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SC Confederate Flag Taken Down From State Capitol in South Carolina

Read The South Was Right then come back.

So..."The South Was Right" disproves the words of the vice president of the Confederacy, and the words of the congresses of the Confederate states?

No matter how you try, ma'am, you cannot get around the words of the leaders themselves. They would have know better than anyone else the 'why' of the secession and the war.
 
Glen, you may have came in late to the discussion and missed the history as told by the young lady's grand dad!

But what she can't get around is that my Southern roots are likely deeper than hers, that my Southern heritage was probably stronger than hers. I've been where and what she is...but my eyes and ears were opened. Hers are still shut.
 
Well, you say THE issue was "states' rights," but don't quote a single word of any Confederate leader making that case. ...
The did state State's Right's, but it was primarily the State's Right to Slavery.

As I stated on the other thread, had the previous election been won by a republican, the start of the war would have likely been 1856.

If you'll indulge me, I'll repost:

Let's go back a few more years, to the the presidential race of 1856. The first time ever a Republican was on the ballot: John C. Fremont. Slavery was a Yoooooge issue. All consuming.

Fremont was against the expansion of slavery, and of course was despised in the South.

Here is a campaign ribbon from 1856:

fremont-rib-1.jpg


Here is an 1856 anti-Fremont ribbon:

heritage0615-5.jpg


Heh. What do you think they were trying to impress there?

The South threatened at that time, if an anti-slavery President was elected - it would mean Civil War and "the Conservative South (soon) will burst forth in a carnival of blood..."

Bold Avowals--The Election of Buchanan to be a Stop Towards Disunion. - Article - NYTimes.com | 1856

<snip>

"The great object of the South in supporting Buchanan is to promote and extend the perpetuation of the "Conservative institution of Slavery." And the votes by which it is hoped he may be elected, are to become the basis of a secession movement and the formation of a Southern Slave Confederacy..."

1856FacetheFuture2.jpg

]Now, how's this for traitorous:

As the 1856 election drew near, a convention of Governors of the Southern slave states was secretly held at Raleigh, North Carolina. Jefferson Davis -- then the Secretary of War under Franklin Pierce, was full aware of this.

"The object was to devise a scheme of rebellion at that time, in the event of the election of Colonel John C. Fremont, the Republican candidate for the Presidency. "


Henry Wise, Governor of Virginia at the time
"...afterward boasted that, had Fremont been elected, he should have marched, at the head of twenty thousand men, to Washington, taken possession of the Capitol, and prevented the inauguration of the President elect. "

Source: Pictorial history of the Civil War in the United States of America - Lossing, 1866

Well, as we know, Buchanan was elected, and that staved off the fury for a few more years.

And get this: James Mason of Virginia, who was the leading Senator, wrote to US Sec. of War, Jeff Davis, later Confederate President, directly requesting him to arm the Southern states for war against the US -- a four full years before -- in any event a Republican would become President.

This was the letter

"I have a letter from WISE, of the 27th, full of spirit. He says the Governments of North Carolina, South Carolina, and Louisiana, have already agreed to rendezvous at Raleigh, and others will—this in your most private ear.

He says, further, that he had officially requested you to exchange with Virginia, on fair terms of difference, percussion for flint muskets. I don't know the usage or power of the Department in such cases, but if it can be done, even by liberal construction, I hope you will accede. … Virginia probably has more arms than the other Southern States, and would divide in case of need. In a letter yesterday to a Committee in South Carolina. I gave it as my judgment, in the event of FREMONT's election, the South should not pause, but proceed at once to "immediate, absolute, and eternal separation."​

Had Fremont been elected, the date of the start of the Civil War would have likely been 1856.
 
It was completely about state's rights, and PART of that was whether or not to allow slavery or not. But since it has already been established that you miss the point on purpose I am not surprised that you think slavery was the only cause of the War for Southern Independence.
But since the "right" to enslave humans was the premier "right" the Confederacy was defending, your argument is a difference without distinction. Slavery existed in what was the Confederacy before the Confederacy existed, before the "right"to enslave existed. The "right" for a state to create inhumane laws always existed, the CW was not about this right to create or not create inhumane laws, but to defend a pre-existing economic model the Confederacy viewed as essential.
 
But what she can't get around is that my Southern roots are likely deeper than hers, that my Southern heritage was probably stronger than hers. I've been where and what she is...but my eyes and ears were opened. Hers are still shut.

