Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

Manc Skipper said:

It's that very boat anchor that keeps Germany's exports outside Europe relatively cheap. Your Mercedes would have been more expensive in Deutchmarks, and they wouldn't sell so many abroad.

Click to expand...

False. The DM was much weaker than the Euro is even today.

Chagos said:

OK, that made me laugh.

You don't know Greece much, eh?

Click to expand...

Does it surprise that they would have similar features living in the same geographic area that would have been visited by the same historical people's (Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Arabs)? If you think I'm wrong: you are kidding yourself.

Add:

I know what Mediterranean people's look like. I'm related to Greeks and I went to college with many Arabs.

stonewall50 said:

Does it surprise that they would have similar features living in the same geographic area that would have been visited by the same historical people's (Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Arabs)? If you think I'm wrong: you are kidding yourself.

Add:

I know what Mediterranean people's look like. I'm related to Greeks and I went to college with many Arabs.

Click to expand...

Hmmm....they remind me of Austrians....

Andalublue said:

Hmmm....they remind me of Austrians....

View attachment 67186984

Click to expand...

Lol

My point was that Greece is to an Aran what Mexico is for an El Salvadoran...you know...rather than Connecticut to an El Salvadoran

stonewall50 said:

Lol

My point was that Greece is to an Aran what Mexico is for an El Salvadoran...you know...rather than Connecticut to an El Salvadoran

Click to expand...

Aran?

I do hope you don't mean 'Aryan', the mythological race definer.

stonewall50 said:

Does it surprise that they would have similar features living in the same geographic area that would have been visited by the same historical people's (Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Arabs)? If you think I'm wrong: you are kidding yourself.

Add:

I know what Mediterranean people's look like. I'm related to Greeks and I went to college with many Arabs.

Click to expand...

Well, I have no problem distinguishing. The one who ain't stoned to the gills is probably the Arab.:mrgreen:

Seriously, Greeks are in their majority Indo-European still where Arabs are semitic. Features may overlap but seldom all of them.

Your two examples, aside from the dope, don't look alike to me at all.

But far more important than whether you or I can make the distinction, Greeks can.

And Mediterranean people are manifold with just as many distinctive features. So if you know what they ALL look like, congratulations.

Chagos said:

Your analysis of Spain is grossly wrong. Where not uninfluenced by the US origin crisis, they'd created their own real estate bubble to the point of insanity and it finally burst. The Spanish crash was to the far larger extent of own making.

As is the current debt crisis of Greece.

That outside myopia in instituting more adequate measures payed a role is not under dispute where I am concerned. But this constant "it was solely everybody else's fault" is childish.

Click to expand...

Your analysis of Spain is grossly wrong. There was no Spanish housing bubble, or to be more accurate, the Spanish housing bubble ended a few decades ago. There was a global housing bubble, which saw real estate and construction booms in countries all across the globe. Those housing bubbles were all driven in large part by the exact same sorts of speculation by large financial institutions. The economy contracted quite rapidly, and the troubles were exacerbated by idiotic austerity measures imposed by outside forces and by absurd Spanish law which means people are still obligated to pay off loans on properties that have been foreclosed on and they no longer own.

So since this wasn't "everyone else's fault," I am not sure who everyone else is, whose fault is it? Is this another one of the moronic individual responsibility tropes? Yes the Spanish and Greeks are responsible for global economic failures, and need to own up to their failures. The average Spaniard and Greek needs to be held accountable in particular, as they wanted houses, and that is what they get for wanting houses. Economic catastrophe and debt servitude. It is what they deserve for existing within the confines of the global financial system.

Chagos said:

Seriously, Greeks are in their majority Indo-European still where Arabs are semitic. Features may overlap but seldom all of them.

Click to expand...

They are all Caucasians.

Andalublue said:

Aran?

I do hope you don't mean 'Aryan', the mythological race definer.

Click to expand...

Arab. I need to prostrate myself in front of the typo nazis and beg forgiveness and hope I don't get sent to one of their labor camps.

