But these arguments for pressure on private businesses and old Confederate burial grounds brings up the point for us. Remove all the flags, even go so far as to outlaw, and you are left with the conclusion that racial hatred is not cured. Only education does this, which will be submarined by efforts to rewrite it.
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Like.
 
Tettsuo said:
You're simply refusing the acknowledge the general understand of what the flag stands for. Again, much like the swastika, it's origin intent is not what it's currently understood as.

The American flag does not hold the same meaning to Americans as the confederate flag does. So I'm not sure why you're bring that up and insisting it does.
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Like.
 
jonny5 said:
Case in point.
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But you didn't address the "case" of the Rebel flag in the civil rights era.

If you were white and waved it during a civil rights march, are you suggesting that it was open to interpretation whether you stood with MLK, or Wallace and his ilk?

Who do you think this guy stood with?

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PIPEWRENCH said:
The flag needed to come down. But it needed to be taken down voluntarily by the people who believe and cherish it not by force.

Removal of the flag is nothing more than a power play. Solving the actual problem of prejudice, hate, and vengeance will be a part of human behavior for the foreseeable future. Forcing the removal or the fag will only reinforce these emotions. As for the people who enjoy forcing their beliefs and ideology on others they are just as emotionally sick. Any one who thinks removal of this flag will bring about love and harmony from the people who supported that flag need to read this poem. This is where the solution will come from not some flag or swastika being forcefully removed from everywhere.
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No govt force is being imposed on private citizens or businesses regarding flying the Confederate flag.
 
JasperL said:
There have been people "fussing" about the flag for decades in SC. It comes up every election, at least, and there have been formal and more informal protests from time to time since at least the 1990s. The NAACP had a 15 year old boycott of the state related to the flag until last week. And the NCAA has had a ban on "predetermined" games (like the NCAA basketball tournament) in SC (and Mississippi) for well over a decade.

And I think they've got the murder charges in good hands. I'm not sure what we're supposed to focus on.
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Like.
 
jonny5 said:
See, this is the problem. It depends on the person. For some it stands for liberty, for some, tyranny. Just like the confederate flag. Should we appease everyone who is offended? This issue defines the PC movement.
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So then shouldnt it be left up to individuals to decide if THEY want to fly it? They can...there is no law against citizens or businesses doing so.

Why should a govt that serves ALL its citizens fly something that...as most or all admit...is offensive a to great number of its citizens and historically and factually does symbolize treason and keeping people as property?
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
It needs to be required reading in every school in this nation. Maybe then people would stop vilifying the South

WOW did you ever miss the point! The feds were not supposed to have near the power they do today. Luckily for us though Hitler was stupid or we would all be speaking German and it wouldn't matter.
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So tell me, how far better do you believe you would be under the French and British rule?
 
JasperL said:
OK, then what is your point? Please be specific.

I'll tell you mine. It's that the Rebel flag has a history, and during the civil rights era it stood for opposition to civil and human rights for black citizens, the continuation of Jim Crow.
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In other words you see it after it was hijacked by racists. No wonder you don't understand. The flag originally stood for the state's right to govern themselves, with as little fed interference as possible. In other words the complete opposite of today's climate.
 
DDD said:
So tell me, how far better do you believe you would be under the French and British rule?
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No way to know. The Brits aren't that bad, we still love the Royals after all. The French, love their culture, not to mention their food! WHEW richest stuff ever! I'm just never eating Fuax gras again, ever.
 
Ryriena said:
Secondly, you think it's alright to dig him up? Just because you disagree with him also he disbanded the KKK after it disolved into harassing blacks. In fact he was an advocate for black youths latter on to join law schools all over the country. Also the kkk was originally fourmed to protect southerners from the northerners raiders and criminals on their way up north after the war, when forest found out it disolved into harassing blacks he disbanded the order.

I just pointed out that we should ban the American flag also since it held slavery up a lot longer than the four years the confederates did and took the north in some states to officially end slavery until 1900's.
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Glad I'm not the only one who knows the original purpose of the KKK! Also you're right about the north and slaves. They were just as "guilty" as the South, yet are often made out to be the "good guys"
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
In other words you see it after it was hijacked by racists. No wonder you don't understand. The flag originally stood for the state's right to govern themselves, with as little fed interference as possible. In other words the complete opposite of today's climate.
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First of all, these "racists" were Dixiecrats, state legislators, governors, elected leaders, who comprised a majority of those state legislatures and rallied under the flag in opposition to ending Jim Crow, etc.

When did it mean that? And when did it mean "with as little Fed interference as possible" when that wasn't related to either enslaving blacks or subjecting them to oppressive Jim Crow laws?

