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Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

Lee was an officer of the North before the war and had to follow the code just like Sherman. The fact that Lee upheld the code and the north did not is telling.



Do you really want to go with Lieber Code? The whole point of the code was that Lincoln wanted to target civilians which was illegal in the 1806 code.

What? Of course I would cite superseding law over invalid law. It was an excellent piece of legal craftsmanship which served as a template for the Geneva Conventions and other treaty iterations. Further, none of this changes the fact that Sherman's campaigns while highly severe against property were perfectly humane in their dealings with the general public. Especially when it came to the liberation of hundreds of thousands of Southern slaves.
 
What? Of course I would cite superseding law over invalid law. It was an excellent piece of legal craftsmanship which served as a template for the Geneva Conventions and other treaty iterations. Further, none of this changes the fact that Sherman's campaigns while highly severe against property were perfectly humane in their dealings with the general public. Especially when it came to the liberation of hundreds of thousands of Southern slaves.

So all those women, and lets be honest men, that were raped and killed were against his will? Is that why Sherman never punished anyone for it?

Your so called code said the following:

Article 15: “military necessity” and its definition allows “destruction of property” – that is, all property can be destroyed if determined to be of “military necessity.”

Article 22: “The principle has been more and more acknowledged that they unarmed citizen is to be spared in person, property and honor as much as the exigencies of war allow.”

Article 23: “Private Citizens are no longer murdered, enslaved or carried off to distant parts and the inoffensive individual is as little disturbed in his private relations as the commander of hostile troops can afford to grant in the overruling demands of vigorous war.”

Notice how they kept giving themselves an out? Lincoln was responsible for that.
 
So all those women, and lets be honest men, that were raped and killed were against his will? Is that why Sherman never punished anyone for it?

Your so called code said the following:

Article 15: “military necessity” and its definition allows “destruction of property” – that is, all property can be destroyed if determined to be of “military necessity.”

Article 22: “The principle has been more and more acknowledged that they unarmed citizen is to be spared in person, property and honor as much as the exigencies of war allow.”

Article 23: “Private Citizens are no longer murdered, enslaved or carried off to distant parts and the inoffensive individual is as little disturbed in his private relations as the commander of hostile troops can afford to grant in the overruling demands of vigorous war.”

Notice how they kept giving themselves an out? Lincoln was responsible for that.

There is little, if any, evidence to indicate that a significant amount of rapes or murders occurred. Luckily as you obliquely note Sherman probably followed the principle underlying the code reasonably well. We can thus be satisfied that Sherman followed the laws of the United States and in doing so managed to shatter the backbone of the Confederacy. =)
 
There were bad actors on both side, but what you are parroting is Lost Cause nonsense.

Let's hear from the acclaimed Southern Historian, Shelby Foote:

"Sherman, in his march across Georgia and up through Carolina, had sixty thousand men with him. I don't know what percentage of them were illiterate. I know there were very few men in there with a delicacy of manners that you'd expect nowadays.

And the whole time he made that march, those sixty thousand men, I had not heard of one case of rape. And that is one of the finest compliments I know you can pay this country and the soldiers it produced that we did not engage in these usual horrendous things that are common in civil war. The fact that we spoke the same language is not what made us close together. In fact, in most civil wars they speak the same language, and they're very savage with each other. But somehow we didn't do that. "


A Visit from Historian Shelby Foote | Humanities

Well it does often depend on a historians bias, his objective and agenda at times.

Generals Sherman and Sheridan: The War Criminals - Riverside Civil War History | Examiner.com
 
Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag' | US news | The Guardian
How could it happen that a flag which has always been a symbol of love for the South now represents racism and hatred? I feel sorry for those people who have been sticking confederate flags on their license plates since forever. Now they are all considered bigots and nazis. Maybe it's time to chill up a bit and just forget about one mentally disabled racist who used it as a symbol of his racial hatred? Because it will only distance the southerners from the rest of the country.

You started with a false premise. The flag hasn't always been a symbol of "love for the South." It was waved by whites protesting civil rights for blacks all across the South. Do a google image search, you'll find the pictures.
 
Dude, you're comparing Shelby Foote to a Sons of Confederate Veterans blogger and a web designer - not a historian - who "has read hundreds of books about the Civil War." ?

Seriously?


lol

Yeah, good fellows these.