Oh I hear ya and agree. But her grand dad straightened out the tourist guide at Gettysburg, it's funny.
 
Yeah yeah yeah no sane person would reject the 13th amendment today, but you have to look at the times. That's the problem, you see history through today's eyes.
So your contention is that that the concept that Blacks....er..Negros....should be equal before the law did not exist in "yesterdays eyes", ie the US in 1861?
 
But you didn't address the "case" of the Rebel flag in the civil rights era.

Because thats not my argument. Its that different people have different views of things, and we dont have to appease everyones sensability. If the people of SC want a confederate flag to fly, they should do so. If it offendes someone in New York, tough.
 
Because thats not my argument. Its that different people have different views of things, and we dont have to appease everyones sensability. If the people of SC want a confederate flag to fly, they should do so. If it offendes someone in New York, tough.

OK, but that's not taking any position at all on anything.

Obviously we all agree it was the prerogative of SC officials to insult most of the black population in SC and keep the flag flyin' high! But what we've been discussing is why it was and still is an offensive symbol to many, including the black population of SC, and a big part of that is the documented history of the flag and its use by whites, including white elected leaders, during the civil rights era.

Besides, I'm sure at the end of the day the business community united in pulling the flag down because it did offend pretty much everyone not a Southerner and they got tired of explaining that, no, their state wasn't racist they just kept a flag with a racist history flying on state grounds, etc. So, in fact in a connected world, what others think about the flag does actually matter. It was the cause of at least two boycotts - by the NAACP and NCAA.
 
So your contention is that that the concept that Blacks....er..Negros....should be equal before the law did not exist in "yesterdays eyes", ie the US in 1861?

Obviously not since there was no way in hell Lincoln was gonna abolish slavery either. The only thing he cared about was making the South stay.
 
But since the "right" to enslave humans was the premier "right" the Confederacy was defending, your argument is a difference without distinction. Slavery existed in what was the Confederacy before the Confederacy existed, before the "right"to enslave existed. The "right" for a state to create inhumane laws always existed, the CW was not about this right to create or not create inhumane laws, but to defend a pre-existing economic model the Confederacy viewed as essential.

You mean the right of states to govern themselves, as was originally intended for the nation.
 
So..."The South Was Right" disproves the words of the vice president of the Confederacy, and the words of the congresses of the Confederate states?

No matter how you try, ma'am, you cannot get around the words of the leaders themselves. They would have know better than anyone else the 'why' of the secession and the war.

Read the book. It will explain everything that kids are not being taught today.
 
Obviously not since there was no way in hell Lincoln was gonna abolish slavery either. The only thing he cared about was making the South stay.
No, you lost track, your argument was a complaint that .we are looking at the concept of equality through a modern view, as if the concept of equality did not exist in 1861. The concept existed then as it does today, the issue was that the Confederacy rejected it totally. It is not a matter of the concept not existing.
 
The old south is doomed by demographics and intermarriage.

Everywhere I go I see white mothers black fathers and mixed race babies.

How are these bad?
 
Why does it matter how prominent an issue it [slavery] was? It was a major issue...fighting for the right to keep people as property.

Not only that, several generations of racists have publicly used that flag to symbolize their racist beliefs.

These are facts. This is a symbol of that factual dehumanization and racism for many many people...including white people.

If it's so offensive for us to disrespect *your* view of the flag, why isnt it just as disrespectful of you and those that agree with you to want to keep that symbol of degradation and racism for others?

You had a crappy US history teacher in high school if they taught you that.

As many here have pointed out...it seems that your history lessons were lacking, not ours.

There was no spin on my post, the bold are facts, not even subject to any biased historic perspective.

And I notice you didnt answer my question....the last sentence.
 
You mean the right of states to govern themselves, as was originally intended for the nation.

No, once again you avoid the point I made, that the "right" to enslave was the the premier "right" being defended by the Confederacy, that again your argument is a distinction without difference. Again, states always have the "right" to create inhumane law, they still do. It takes a very selective view of US history to ignore the fight to create states as slave states before they were states, before they could have "rights", ie the moves to expand slavery was independent of and pre-existed states "rights".
 
It was on its way out anyway, but it wasn't gonna happen overnight and the yanks didn't want to understand that.

