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Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

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Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times

The Thomas Jefferson Memorial, which has stood near the banks of the Potomac River in Washington for more than 70 years, is a classical tribute to the author of the Declaration of Independence and the third U.S. president..

This week, the Jefferson Memorial was drawn into the national debate about race following the shooting deaths of nine people in a predominantly black church in South Carolina last week. It joins other public statues depicting Southern or Confederate figures, including Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, that some are arguing represent the country's racist past and should be removed.

CNN anchor Ashleigh Banfield this week questioned whether the Jefferson Memorial should be taken down because Jefferson owned slaves. "There is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down," Banfield said.
See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
 
Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.

Ashleigh Banfield is colossally stupid.

And anyone who thinks this new found "guilt" is okay is stupider.
 
Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.

There's also alot of crap that gets mentioned and nothing ever comes of it.

There's never going to be a following for removing statues of our founding fathers simply for owning slaves.

There's a large difference between Jefferson and the confederacy. One was a large movement based on the idea that blacks are inferior and should be slaves and everything else was secondary. Jefferson was a great thinker with amazing ideas and ideals and that's what he's appreciated for. But he wasn't a perfect person and also held terrible ideas and did terrible things that were acceptable in his days.
 
There's also alot of crap that gets mentioned and nothing ever comes of it.

There's never going to be a following for removing statues of our founding fathers simply for owning slaves.

There's a large difference between Jefferson and the confederacy. One was a large movement based on the idea that blacks are inferior and should be slaves and everything else was secondary. Jefferson was a great thinker with amazing ideas and ideals and that's what he's appreciated for. But he wasn't a perfect person and also held terrible ideas and did terrible things that were acceptable in his days.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.
 
Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.

People forget that Banfield was at MSNBC when CNN hired her to increase their numbers with the left.

The pendulum of reactionary hate is swinging again, and I'm concerned with how far it will go this time, given that the pendulum of outrage based on hate and ignorance in the name of political correctness is more like a wrecking ball.

wrecking%20ball.gif
 
I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.

You of all people who almost never agrees with me. ;) I'm not sure what to say.
 
I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.

I didn't call him owning slaves "simple". Simply was used to denote that I don't think any large movement will form to remove his memorials just over him owning slaves. It would have to involve other things also.

Agree to disagree on Jefferson's ideals.
 
There's also a lot of crap that gets mentioned and nothing ever comes of it.

There's never going to be a following for removing statues of our founding fathers simply for owning slaves.

There's a large difference between Jefferson and the confederacy. One was a large movement based on the idea that blacks are inferior and should be slaves and everything else was secondary. Jefferson was a great thinker with amazing ideas and ideals and that's what he's appreciated for. But he wasn't a perfect person and also held terrible ideas and did terrible things that were acceptable in his days.

I just can't get over that this statement is simply false, if that's all the confederate states wanted, they would of had it... Lincoln came close to having an amendment to the constitution that left slavery up to the states. If it was about slavery the war would have ended after a year.... the union was willing to compromise on that front.

The confederate states wanted to separate from the union, slavery was the political issue that was used to spur the debate... it could have been any issue. People saw the opportunity and jumped. It was a political game, much like today, There are limitless examples of political movements with hidden agendas, where they have a PR side and a real side. Slavery was an excuse to separate, something that had been in discussion for a long time because of the staunch differences between the north and the south.

Slavery was awful, but it was something that was a part of life back then and something that the majority never even owned a slave. Black people even owned slaves at a time... Slavery was never the reason for the civil war until Lincoln made it so years later when he freed the slaves, and that was more for strategy against the confederates, it was the scapegoat for the real reasons.

I've read a lot on Robert E. Lee and he definitely seemed like a good man... a product of his time, but a good man. He would be considered racist by today's standards, but he didn't have that nature about him; a little modern education, I think, he would have not have been hands down- he was just mislead. There are other confederate officers/etc. I would say they were the opposite, very racist men, with hate...... but not Lee.



I just don't get the mentality, I don't see why people can't just condemn certain parts that happened in history with our modern minds but also understanding the time in which they lived in... I don't automatically shame a slaveowner in the past just because he was a slave owner... that was a reality of the time, it was what was culturally accepted. At the same time I don't automatically shame a confederate soldier for being a confederate soldier. And don't throw Nazi's into this mix... they were a completely different animal, there is not one significant similarity to the Nazis and the confederates, not one... and people that try to are either-
1. Extremely ignorant of the Nazis and the incredibly awful things they did OR have a hard time comparing these things
2. Extremely ignorant of the Confederates
3. Extremely dramatic
4. Only looks at this issue as a means to bolster their political agenda
5. All the above

Humans are capable of anything, We make up our own morality and make it reality... they were no more or less immoral than we are today, they just had a culture that was mislead... education is a great thing, well education that teaches open mindedness and real science, is a good thing...
 
I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.

And it's just ignorance on your part. That WAS what was moral back then... the collective determines what is moral and excepted, there is no objective morality :lol: which is what many liberals like to say. Slavery had been around the entire length of humanities history. Jefferson had actually laid down the foundations for the cultural mind in the United States to be able to change... Liberty and justice for all.

It took much more bravery back then to change the outlook on slavery than is required today, so you don't get to have that pride... you did nothing but be raised in a culture where slavery is unacceptable and immoral.
 
I didn't call him owning slaves "simple". Simply was used to denote that I don't think any large movement will form to remove his memorials just over him owning slaves. It would have to involve other things also.
I see. Thanks for clarifying. In that case, I agree. There isn't a large group of Americans who would advocate removing the statue for that aspect of his history alone. I think that there would have to be a significant shift in the way that our culture looks at the founding of our country in order for such a movement to gain steam.
 