The young bloods of the South; sons of planters, lawyers about towns, good billiard players and sportsmen, men who never did any work and never will. War suits them. They are splendid riders, first rate shots and utterly reckless. These men must all be killed or employed by us before we can hope for peace....Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman

The more Indians we can kill this year the fewer we will need to kill the next, because the more I see of the Indians the more convinced I become that they must either all be killed or be maintained as a species of pauper. Their attempts at civilization is ridiculous... Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman

Look to the South and you who went with us through that land can best say if they have not been fearfully punished. Mourning is in every household, desolation written in broad characters across the whole face of their country, cities in ashes and fields laid waste, their commerce gone, their system of labor annihilated and destroyed. Ruin and poverty and distress everywhere, and now pestilence adding to the very cap sheaf of their stack of misery...Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman, the man who left a 60 mile wide, 300 mile long path of death and desolation across GA and up through SC.

I have destroyed over 2,000 barns filled with wheat, hay and farming implements; over 70 mills filled with flour and wheat, and have driven in front of the Army over 4,000 head of stock and have killed and issued to the troops not less than 3,000 sheep. Tomorrow I will continue the destruction down to Fisher’s Mill. When this is completed, the Valley from Winchester to Staunton, 92 miles, will have but little in it for man or beast.....from an Oct. 7, 1864 report to Gen. Grant from Gen. Sheridan.
 
So secession was essentially about taxes? I've never heard that one before. Taxes on everything or just specific things?

Amazing. Tariffs were at the time of recession at a recently low ebb, but for some reason..... can't figure it out, the South seceded before Lincoln ever took office. Wonder what that reason could be.....hmmmm....

Mississippi:

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.
 
You started with a false premise. The flag hasn't always been a symbol of "love for the South." It was waved by whites protesting civil rights for blacks all across the South. Do a google image search, you'll find the pictures.

byron-thomas-confederate-flag.jpg


Heres an intern who works for the only current black senator

Byron Thomas Sends Email Asking Staff To Say Pledge of Allegiance | News One
 
:lamo Considering that I wasn't alive back then I expect nothing. But as for today, I expect people to be honest about why southern states seceded and not sugar coat it. It was about slaves which when reduced to its lowest common denominator equates to property rights which equates to revenue which equates to loss of free labor towhich Whites at the time preferred to keep rather than let go. And they fought a war in order to preserve that right, that status quo, that way of life.

And they lost. And as such, their beloved battle flag needs to come down as it acts as an unpleasant reminder of oppression to a people. Other than keeping it for Confederate Memorial sites/events/holiday or personal, individual sentimental reasons, there's no other reason for keeping the Confederate Flag waving over state property.

In any case, I'm glad to see that flag coming down all across the south. It's long overdue.

I agree with all that, but we really don't have to refight the Civil War or agree on its causes. The more relevant history of the Rebel flag is in the 1950s and 1960s when it was raised by SC while they were fighting against extending basic civil rights to blacks.

Moving this discussion back to the 1860s just does more to obscure or bury the history of the flag in my lifetime. One example:

Corbis-FP001840.jpg
 
Heres an intern who works for the only current black senator

Byron Thomas Sends Email Asking Staff To Say Pledge of Allegiance | News One

What does that have to do with anything. I know and have acknowledged that the flag means different things to different people. Only about 70% of blacks view it as a symbol of racism.

But to say that flag has "always" represented love for the South is just flat out contradicted by historical evidence anyone can find with a two second Google image search.

Let me google that for you

Click on images.
 
Given the fact that the Confederate battle flag was historically the flag of Robert E. Lee's own Army of Northern Virginia, it actually honors him and the men who fought under him more than it does the actual Confederacy itself, or its cause. Again, the simple fact of the matter is that this issue is no where near as cut and dry as people like to make out.

That's an argument that could have been made in good faith but for the use of that same flag by whites protesting civil rights for blacks in the 50s and 60s. I just don't see how that flag can overcome its use for such an indefensible cause while so many who suffered under Jim Crow are still living.

Bottom line is this guy just needed one - the sign or the flag. Everyone understands that the guys with him flying the Rebel flag are on his side, and marching against basic civil rights for blacks in their state.

FP001194.jpg
 
That's an argument that could have been made in good faith but for the use of that same flag by whites protesting civil rights for blacks in the 50s and 60s. I just don't see how that flag can overcome its use for such an indefensible cause while so many who suffered under Jim Crow are still living.

Bottom line is this guy just needed one - the sign or the flag. Everyone understands that the guys with him flying the Rebel flag are on his side, and marching against basic civil rights for blacks in their state.

View attachment 67186878

The Iron Cross has been adopted by a number of white supremacist and ultra-nationalist groups as well. That doesn't stop it from being a symbol of military honor in German culture.

The Bundeswehr actually still uses it as their official emblem to this day.