Same could have been said of Jim Crow...but it took more than 100 yrs and blacks in the South were still waiting. Just how long should they have waited for it to peter out on its own? Still suffering and being degraded? That flag symbolizes degradation of blacks as people and part of Southern society....to some people. Why should they continue to have their state govt...who represents them....fly it "proudly" as a daily reminder?

Go ahead, rationalize and minimize how painful that is for some people, again.
 
Actually the design of the battle flag had no direct connection to black people. There is indeed a history behind the flag's design. It was designed to distinguish it from the U.S. flag on the battle field. Further, the flag represented Southern pride before it was adopted by racist.

When was that flag used before the start of the Civil War? It was the battle flag of that war. And one of the reasons they fought that war was for the right to keep people as property.
 
Actually the design of the battle flag had no direct connection to black people. There is indeed a history behind the flag's design. It was designed to distinguish it from the U.S. flag on the battle field. Further, the flag represented Southern pride before it was adopted by racist.

First of all, I'm not sure your statement is true. I can't identify any time in history when the flag represented "Southern Pride" without the stain of racism and white supremacy. You'll have to identify the time period and it has to be before it was widely used by the segregationist Dixiecrats in 1948.

And the "racists" who adopted the flag just simply were the Dixiecrats, and the legislatures, governors, etc. of the Southern states as well as their supporters. We're not talking about fringe groups, or whack job white supremacists - these were elected leaders. It was no accident, for example, that Georgia adopted the rebel flag into its state flag in the 1950s as it was fighting against equal civil rights for its black citizens.

Finally, it's just part of the shameful in my view historical past of the South that our "Southern Heritage" pre-civil rights era simply did have as an integral part of that heritage the state sanctioned and supported oppression of our black residents. So if whites celebrate Southern Culture in 1950, how is that done without recognizing that the culture simply meant segregation and oppression for blacks. Are we celebrating our all white restaurants, all white high schools, our all white colleges and sports teams, our all white police forces, all white legislatures and city and county governments because blacks were prohibited from registering to vote, running for office, serving on juries? I'm not sure how to celebrate that era without noting that a key strain that ran through it all was segregation and state oppression of blacks.
 
Read the book. It will explain everything that kids are not being taught today.
As if the Lost Cause viewpoint is legitimate. It is putting lipstick on the pig of slavery, an attempt to distract from the horrors of a slave system via romanticizing the Antebellum South and culture, a culture completely dependent upon human slavery.
 
It was on its way out anyway, but it wasn't gonna happen overnight and the yanks didn't want to understand that.
I used to believe that, until I remembered that the resurgence in the popularity of the CFB came as a result in reaction to civil rights post WWII.
 
When was that flag used before the start of the Civil War? It was the battle flag of that war. And one of the reasons they fought that war was for the right to keep people as property.

The flag wasn't used prior to the War Between the States. In fact it didn't come into use until after the First Manassas. There were times during Manassas that it was difficult to distinguish the Stars and Bars from the Stars and Stripes. This caused confusion for field commanders. Following the victory General Beauregard contacted General Johnston and recommended the South have two flags: "a parade flag and a war". For logistical reasons Beauregard did not want further confusion over the flags on the battle field. In the fog of war or when hanging limp on a flagstaff Union and Confederate flags looked very similar.

And yes one of the reasons the war was fought was slavery.
 
The flag wasn't used prior to the War Between the States. In fact it didn't come into use until after the First Manassas. There were times during Manassas that it was difficult to distinguish the Stars and Bars from the Stars and Stripes. This caused confusion for field commanders. Following the victory General Beauregard contacted General Johnston and recommended the South have two flags: "a parade flag and a war". For logistical reasons Beauregard did not want further confusion over the flags on the battle field. In the fog of war or when hanging limp on a flagstaff Union and Confederate flags looked very similar.

And yes one of the reasons the war was fought was slavery.

Well then this really wasnt accurate:

Actually the design of the battle flag had no direct connection to black people. There is indeed a history behind the flag's design. It was designed to distinguish it from the U.S. flag on the battle field. Further, the flag represented Southern pride before it was adopted by racist.

The bold parts clearly indicate that it was connected to fighting for the continued right to keep blacks as property....that was one major reason that war was fought. If it wasnt called 'racism' at the time, the institutionalized system of slavery and common perspective that blacks were 'less' was prevalent.
 
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