It does actually matter if the "state's right to govern themselves" meant the states' right to enforce a second class status on more than a third of their citizens because of race.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Glad I'm not the only one who knows the original purpose of the KKK! Also you're right about the north and slaves. They were just as "guilty" as the South, yet are often made out to be the "good guys"
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Really, the North had slaves after the ratification of the 13th Amendment in 1865 that outlawed slavery throughout the U.S. and its territories? And if the North were just as "guilty", then why did the South secede, citing irreconcilable differences over slavery as a HUGE (if not THE) reason?
 
JasperL said:
Really, the North had slaves after the ratification of the 13th Amendment in 1865 that outlawed slavery throughout the U.S. and its territories? And if the North were just as "guilty", then why did the South secede, citing irreconcilable differences over slavery as a HUGE (if not THE) reason?
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You revel in being wrong I can tell. Kentucky for example did not "outlaw" slavery until 1976 or so. Look it up. Also guess what? Despite what you have been indoctrinated to think, slavery was not the reason for the War for Southern Independence. State's rights was the main reason, and yes a state's RIGHT to decide the slavery issue for themselves was only PART of it
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Glad I'm not the only one who knows the original purpose of the KKK! Also you're right about the north and slaves. They were just as "guilty" as the South, yet are often made out to be the "good guys"
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Dad once told me a story about when northerners landed near West Columbia, Texas near Verner Hogg plantation the slaves and owners barley escaped since they landed at another spot a ways near another plantation where Union soldiers killed most of the slaves thankfully some escaped the massacre and made it down to other plantations after them and warned them to flee. Why in the world would they kill black Americans if this was a war done to liberate them from slavery. Verner Hogg was the father of Ima Hogg a famous democrat here in Texas. See the north was just as bad for blacks during the civil war, they did not discriminate on who they killed.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
You revel in being wrong I can tell. Kentucky for example did not "outlaw" slavery until 1976 or so. Look it up. Also guess what? Despite what you have been indoctrinated to think, slavery was not the reason for the War for Southern Independence. State's rights was the main reason, and yes a state's RIGHT to decide the slavery issue for themselves was only PART of it
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So what? There are all kinds of garbage laws still on the books. The 13th Amendment made such laws moot when it was ratified by the states in 1865. Kentucky could still have laws allowing slavery on the books today and slavery would be just as illegal in Kentucky today as it was in 1865, 1866.........2015.

And goodness, when someone starts calling it the War for Southern Independence, you know they're Lost Cause types. Yes, there were many reasons, we've been through this, read the statements of the seceding states in their own words, read the words of the VP of the Confederacy in his own words, etc.
 
Lursa said:
No govt force is being imposed on private citizens or businesses regarding flying the Confederate flag.
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Agreed. I personally don't like the flag or the prejudice that surrounds it. I also sympathize with the millions of southern people that were injured and died serving under that flag who never owned a slave. There was more to the civil war than slavery. Slavery was only a small issue at the outset of the division between the North and the South. But that is another topic.

My argument is if you are going to remove the flag maybe we should also remove everything else that is associated with slavery. Where does it stop? A lot of our presidents and founding fathers were slave owners. Should their pictures and monuments be removed? They clearly supported and approved of enslaving people. Do we stop with slavery or do we move on to the American Indian and everything that is offensive towards them? What about Chinese, Irish, polish, etc immigrants that were treated horribly when they first came to this country. Do we start removing anything and everything offensive towards everyone and anyone?

If I thought removing that flag would solve the problem I would have taken it down myself without passing any laws. When I was in the military I watched the American Flag get dragged down the street and new that was what I was willing to fight and die for. No soldier liked it but forcefully trying to stop it would have only made things worse. I fear taking down that flag will only cause thousands more to be raised.
 
Ryriena said:
Dad once told me a story about when northerners landed near West Columbia, Texas near Verner Hogg plantation the slaves and owners barley escaped since they landed at another spot a ways near another plantation where Union soldiers killed most of the slaves thankfully some escaped the massacre and made it down to other plantations after them and warned them to flee. Why in the world would they kill black Americans if this was a war done to liberate them from slavery. Verner Hogg was the father of Ima Hogg a famous democrat here in Texas. See the north was just as bad for blacks during the civil war, they did not discriminate on who they killed.
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I'll assume the story was true but can't verify it, but what does it prove? As a rule, runaway blacks were invited to fight for the Union, and over 180,000 of them did enlist and fight. The South prohibited blacks from serving in combat until the very end of the war because being inferior and all were only suited for cooking etc. in service to their masters who fought. So I'm not sure how you conclude the north was "just as bad" for blacks. I'm sure the North killed anyone who took up arms or resisted them, black or white, but that's war. And no doubt both sides killed many innocent bystanders, again that's part of war.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Agreed. I personally don't like the flag or the prejudice that surrounds it. I also sympathize with the millions of southern people that were injured and died serving under that flag who never owned a slave. There was more to the civil war than slavery. Slavery was only a small issue at the outset of the division between the North and the South. But that is another topic.
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You lose a great many of us by saying slavery was only a small issue. There may have been many issues, but slavery simply was THE irreconcilable issue when the South seceded. The states said so in their own words at the time.

