• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

As opposed to what, voluntary economic ruin and decades worth of depression?

What on Earth did you expect?

Threatening someone's livelihood and way of life has always been one of the quickest ways to come to blows with them.

:lamo Considering that I wasn't alive back then I expect nothing. But as for today, I expect people to be honest about why southern states seceded and not sugar coat it. It was about slaves which when reduced to its lowest common denominator equates to property rights which equates to revenue which equates to loss of free labor towhich Whites at the time preferred to keep rather than let go. And they fought a war in order to preserve that right, that status quo, that way of life.

And they lost. And as such, their beloved battle flag needs to come down as it acts as an unpleasant reminder of oppression to a people. Other than keeping it for Confederate Memorial sites/events/holiday or personal, individual sentimental reasons, there's no other reason for keeping the Confederate Flag waving over state property.

In any case, I'm glad to see that flag coming down all across the south. It's long overdue.
 
Last edited:
But Lincoln ultimately thought slavery was horrible for slaves and masters alike, unlike the South, and that imo is the moral high ground. And you say he believed AA's were inferior to whites, how could he understand the potential of African Americans when they rarely had the chance to prove it?

You could claim almost literally all of these same things about Robert E. Lee. While he was a slave owner, he was known for being an unusually kind one, who ran an estate where the slaves were reportedly "their master's master." He also had some very serious religious and personal misgivings about the institution of slavery.

He simply happened to feel that the institution was too deeply rooted to be ripped out overnight, and that attempting to do so would harm whites and blacks alike as such. He also felt that it would be immoral for him to take up arms against his own homeland, so he sided with the Confederacy instead of the Union.

Given the fact that the Confederate battle flag was historically the flag of Robert E. Lee's own Army of Northern Virginia, it actually honors him and the men who fought under him more than it does the actual Confederacy itself, or its cause. Again, the simple fact of the matter is that this issue is no where near as cut and dry as people like to make out.
 
Last edited:
God help us all if she does

Not a fan of diversity, huh? A female with a touch of dot Indian I believe...cant have that....unless she had a D by her name of course, right?
 
You could claim almost literally all of these same things about Robert E. Lee. While he was a slave owner, he was known for being an unusually kind one, who ran an estate where the slaves were reportedly "their master's master." He also had some very serious religious and personal misgivings about the institution of slavery.

He simply happened to feel that the institution was too deeply rooted to be ripped out overnight, and that attempting to do so would harm whites and blacks alike as such. He also felt that it would be immoral for him to take up arms against his own homeland, so he sided with the Confederacy instead of the Union.

Given the fact that the Confederate battle flag was actually the flag of Robert E. Lee's own Army of Northern Virginia, it actually honors him and the men who fought under him more than it does the actual Confederacy itself, or its cause. Again, the simple fact of the matter is that this issue is no where near as cut and dry as people like to make out.

The bottom line is Lee took his talents to the Confederacy and more than likely prolonged both the war and slavery. I honestly don't see a civil war without the issue of slavery.
 
But Lincoln ultimately thought slavery was horrible for slaves and masters alike, unlike the South, and that imo is the moral high ground. And you say he believed AA's were inferior to whites, how could he understand the potential of African Americans when they rarely had the chance to prove it?

Blacks proved their potential to be slave owners at that time.
 
:lamo Considering that I wasn't alive back then I expect nothing. But as for today, I expect people to be honest about why southern states seceded and not sugar coat it. It was about slaves which when reduced to its lowest common denominator equates to property rights which equates to revenue which equates to loss of free labor towhich Whites at the time preferred to keep rather than let go. And they fought a war in order to preserve that right, that status quo, that way of life.

At the "lowest common denominator" level, it boils down to economics, and the conflict of interests which existed between the North and South.

The South ultimately rebelled for reasons very similar to those of the American colonies during the Revolution. They felt that a Northern government, in which they had wholly inadequate representation (after all, literally no Southern states voted for Lincoln's presidency) was making unilateral decisions about their future and their livelihoods, without the best interests of the South in mind. They decided to push the issue of voluntary secession from the Union - something which was widely held to be a Constitutional right at the time - in order to correct this state of affairs.

Were they ultimately correct in doing so? No.

However, let's not pretend that the issue revolved around nothing besides irrational Southern hated of African-Americans. That simply wasn't the case.

