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Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

And the Iron Cross was used by the Nazis, and the Japan's "Rising Sun" flag (which is actually pretty damn similar to the 'Confederate flag' in terms of cultural significance) was used as the battle flag of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy during WW2.

Just because bad people may have adopted a symbol at a certain point, doesn't mean that they taint it forever. Symbols are ultimately completely arbitrary. They mean whatever a given people say they mean.

This looks pointless, but I'll play anyway. The Iron Cross had a long and distinguished history prior to and post the Nazi era. It wasn't ever identified AS a uniquely "Nazi" symbol.
Japan adopted their flag in 1870, so it's also not identified with Pearl Harbor except that it was the Japanese who attacked us. And to my knowledge Hawaii doesn't fly the Japanese flag over any memorial to dead Japanese, killed at Pearl Harbor.

But these examples are red herrings so you can avoid the history of the Rebel flag. Your state's elected leaders and mine flew it as a signal of defiance against civil rights for blacks, in my lifetime. Sorry, but when it went up in 1961 it didn't mean "Love of the South."

In this case, the vast majority of Southerners say that, for them, the flag stands simply for Southern culture as a whole, and as a form of memorial for their ancestors who fought and died during the Civil War. There's really no reason not to believe them.

I believe them, but what you mean is "the vast majority of WHITE Southerners..." Before the current crisis, about 60% of blacks did not share those feelings, and it was them and their ancestors who were oppressed by the STATE through Jim Crow laws those same legislators marched under THAT flag to maintain.

Like I said, I get the divide, but what's frustrating is the seeming unwillingness to actually acknowledge how your state's leaders used THAT particular flag.

It's only really non-Southerners, and African Americans looking for an excuse to be offended, who see it otherwise. Frankly, that's just because they're either reading too much into it, or have a negative view of Southern culture to begin with, and are actively trying to impose their own preconceptions upon the flag, while completely ignoring the ways in which the flag's cultural significance has evolved over the course of recent decades.

That's unfair. I'm a southerner, life long, 51 years and I can't wait to bury that relic of history. I think it gives this entire region a bad name. When I see someone with that flag, I don't know how to tell if they're a proud racist or just love the South. Neither does the rest of the world. The killer didn't pick that flag at random. The meaning he ascribed to it is the exact same meaning ascribed to it by state leaders, elected leaders, governors, legislators, all across the South. Frankly to assume blacks are "looking for an excuse" to be offended by that flag is just a dedicated refusal to see why they might not need to look very hard - all they have to do is look at recent history and how that banner was used.
 
You mean that scum? With any luck he is being charred in the innermost circle of hell right now and hopefully will be forever. He was pure evil scum who wanted to wipe out as many Southern civilians as possible just because he felt like it

Hahaha, if that was his goal he didn't exactly try very hard or do very well. Civilian casualties were extremely low during both the Atlanta Campaign and the March to the Sea. =)
 
Hahaha, if that was his goal he didn't exactly try very hard or do very well. Civilian casualties were extremely low during both the Atlanta Campaign and the March to the Sea. =)

Not like that scum didn't try to force people to starve or freeze to death. NOT a creature I would look up to at all. I have a strong feeling that karma got the last laugh with that one though
 
Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag' | US news | The Guardian
How could it happen that a flag which has always been a symbol of love for the South now represents racism and hatred? I feel sorry for those people who have been sticking confederate flags on their license plates since forever. Now they are all considered bigots and nazis. Maybe it's time to chill up a bit and just forget about one mentally disabled racist who used it as a symbol of his racial hatred? Because it will only distance the southerners from the rest of the country.
Bowing to the PC crowd just like NASCAR.
 
Not like that scum didn't try to force people to starve or freeze to death. NOT a creature I would look up to at all. I have a strong feeling that karma got the last laugh with that one though

Karma? He lived a happy, prosperous, and highly public life before passing away in his own bed at the age of 71.
 
This looks pointless, but I'll play anyway. The Iron Cross had a long and distinguished history prior to and post the Nazi era. It wasn't ever identified AS a uniquely "Nazi" symbol.
Japan adopted their flag in 1870, so it's also not identified with Pearl Harbor except that it was the Japanese who attacked us. And to my knowledge Hawaii doesn't fly the Japanese flag over any memorial to dead Japanese, killed at Pearl Harbor.

But these examples are red herrings so you can avoid the history of the Rebel flag. Your state's elected leaders and mine flew it as a signal of defiance against civil rights for blacks, in my lifetime. Sorry, but when it went up in 1961 it didn't mean "Love of the South."



I believe them, but what you mean is "the vast majority of WHITE Southerners..." Before the current crisis, about 60% of blacks did not share those feelings, and it was them and their ancestors who were oppressed by the STATE through Jim Crow laws those same legislators marched under THAT flag to maintain.

Like I said, I get the divide, but what's frustrating is the seeming unwillingness to actually acknowledge how your state's leaders used THAT particular flag.