Chagos said:

I've pointed out elsewhere that management of the common currency is not decided in Athens and not by Greece alone. The same thing applies to whether a community of nations helps an ailing member out and how. I don't recall that the rest of Europe got to vote in that particular referendum, despite being affected by it.

But believe you me, it'll vote in other instances. Not so much in referendums but in equally sovereign parliaments.

As to calling others sycophants (in return), go look in the mirror. This isn't class struggle, no matter how you and your opposition wants to turn it that way.

If I were Greek and had you championing my cause, I'd stick a sock in yer gob. An elephant size one, the sock not the gob.

Click to expand...

While I enjoy the witty banter, gobs and socks, how amusing.... :fart I have to say, what in the world does class struggle have to do with anything? You talk about childishness in your previous post, but it is simplistic and childish thinking to imagine that one must either accept the dictates of the neoliberal capitalist order, or one must be a Marxist advocating revolution. I am simply advocating sensible and effective economic policy, instead of bad economic policy and simplistic moralization. There is a reason that almost every economist of any value opposes the extreme authority measures powerful Eurozone countries are imposing on the periphery, and it has nothing to do with class struggle.

stonewall50 said:

Arab. I need to prostrate myself in front of the typo nazis and beg forgiveness and hope I don't get sent to one of their labor camps.

Click to expand...

Well, the convoluted nature of your analogy could have made either interpretation of your typo possible, although I'd point out that Greece has never had any major Arab colonisation, invasion or overlordship.

Chagos said:

Well, I have no problem distinguishing. The one who ain't stoned to the gills is probably the Arab.:mrgreen:

Seriously, Greeks are in their majority Indo-European still where Arabs are semitic. Features may overlap but seldom all of them.

Your two examples, aside from the dope, don't look alike to me at all.

But far more important than whether you or I can make the distinction, Greeks can.

And Mediterranean people are manifold with just as many distinctive features. So if you know what they ALL look like, congratulations.

Click to expand...

What are you talking about? Indo-European and Semitic are language groups, what in the world would that have to do with someones features? Israelis are also part of the Semitic language group, but all the Israelis of European descent look like any other European does.

Frodly said:

Your analysis of Spain is grossly wrong. There was no Spanish housing bubble, or to be more accurate, the Spanish housing bubble ended a few decades ago...........

Click to expand...

You're another one of those whose ranting opinionatedness is exceeded only by their ignorance, as is usual with your ilk.

I AM in Spain and was then and I watched it all from within. I saw the reasons for it as well, just as I watched the corruption, local, regional and national.

You know nothing on Spain. In fact one might as well stop after "nothing".

The rest of your post I won't dignify with any address.

Now go away and bother someone else, I've completed my years long stint of tolerance for annoying brats decades ago.

stonewall50 said:

Arab. I need to prostrate myself in front of the typo nazis and beg forgiveness and hope I don't get sent to one of their labor camps.

Click to expand...

Report in tomorrow morning at 9 sharp.

And bring your own whip, Greece is not the only country that can't afford to buy them.

:mrgreen:

Chagos said:

You're another one of those whose ranting opinionatedness is exceeded only by their ignorance, as is usual with your ilk.

I AM in Spain and was then and I watched it all from within. I saw the reasons for it as well, just as I watched the corruption, local, regional and national.

You know nothing on Spain. In fact one might as well stop after "nothing".

The rest of your post I won't dignify with any address.

Now go away and bother someone else, I've completed my years long stint of tolerance for annoying brats decades ago.

Click to expand...

That was a lot of words to say the same thing, you have nothing substantive to say. Just stick with that. You have nothing substantive to say, so you resort to ad hominem and appeal to your own authority based on the fact that you "ARE in Spain." Rarely have I ever seen such an absurd appeal to authority in my life. Your current place of residence couldn't be less relevant. Your complete lack of economic understanding is what matters, and it shines through, since you have failed to present a single substantive argument.

Andalublue said:

They are all Caucasians.

Click to expand...

Indeed. Not that any of it matters.

Nevertheless people of a long biological history in one and the same geographical location, often show a distinctiveness of some features differing from those of places further way. Probably (though) with nearly as many exceptions to the "rule" as confirmations.