400px-Bundeswehr_Kreuz_Black.svg.png
 
Yeah, good fellows these.

...Let's have a little look at your quotes. That's what a person dedicated to the accurate historical record does.

This one:

Look to the South and you who went with us through that land can best say if they have not been fearfully punished. Mourning is in every household, desolation written in broad characters across the whole face of their country, cities in ashes and fields laid waste, their commerce gone, their system of labor annihilated and destroyed. Ruin and poverty and distress everywhere, and now pestilence adding to the very cap sheaf of their stack of misery...Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman, the man who left a 60 mile wide, 300 mile long path of death and desolation across GA and up through SC.

Curiously, cannot be found with an attribution as to where and when he said that. Doesn't that raise flags? All I see is this passed around on some pages on Southern supporting blogs, and never with *where* it came from.

But why is it after plugging parts of that quote in, the source is not found? Maybe you can help me find an official record of that being an accurate WTS quote. (I'm not doubting that it *may* be...)

Be a good chap and help me out...

OOp...UPDATE! I found a source. Finally. One citation from a 1947 book: The South During Reconstruction, 1865-1877

It notes the quote is from 2 1/2 years after the war -- in an address to former members of his Command -- and I see your sources leave off this important line at the end:
sherman2_zps3khwy9nd.jpg


It was in sympathy to the Southerners, and to the former slaveholders!


And this quote of yours:

I have destroyed over 2,000 barns filled with wheat, hay and farming implements; over 70 mills filled with flour and wheat, and have driven in front of the Army over 4,000 head of stock and have killed and issued to the troops not less than 3,000 sheep. Tomorrow I will continue the destruction down to Fisher’s Mill. When this is completed, the Valley from Winchester to Staunton, 92 miles, will have but little in it for man or beast.....from an Oct. 7, 1864 report to Gen. Grant from Gen. Sheridan.

It is noted it is from a October 7th 1864 Report.

But, hmmm...what did that report actually say?
sherman_zpsbxanyaut.jpg

American Civil War: The Definitive Encyclopedia

https://books.google.com/books?id=9...ywOZ6bnwAw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=true

Nothing beyond what that first line says.

You see, when I see quotes that can only be found on Lost Cause or New-Confederate and/or sympathizing cites, it always raises my hinky meter.

It should raise yours too.

Oh, one other thing, don't ever, ever, ever take the word of anything that comes out of the White Nationalist Thomas DiLorenzo's mouth or pen. No reputable historian has an ounce of respect for him, North or South.

That's where a lot of this mix-mashed, out of context (sometimes wholly fabricated) junk emanates from.

Now, that is not to say Sherman and the Union Army did not engage in a brutal WAR - as both sides did (with the South instigating it) -- but if you're going to be accurate, at least look to Academic and reliable sources.
 
The Iron Cross has been adopted by a number of white supremacist and ultra-nationalist groups as well. That doesn't stop it from being a symbol of military honor in German culture.

The Bundeswehr actually still uses it as their official emblem to this day.

The problem is the Rebel flag wasn't just adopted by fringe groups - SC few it over the state capital. Georgia incorporated it into their state flag. Wallace appeared with it in the background while speaking in defense of segregation and white supremacy in Alabama. It was all over the Dixiecrat convention in 1948. These are elected leaders using it as a symbol of defiance against GD yankees and liberals pushing civil rights for blacks.

It's just how that flag was used. At least, those defending the Rebel flag today have to acknowledge that RECENT history and somehow deal with it.
 
That flag is the Dixiecrat flag of segregation not the Confederate flag.
I wish they would rename my county to Grant county instead o the that loser Lee.

I'd rather live in a county named after a person of honor than a drunk. Grant was a merciless drunk most of his life. However he did atone for the wrongs he ordered against the South in the end by threatening to leave his government job if the Supreme Court did not give Arlington back to the Lee family
 
...Let's have a little look at your quotes. That's what a person dedicated to the accurate historical record does.

This one:



Curiously, cannot be found with an attribution as to where and when he said that. Doesn't that raise flags? All I see is this passed around on some pages on Southern supporting blogs, and never with *where* it came from.

But why is it after plugging parts of that quote in, the source is not found? Maybe you can help me find an official record of that being an accurate WTS quote. (I'm not doubting that it *may* be...)

Be a good chap and help me out...

OOp...UPDATE! I found a source. Finally. One citation from a 1947 book: The South During Reconstruction, 1865-1877

It notes the quote is from 2 1/2 years after the war -- in an address to former members of his Command -- and I see your sources leave off this important line at the end:
sherman2_zps3khwy9nd.jpg


It was in sympathy to the Southerners, and to the former slaveholders!