That's unfair. I'm a southerner, life long, 51 years and I can't wait to bury that relic of history. I think it gives this entire region a bad name. When I see someone with that flag, I don't know how to tell if they're a proud racist or just love the South. Neither does the rest of the world. The killer didn't pick that flag at random. The meaning he ascribed to it is the exact same meaning ascribed to it by state leaders, elected leaders, governors, legislators, all across the South. Frankly to assume blacks are "looking for an excuse" to be offended by that flag is just a dedicated refusal to see why they might not need to look very hard - all they have to do is look at recent history and how that banner was used.

Isn't it funny when the "flag wavers" talk about its history it is always 19th century history. It's is like the 20th century never happened.
 
Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag' | US news | The Guardian
How could it happen that a flag which has always been a symbol of love for the South now represents racism and hatred? I feel sorry for those people who have been sticking confederate flags on their license plates since forever. Now they are all considered bigots and nazis. Maybe it's time to chill up a bit and just forget about one mentally disabled racist who used it as a symbol of his racial hatred? Because it will only distance the southerners from the rest of the country.

There are a lot of idiots out there that get some worm in their heads and try to make everyone dance their idea of a politically correct polka.
 
to the OP: more people get elected President from the SOUTH than any other region of the country(including the one you are probably peeing yourself to vote for in a year in a half). So the "people of the South" must be doing something right, wouldn't you agree?
 
Because the Confederate South is KNOWN for its role in slavery, segregation, and racial derision.

That's how it went down in the history books - Southerners who cling to it surely are smart enough to know that.

They are also smart enough to understand that this is rather stupid. The confederacy has been gone for a good while and has become folklore, legend and tradition. There are always bigots that want to get this banned or that forbidden and the those people forced to do something else. We used to call them busy bodies. But those were gentler times.
 
No Confederate would vouch for sherman. NONE.

Oh nonsense. For example, General Joseph E. Johnston and Sherman were the closest of friends after the end of the war, Johnston went so far as to serve as Sherman's pallbearer. Despite the cold and rain when he was told to put his hat back on he gave the famous reply "If I were in his place and he were standing here in mine, he would not put on his hat." Nor would the General tolerate any ill to be spoken of Sherman in his presence.
 
I'd rather live in a county named after a person of honor than a drunk. Grant was a merciless drunk most of his life. However he did atone for the wrongs he ordered against the South in the end by threatening to leave his government job if the Supreme Court did not give Arlington back to the Lee family

Yes indeed. Grant is a blemish on presidential history, one of the worst, but then that is besides the point. To the extent that the south was (if it was) fighting for autonomy and the likes, I have no issues with them. But fighting to preserve an institution responsible for so much of their wealth, that's a whole other issue. Had slavery been out of the equation, I would never consider 5-6% of the population worth trading to preserve a union that was merely agreed to with some reservation eighty years earlier worth the trade.
 
Yes indeed. Grant is a blemish on presidential history, one of the worst, but then that is besides the point. To the extent that the south was (if it was) fighting for autonomy and the likes, I have no issues with them. But fighting to preserve an institution responsible for so much of their wealth, that's a whole other issue. Had slavery been out of the equation, I would never consider 5-6% of the population worth trading to preserve a union that was merely agreed to with some reservation eighty years earlier worth the trade.

Slavery was on its way out anyway but it sure as heck was not gonna happen overnight
 
Oh nonsense. For example, General Joseph E. Johnston and Sherman were the closest of friends after the end of the war, Johnston went so far as to serve as Sherman's pallbearer. Despite the cold and rain when he was told to put his hat back on he gave the famous reply "If I were in his place and he were standing here in mine, he would not put on his hat." Nor would the General tolerate any ill to be spoken of Sherman in his presence.

He must not have known who or what his buddy really was.
 

Then you must never point to the horrors committed by others with judgement, for after all, they're just trying to end hostilities quicker. Funny how we always justify our war crimes (the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden) on the merits that we were just ending hostilities quicker and saving lives and suffering. But are so quick to exploit the war crimes of others, yep yep. :roll:
 
Slavery was on its way out anyway but it sure as heck was not gonna happen overnight

Slavery needed to be gone, and it did end overnight with the Union victory. But I still have a huge problem with spending 600,000 American lives to bring it about.
 
Slavery needed to be gone, and it did end overnight with the Union victory. But I still have a huge problem with spending 600,000 American lives to bring it about.

Like I said, it was on its way out anyway. Besides slavery has technically been legal in Mississippi until a couple years ago and they finally ratified the 13th amendment.
 
Hahaha, you're right. General Johnston had less of an idea of his opponent, the man who he defended Georgia against, than you!

Sometimes you really don't know a person until after something happens. Look at the killers who kill for no good reason. People always talk about what great people they were.
 
Then you must never point to the horrors committed by others with judgement, for after all, they're just trying to end hostilities quicker. Funny how we always justify our war crimes (the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden) on the merits that we were just ending hostilities quicker and saving lives and suffering. But are so quick to exploit the war crimes of others, yep yep. :roll:
So you were against the US dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end the World War?
 
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