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SC Confederate Flag Taken Down From State Capitol in South Carolina

Risky Thicket said:
Which statement?
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This one: "Further, the flag represented Southern pride before it was adopted by racist."

Which should have been obvious by the context of the whole quote: "First of all, I'm not sure your statement is true. I can't identify any time in history when the flag represented "Southern Pride" without the stain of racism and white supremacy. You'll have to identify the time period and it has to be before it was widely used by the segregationist Dixiecrats in 1948. "
 
Gimmesometruth said:
As if the Lost Cause viewpoint is legitimate. It is putting lipstick on the pig of slavery, an attempt to distract from the horrors of a slave system via romanticizing the Antebellum South and culture, a culture completely dependent upon human slavery.
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Funny how you always blame slavery on the South, without understanding that it was prevalent in the North also.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
No, once again you avoid the point I made, that the "right" to enslave was the the premier "right" being defended by the Confederacy, that again your argument is a distinction without difference. Again, states always have the "right" to create inhumane law, they still do. It takes a very selective view of US history to ignore the fight to create states as slave states before they were states, before they could have "rights", ie the moves to expand slavery was independent of and pre-existed states "rights".
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I don't know who or what you were indoctrinated by, but the war was about WAY more than slavery. State's rights were a paramount issue, not to mention the unfair tariffs the north was levying on the South. See its easy for some to only have one view of the cause of the war, but in reality, it was much more than that.
 
Lursa said:
Same could have been said of Jim Crow...but it took more than 100 yrs and blacks in the South were still waiting. Just how long should they have waited for it to peter out on its own? Still suffering and being degraded? That flag symbolizes degradation of blacks as people and part of Southern society....to some people. Why should they continue to have their state govt...who represents them....fly it "proudly" as a daily reminder?

Go ahead, rationalize and minimize how painful that is for some people, again.
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You mean like the US flag is painful also since the north was also engaged in the slaves for rum triangle? Come on how dense can you be?
 
Lursa said:
As many here have pointed out...it seems that your history lessons were lacking, not ours.

There was no spin on my post, the bold are facts, not even subject to any biased historic perspective.

And I notice you didnt answer my question....the last sentence.
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Yes your history teachers were lacking, but its not their fault, they taught what the yankee spun books said. Also the flag stands for HERITAGE, not hate.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
You mean like the US flag is painful also since the north was also engaged in the slaves for rum triangle? Come on how dense can you be?
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And yet, the North sought to end slavery. They recognized that it was immoral (among other things) and that blacks were people.

Do you not see the difference in fighting FOR something and AGAINST something? So it really comes down to which side was fighting for the right things.

And slavery was clearly one of those things.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Yes your history teachers were lacking, but its not their fault, they taught what the yankee spun books said. Also the flag stands for HERITAGE, not hate.
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You just repeated yourself. And didnt answer the question. Again.

Hey, you dont actually need to answer...we can all see exactly what you think from what you've written and the answer is...."I dont care if it offends other people, *I* like it. Only *my* perspective matters."
 
Gimmesometruth said:
No, you lost track, your argument was a complaint that .we are looking at the concept of equality through a modern view, as if the concept of equality did not exist in 1861. The concept existed then as it does today, the issue was that the Confederacy rejected it totally. It is not a matter of the concept not existing.
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You're still applying today's views to history. No wonder it gets screwed.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Funny how you always blame slavery on the South, without understanding that it was prevalent in the North also.
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Funny how you ALWAYS change your argument, avoiding the point. The overwhelming support for expanding and maintaining slavery was from the South, a fact you cannot escape.
It is Southern culture maintaining the Lost Cause lie.
 
Lursa said:
You just repeated yourself. And didnt answer the question. Again.

Hey, you dont actually need to answer...we can all see exactly what you think from what you've written and the answer is...."I dont care if it offends other people, *I* like it. Only *my* perspective matters."
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I did answer you. I just didn't tell you what you wanted to hear obviously. I told you that my flying the flag, and other sane Southerners doing the same, is NOT "disrespectful" because it is our HERITAGE, not hate for others. Do you finally understand?
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Funny how you ALWAYS change your argument, avoiding the point. The overwhelming support for expanding and maintaining slavery was from the South, a fact you cannot escape.
It is Southern culture maintaining the Lost Cause lie.
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Ironic that your name is "gimmesometruth" yet you reject truth that is not shown through today's perspective but from the perspective of history.
 