And this quote of yours:



It is noted it is from a October 7th 1864 Report.

But, hmmm...what did that report actually say?
sherman_zpsbxanyaut.jpg

American Civil War: The Definitive Encyclopedia

https://books.google.com/books?id=9...ywOZ6bnwAw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=true

Nothing beyond what that first line says.

You see, when I see quotes that can only be found on Lost Cause or New-Confederate and/or sympathizing cites, it always raises my hinky meter.

It should raise yours too.

Oh, one other thing, don't ever, ever, ever take the word of anything that comes out of the White Nationalist Thomas DiLorenzo's mouth or pen. No reputable historian has an ounce of respect for him, North or South.

That's where a lot of this mix-mashed, out of context (sometimes wholly fabricated) junk emanates from.

Now, that is not to say Sherman and the Union Army did not engage in a brutal WAR - as both sides did (with the South instigating it) -- but if you're going to be accurate, at least look to Academic and reliable sources.

The perpetrator of the crimes was expressing sympathy for the victims, years after the war. Oh, now that's rich. Targeting civilian food sources to break their spirit and support of their government is not heroic. Sorry to stand in stark disagreement with you on that.
 
The problem is the Rebel flag wasn't just adopted by fringe groups - SC few it over the state capital. Georgia incorporated it into their state flag. Wallace appeared with it in the background while speaking in defense of segregation and white supremacy in Alabama. It was all over the Dixiecrat convention in 1948. These are elected leaders using it as a symbol of defiance against GD yankees and liberals pushing civil rights for blacks.

It's just how that flag was used. At least, those defending the Rebel flag today have to acknowledge that RECENT history and somehow deal with it.

And the Iron Cross was used by the Nazis, and the Japan's "Rising Sun" flag (which is actually pretty damn similar to the 'Confederate flag' in terms of cultural significance) was used as the battle flag of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy during WW2.

Just because bad people may have adopted a symbol at a certain point, doesn't mean that they taint it forever. Symbols are ultimately completely arbitrary. They mean whatever a given people say they mean.

In this case, the vast majority of Southerners say that, for them, the flag stands simply for Southern culture as a whole, and as a form of memorial for their ancestors who fought and died during the Civil War. There's really no reason not to believe them.

It's only really non-Southerners, and African Americans looking for an excuse to be offended, who see it otherwise. Frankly, that's just because they're either reading too much into it, or have a negative view of Southern culture to begin with, and are actively trying to impose their own preconceptions upon the flag, while completely ignoring the ways in which the flag's cultural significance has evolved over the course of recent decades.
 
Because I adore Sherman. He understood what needed to be done to break the will of Southern resistance and shattered the Confederacy. Furthermore his legacy has been clouded by the smears of several generations of Lost Cause historians. Luckily the historical record is increasingly being rectified.

You mean that scum? With any luck he is being charred in the innermost circle of hell right now and hopefully will be forever. He was pure evil scum who wanted to wipe out as many Southern civilians as possible just because he felt like it
 
Such ignorance is unbelievable! I took Civil War History at the University of Houston during my senior year. The U of H is in the South, by the way, and our professor said the one overriding issue was slavery.

Of course your beliefs and sources are the correct ones and everyone else is wrong. :roll: :3oops:

You might be able to sell your merchandise as fertilizer but not history.

I am well aware Houston is in the South. However I also know the climate in colleges and universities today is to whitewash history and turn students communist. Look around its happening everywhere.
 
The perpetrator of the crimes was expressing sympathy for the victims, years after the war. Oh, now that's rich. Targeting civilian food sources to break their spirit and support of their government is not heroic. Sorry to stand in stark disagreement with you on that.

 
I am well aware Houston is in the South. However I also know the climate in colleges and universities today is to whitewash history and turn students communist. Look around its happening everywhere.

Only you know the truth; aren't we lucky to have you here to teach us. :roll:
 
I'd rather live in a county named after a person of honor than a drunk. Grant was a merciless drunk most of his life. However he did atone for the wrongs he ordered against the South in the end by threatening to leave his government job if the Supreme Court did not give Arlington back to the Lee family

I guess even a drunk could defeat a ragtag army like the Confederate especially when led by a loser like Lee. You are right though Lee did surrender honorably.
 
I guess even a drunk could defeat a ragtag army like the Confederate especially when led by a loser like Lee. You are right though Lee did surrender honorably.

The South's luck started to change when we lost Stonewall at Chancellorsville. Had that not happened, Gettysburg might have been the end of it and the yanks would have left us be.
 
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