Plenty of Southerners (Lee included) had misgivings about slavery. They simply wanted to address the issue on their own terms.

And they lost. And as such, their beloved battle flag needs to come down as it acts as an unpleasant reminder of oppression to a people. Other than keeping it for Confederate Memorial sites/events/holiday or personal, individual sentimental reasons, there's no other reason for keeping the Confederate Flag waving over state property.

In any case, I'm glad to see that flag coming down all across the south. It's long overdue.

A) It IS being primarily flown over war memorials, and by private persons. The Far Left and PC authoritarians in general are trying to deny Southerners even that right.

B) By this logic, are we to assume that Native Americans should "just get over it" and throw away their cultural heritage as well? They "lost" a Hell of a lot worse than the South ever did.
 
Last edited:
The bottom line is Lee took his talents to the Confederacy and more than likely prolonged both the war and slavery. I honestly don't see a civil war without the issue of slavery.

He was a fundamentally decent man, who did what he thought was right.

He fought competently, and with honor against a vastly superior foe, and actually managed to give them pause in doing so. He also made sure that his troops behaved themselves while in enemy territory - as opposed to the North, which basically reaved and pillaged its way across the entire Southeastern region.

Regardless of whether he was ultimately right or wrong in doing these things, I will hold none of them against him, or the flag he fought under.
 
Last edited:
He was a fundamentally decent man, who did what he thought was right.

He fought competently, and with honor against a vastly superior foe, and actually managed to give them pause in doing so. He also made sure that his troops behaved themselves while in enemy territory - as opposed to the North, which basically reaved and pillaged its way across the entire Southeastern region.

Regardless of whether he was ultimately right or wrong in doing these things, I will hold none of them against him, or the flag he fought under.

Indeed. I'm not a fan of Lee, but burning your enemies cities to the ground and killing innocents is disgraceful. How many women do you think Sherman's men raped as they made their way across the south? Does any of the northern supporters want to guess? There are estimates out there if people are interested.
 
For all the completely valid expressions of southern culture...

Southern Sweet Tea
Palmetto plants
Edgar Allen Poe
The Virginia Possum

It's something of a surprise that Confederacy supporters choose a battle flag used to denote subjugation of a people in a war that tore this nation apart.
 
At the "lowest common denominator" level, it boils down to economics, and the conflict of interests which existed between the North and South

about slavery

The South ultimately rebelled for reasons very similar to those of the American colonies during the Revolution. They felt that a Northern government, in which they had wholly inadequate representation (after all, literally no Southern states voted for Lincoln's presidency) was making unilateral decisions

about slavery

Plenty of Southerners (Lee included) had misgivings about slavery. They simply wanted to address the issue on their own terms.


by extending slavery into new states
 
For all the completely valid expressions of southern culture...

Southern Sweet Tea
Palmetto plants
Edgar Allen Poe
The Virginia Possum

It's something of a surprise that Confederacy supporters choose a battle flag used to denote subjugation of a people in a war that tore this nation apart.

The nation was barely together as it was people. The fact is the founders didn't tiptoe around issues for little reason, but because that is what was called for to keep things moving.
 
The flags of Britain, Portugal and Spain ( among other ) flew on the ships that brought slaves to the new world.

Are those " racist symbols " too ?

Any of those flags flying over our capitols?
 
Wondering how this will fair come next election for her?
 
Not a fan of diversity, huh? A female with a touch of dot Indian I believe...cant have that....unless she had a D by her name of course, right?

Tap race card, play two mana.
 
...
The South ultimately rebelled for reasons very similar to those of the American colonies during the Revolution. They felt that a Northern government, in which they had wholly inadequate representation
Too funny. The South was *overrepresented* in Congress as they got to count their near four million slaves, that had no representation, no vote - that was literally only property -- as 3/5ths apportionment / representaion

(after all, literally no Southern states voted for Lincoln's presidency) ...
It sort of mattered that literally no Southern states ...

listen up now: even allowed Lincoln to be on the ballot.

How's that for audacity?
 
Too funny. The South was *overrepresented* in Congress as they got to count their near four million slaves, that had no representation, no vote - that was literally only property -- as 3/5ths apportionment / representaion

It sort of mattered that literally no Southern states ...

listen up now: even allowed Lincoln to be on the ballot.