My argument is if you are going to remove the flag maybe we should also remove everything else that is associated with slavery. Where does it stop? A lot of our presidents and founding fathers were slave owners. Should their pictures and monuments be removed? They clearly supported and approved of enslaving people. Do we stop with slavery or do we move on to the American Indian and everything that is offensive towards them? What about Chinese, Irish, polish, etc immigrants that were treated horribly when they first came to this country. Do we start removing anything and everything offensive towards everyone and anyone?
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I will speak for me, but the Rebel flag has a unique and identifiable history intimately associated with efforts by elected leaders to protect Jim Crow laws. That's what makes it inappropriate to fly in a position of honor on state grounds. There are other flags not so associated with that effort.

Furthermore, we know the Rebel flag is seen as a sign of white supremacy and racism by at least a majority of blacks, in part because of its racist history and that flag's continued use by visible white racists today, like the murderer in SC, the KKK, and others. It's no more than common courtesy and a show of respect to 1/3 of the population in SC not fly such a divisive symbol on state grounds.

If I thought removing that flag would solve the problem I would have taken it down myself without passing any laws. When I was in the military I watched the American Flag get dragged down the street and new that was what I was willing to fight and die for. No soldier liked it but forcefully trying to stop it would have only made things worse. I fear taking down that flag will only cause thousands more to be raised.
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That's possible, but I think the state made the easy decision. It's been a controversy for decades and it seems apparent the business community at least finally said enough of the pointless BS around this historical relic.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Agreed. I personally don't like the flag or the prejudice that surrounds it. I also sympathize with the millions of southern people that were injured and died serving under that flag who never owned a slave. There was more to the civil war than slavery. Slavery was only a small issue at the outset of the division between the North and the South. But that is another topic.

My argument is if you are going to remove the flag maybe we should also remove everything else that is associated with slavery. Where does it stop? A lot of our presidents and founding fathers were slave owners. Should their pictures and monuments be removed? They clearly supported and approved of enslaving people. Do we stop with slavery or do we move on to the American Indian and everything that is offensive towards them? What about Chinese, Irish, polish, etc immigrants that were treated horribly when they first came to this country. Do we start removing anything and everything offensive towards everyone and anyone?

If I thought removing that flag would solve the problem I would have taken it down myself without passing any laws. When I was in the military I watched the American Flag get dragged down the street and new that was what I was willing to fight and die for. No soldier liked it but forcefully trying to stop it would have only made things worse. I fear taking down that flag will only cause thousands more to be raised.
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How do you align founding Fathers with secession to maintain a slave based society?
Yes they owned slaves - as did many at the time.
The world changed and found slavery to be an abomination.
 
Crovax said:
Now that the flag is down there will be no more racism and no one will ever get shot again
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Yes, thanks to our ever so thoughtful politicians who refuse to address the real issue here: gun control.
 
JasperL said:
I'll assume the story was true but can't verify it, but what does it prove? As a rule, runaway blacks were invited to fight for the Union, and over 180,000 of them did enlist and fight. The South prohibited blacks from serving in combat until the very end of the war because being inferior and all were only suited for cooking etc. in service to their masters who fought. So I'm not sure how you conclude the north was "just as bad" for blacks. I'm sure the North killed anyone who took up arms or resisted them, black or white, but that's war. And no doubt both sides killed many innocent bystanders, again that's part of war.
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So basicly your ignoring the fact the north killed most of the Black Americans on the Plantation who they ment to liberate from Slavery, but yeah let's say the war was based solely on Slavery. History is not always black and white my dear it's very grey. In fact the south, let them fight in the war their where many famous black confederate soilders that served in milta's at the time in the south. You might need to stop reading stupid books in fact their where several post from confederate soilders discribing the cooks joining the fights.
 
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HorseLoverGirl said:
You revel in being wrong I can tell. Kentucky for example did not "outlaw" slavery until 1976 or so. Look it up. Also guess what? Despite what you have been indoctrinated to think, slavery was not the reason for the War for Southern Independence. State's rights was the main reason, and yes a state's RIGHT to decide the slavery issue for themselves was only PART of it
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_Amendment
 
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