Lursa said:
And yet, the North sought to end slavery. They recognized that it was immoral (among other things) and that blacks were people.

Do you not see the difference in fighting FOR something and AGAINST something? So it really comes down to which side was fighting for the right things.

And slavery was clearly one of those things.
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Lincoln was all about keeping the South from exercising their right to secede. He didn't care about ending slavery, he cared about making sure the north's economy would not collapse.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
I did answer you. I just didn't tell you what you wanted to hear obviously. I told you that my flying the flag, and other sane Southerners doing the same, is NOT "disrespectful" because it is our HERITAGE, not hate for others. Do you finally understand?
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No, you avoided it and answered a question you wanted to answer. Here, try again...I bolded it but perhaps the entire quote will help you with context.

Lursa said:
Not only that, several generations of racists have publicly used that flag to symbolize their racist beliefs.

These are facts. This is a symbol of that factual dehumanization and racism for many many people...including white people.

If it's so offensive for us to disrespect *your* view of the flag, why isnt it just as disrespectful of you and those that agree with you to want to keep that symbol of degradation and racism for others?
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HorseLoverGirl said:
Lincoln was all about keeping the South from exercising their right to secede. He didn't care about ending slavery, he cared about making sure the north's economy would not collapse.
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It's true that that was Lincoln's interests going into the war, but not exclusively that coming out of it.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Lincoln was all about keeping the South from exercising their right to secede. He didn't care about ending slavery, he cared about making sure the north's economy would not collapse.
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Ignoring history, facts, quotes, and everything else posted here in this thread...for YOU...only makes you look silly. No one yet has said slavery was the only reason. I specifically even wrote that.

So just bobbing and weaving to attempt to look 'right' is not working out like you hoped.
 
Lursa said:
Well then this really wasnt accurate:



The bold parts clearly indicate that it was connected to fighting for the continued right to keep blacks as property....that was one major reason that war was fought. If it wasnt called 'racism' at the time, the institutionalized system of slavery and common perspective that blacks were 'less' was prevalent.
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I'm trying to be rational here. The impetus to create the battle flag was to minimize confusion on the field of battle. The decision had no direct connection with slavery. Using your extended logic then, every Southerner who plowed a field; fished in a river; celebrated a birthday; attended church; sold vegetables at the market; sold a horse; or slept in an open field did so to support slavery.
 
Risky Thicket said:
I'm trying to be rational here. The impetus to create the battle flag was to minimize confusion on the field of battle. The decision had no direct connection with slavery. Using your extended logic then, every Southerner who plowed a field; fished in a river; celebrated a birthday; attended church; sold vegetables at the market; sold a horse; or slept in an open field did so to support slavery.
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@_@

LOLOLOL m'k
 
Lursa said:
Ignoring history, facts, quotes, and everything else posted here in this thread...for YOU...only makes you look silly. No one yet has said slavery was the only reason. I specifically even wrote that.

So just bobbing and weaving to attempt to look 'right' is not working out like you hoped.
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Yet I am not the one denying truth. Go figure.
 
JasperL said:
This one: "Further, the flag represented Southern pride before it was adopted by racist."

Which should have been obvious by the context of the whole quote: "First of all, I'm not sure your statement is true. I can't identify any time in history when the flag represented "Southern Pride" without the stain of racism and white supremacy. You'll have to identify the time period and it has to be before it was widely used by the segregationist Dixiecrats in 1948. "
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All of my life and that of my family the battle flag has been a symbol of Southern pride. I can only recall a relatively few times in my life that I saw the flag portrayed in a racist hateful manner. Never did it ever occur to me or my family or my friends or neighbors that the flag represented racism. To us it represents pride in Southern heritage and culture, a culture distinct from other parts of America.

You may feel anyway you wish about the flag, but you may not tell me how me and mine and most Southern people I know feel about the flag. From the beginning of the flag hysteria I have supported South Carolina and its decision.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Ironic that your name is "gimmesometruth" yet you reject truth that is not shown through today's perspective but from the perspective of history.
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A horribly confused comment. Your argument was that equality was not an existing concept in 1861, you are wrong.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
You proved my point, again.
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You often post this, but it is untrue. I proved the opposite of your point, that the concept of equality was very much in existence in 1861. I doubt you can state how this proves your "point".
 
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