And it's just ignorance on your part. That WAS what was moral back then... the collective determines what is moral and excepted, there is no objective morality which is what many liberals like to say. Slavery had been around the entire length of humanities history. Jefferson had actually laid down the foundations for the cultural mind in the United States to be able to change... Liberty and justice for all.
There were plenty of white abolitionists who knew that slavery was wrong. In fact, there were plenty of slave owners who knew that it was wrong. I believe some of the founding fathers themselves expressed conflicted thoughts on slavery. Even further, there were generations of black slaves who also knew that slavery was wrong. In short, there were different opinions on the morality of slavery at the time, so no, it was not universally moral back then.

Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense, particularly for Jefferson since he was most definitely exposed to abolitionist thought. He chose to participate in an unjust and cruel activity. There are no excuses.

I do agree with you that morality is subjective though.
 
See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept.

Oh, such scandalous contemplation! How dare these people mention or ponder beliefs and ideas! If they keep this up, they'll be acting like people such as Thomas Jefferson!
 
There were plenty of white abolitionists who knew that slavery was wrong. In fact, there were plenty of slave owners who knew that it was wrong. I believe some of the founding fathers themselves expressed conflicted thoughts on slavery. Even further, there were generations of black slaves who also knew that slavery was wrong. In short, there were different opinions on the morality of slavery at the time, so no, it was not universally moral back then.

Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense, particularly for Jefferson since he was most definitely exposed to abolitionist thought. He chose to participate in an unjust and cruel activity. There are no excuses.

I do agree with you that morality is subjective though.

My statements allow all those exceptions to happen... The fact is, slavery was much more morally ambiguous than it is today, GREATLY so.... and I don't think you have the right to act all high and mighty because you were not born in that time... you have it easy, it's easier for you to realize and make the moral choices.
 
Oh, such scandalous contemplation! How dare these people mention or ponder beliefs and ideas! If they keep this up, they'll be acting like people such as Thomas Jefferson!

But you believe he was a racist don't you?
 
Ashleigh Banfield is colossally stupid.

And anyone who thinks this new found "guilt" is okay is stupider.

She might very well be stupid, but I think you might agree with her if you knew the context in which she is speaking. She was comparing the call for taking down the Confederate flag with Thomas Jefferson's statue. I don't believe she was advocating for it's removal.

While discussing the movement to eradicate the presence of the Confederate flag, a CNN host asked whether we should also bring down a monument to a president who owned slaves.

After last week’s slaughter of nine black churchgoers by a white gunman in Charleston, South Carolina, aroused debate over the Confederate flag and inspired at least six major retailers to ban its sale, CNN host Ashleigh Banfield asked co-host Don Lemon whether this means we should also take down a memorial to former President Thomas Jefferson because of his slave ownership in the 1700s and early 1800s.


"Jefferson owned slaves," Banfield said, noting that a previous guest had made a "good point" in bringing that up. "Thomas Jefferson owned slaves -- third president of the United States. And there is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down. Is it equal [to the Confederate flag]?"

CNN Host Asks If Jefferson Memorial Is Equal With Confederate Flag
 
Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense, particularly for Jefferson since he was most definitely exposed to abolitionist thought. He chose to participate in an unjust and cruel activity. There are no excuses.

When are we guilty of presentism in this discussion, in your opinion?
 
When are we guilty of presentism in this discussion, in your opinion?
Presentism doesn't have anything to do with what I said since I based the line you quoted on views about slavery during Jefferson's life.
 
My statements allow all those exceptions to happen... The fact is, slavery was much more morally ambiguous than it is today, GREATLY so.... and I don't think you have the right to act all high and mighty because you were not born in that time... you have it easy, it's easier for you to realize and make the moral choices.
Maybe if you were talking about some regular uneducated farm hand, your point would make sense, but you're talking about Thomas Jefferson. He knew better. He chose to participate in a cruel system. And since he's been dead for a couple centuries, I think we can admit that.
 
Oh hell. This is the kind of crazy that even Hollywood backs away from.

Let's think about this for a second. If Jefferson is such a divisive figure that we need to raze his monument then every principle this nation was founded on is equally as divisive and we should just get rid of the Constitution, dissolve the union and appoint a civil rights committee to round up and reeducate everyone who has ever done anything which is offensive to anyone else.
 
I just can't get over that this statement is simply false, if that's all the confederate states wanted, they would of had it... Lincoln came close to having an amendment to the constitution that left slavery up to the states. If it was about slavery the war would have ended after a year.... the union was willing to compromise on that front.

By a year in to the war, the confederate leaders didn't trust the north to truly let them keep their slaves. And there is very scant evidence to suggest that the north really was willing to compromise on the issue.

Also, I'm not judging the people for being racist. I don't think you can judge them based on our modern morality when they lived in a time that didn't agree with our morality. But I see little reason to celebrate them other than the fact that they fought to continue slavery and to tear our nation apart.
 
Presentism doesn't have anything to do with what I said since I based the line you quoted on views about slavery during Jefferson's life.

You claimed, and I'll quote it again, "Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense". That's a spectacular assertion.
 
Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.

Please visit post # 16
 
Maybe if you were talking about some regular uneducated farm hand, your point would make sense, but you're talking about Thomas Jefferson. He knew better. He chose to participate in a cruel system. And since he's been dead for a couple centuries, I think we can admit that.

It was not a cruel system to him and amongst many of his peers, and it was not cruel to his father and his fathers before him... He was a revolutionary in much of his thinking... just not slavery...
 
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