Any of this changes what, exactly?

The simple fact of the matter is that the South was being muscled out of electoral and legislative processes of the Union. They felt they could do better than that.

The American Revolution really wasn't fought for any reason particularly more noble. :shrug:
 
Not even close. The Confederate flag (all 5 of them)_ flew over exactly 0 slave ships. Even the North had slaves. It took the 13th amendment to free ALL of the slaves since Lincoln's joke of an "emancipation proclamation" only freed slaves in the South. The slave trade had been going on forever, and the north only bothered with it when they realized that if the South kicked their butts like they were already doing, then westward expansion was going to be a huge problem for the north because the southern states would expand even further west and then the north would be a supreme disadvantage.

That "loser" flag was all but forgotten until the civil rights act was passed and then it popped up all over the South. It has been given a new meaning and it is about repression not history.
 
That "loser" flag was all but forgotten until the civil rights act was passed and then it popped up all over the South. It has been given a new meaning and it is about repression not history.

False.

Confederate-Veterans-with-Flag.jpg


hsvreunion.jpg


It was regularly flown in the South in support of Confederate veterans right up until the last of them died in the 1940s and 1950s.
 
False.

Confederate-Veterans-with-Flag.jpg


hsvreunion.jpg


It was regularly flown in the South in support of Confederate veterans right up until the last of them died in the 1940s and 1950s.

LOL It was occasionally used in reunions and funerals.....not over State Capitals. You are dead wrong and need to learn your history.

South Carolina's confederate flag hasn't been flying since the Civil War. The flag wasn’t prominently displayed in the South until southern politicians began using it in their campaigns; and South Carolina didn’t start flying the flag at its state capitol until 1962, a century after the war began.

We spoke with historian David Goldfield, author of Still Fighting the Civil War, about the flag’s revival.

Why did the the Confederate flag reappear so long after the war?

The Confederate battle flag made its reappearance following the end of World War II. A group of southern states seceded from the Democratic party and ran their own ticket, the Dixiecrats, and the Confederate battle flag was very prominent with the Dixiecrat campaign in the 1948 presidential election. Before ‘48, it had appeared occasionally at football games at southern universities, and usually at soldiers’ reunions or commemorations of Civil War battles; but other than that, it really was not a prominent feature of the South.

Once the Dixiecrats got a hold of it as a matter of defiance against their Democratic colleagues in the north and the African Americans in their midst, then the Confederate battle flag took on a new life, or a second life. In the 1950s, as the Civil Rights Movement built up steam, you began to see more and more public displays of the Confederate battle flag, to the point where the state of Georgia in 1956 redesigned their state flag to include the Confederate battle flag.
Why the Confederate Flag Made a 20th Century Comeback
 
Last edited:
LOL It was occasionally used in reunions and funerals.....

And parades, and yearly anniversaries of certain battles, and etca, etca. Either way, it was a common aspect of Southern culture all throughout the era.

FYI, the flag was returned to the capital building because of the 100 year anniversary of the start of the Civil War. There is no direct evidence indicating that it had anything at all to do with segregation.

Frankly, the flag's not even flying over the capital building anymore anyway. It's over a war memorial for Confederate soldiers.
 
And parades, and yearly anniversaries of certain battles, and etca, etca. Either way, it was a common aspect of Southern culture all throughout the era.

FYI, the flag was returned to the capital building because of the 100 year anniversary of the start of the Civil War. There is no direct evidence indicating that it had anything at all to do with segregation.

Frankly, the flag's not even flying over the capital building anymore anyway. It's over a war memorial for Confederate soldiers.

Where it frankly became even more visible than where it was. Read the link I gave you and learn. It really is the flag of the Dixiecrats and not the Civil War. It is time to put that nonsense away for good.. Historians are your friend.
 
Last edited:
Where it frankly became even more visible that where it was. Read the link I gave you and learn. It really is the flag of the Dixiecrats and not the Civil War.. Historians are your friend.

Again, the official reason was the 100 year anniversary of the Civil War. Any claim to the contrary is ultimately conjecture and hearsay.

Either way, the flag certainly doesn't stand for segregation now, and doesn't fly over the capital anymore. Who the Hell cares?
 
Back
Top Bottom