But jihadists are easy to spot, the girls scarper around in walking tents and the men can hardly walk upright, what with all the Semtex they're carrying in their waistcoats.

:mrgreen:

Andalublue said:

Well, the convoluted nature of your analogy could have made either interpretation of your typo possible, although I'd point out that Greece has never had any major Arab colonisation, invasion or overlordship.

Click to expand...

Indeed not.

Twere those filthy Turks that really sucked.

Frodly said:

That was a lot of words to say the same thing, you have nothing substantive to say. Just stick with that. You have nothing substantive to say, so you resort to ad hominem and appeal to your own authority based on the fact that you "ARE in Spain." Rarely have I ever seen such an absurd appeal to authority in my life. Your current place of residence couldn't be less relevant. Your complete lack of economic understanding is what matters, and it shines through, since you have failed to present a single substantive argument.

Click to expand...

You still here (on my monitor)?


Shoo!

Whereas this detracts at least geographically from the topic, to those that do not share Andalublue's and my "totally irrelevant" place of residence and the lack of economic understanding of our country's situation that must subsequently result from this irrelevance, here's something from 2012

Spain real estate ‘madness’ continues despite burst housing bubble | Financial Post

To wit (excerpt):

“It’s a small-scale example of the madness that gripped the whole real estate industry.” In the stages of death of a real estate boom, Spain is still in denial......................... They continue to build even with 2 million homes vacant around the country, new airports that never saw a single flight being mothballed, and property appraisers and banks reporting values have fallen only about 22%, said Encinar, who estimates the real decline is probably at least twice that.

Click to expand...

Encinar was mistaken, the decline was/is far bigger.

Now back on topic.

Andalublue said:

Well, the convoluted nature of your analogy could have made either interpretation of your typo possible, although I'd point out that Greece has never had any major Arab colonisation, invasion or overlordship.

Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting that it would be invaded, colonized, or overlorded. I believe I said "switching station."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/25/europe/greece-terrorism-hub/

It is the Atlanta for Terrorism. Sorry. I don't know why I like using analogies. But to be more serious: it is a hub. A good place to change papers. A crippled government, and a lot of people you could easily blend with if you so desired.

Chagos said:

Whereas this detracts at least geographically from the topic, to those that do not share Andalublue's and my "totally irrelevant" place of residence and the lack of economic understanding of our country's situation that must subsequently result from this irrelevance, here's something from 2012

Spain real estate ‘madness’ continues despite burst housing bubble | Financial Post

To wit (excerpt): Encinar was mistaken, the decline was/is far bigger.

Now back on topic.

Click to expand...

Generally I agree with you, although I'd call the 'Housing Bubble' a construction bubble, since it was also those ill-advised infrastructure investments - add to unused airports, toll-roads that no one uses, hundreds of theatres, sports halls, museums, aquaria and thematic tourist attractions that could never pay their way and which now sit idle because no one can afford to operate them - that caused the problem here. The Spanish economy, despite all that talking-up that the PP and its EU supporters are engaged in, is not in recovery. Unemployment has shown no sign of significant falls, and the business environment hasn't improved one bit; I know I've just started a company and having the experience to compare Spanish and British bureaucracy, there's no comparison.

Corruption is as bad as ever and there's a new major, multi-million scam or fraud - usually of public funds, usually by conservative politicians - coming to light every week. The latest is a scam devised and carried out by the director of the Alhambra Palace (don't forget, all such public posts are political appointments), here in Granada, with kick-backs, over-billing and diversion of funds to private accounts. It never stops, and if Podemos is to make major inroads at the coming elections, it won't be because Spaniards want to emulate the example of Syriza in Greece, but because the corruption of the main two traditional parties has destroyed the public's confidence in establishment politicians and the big businessmen who are their clients.

stonewall50 said:

It is the Atlanta for Terrorism. Sorry. I don't know why I like using analogies.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'd get a handle on that if I were you. 'Atlanta for Terrorism' means literally nothing to me. What is Atlanta famous for, except Coca-Cola?

Andalublue said:

Yeah, I'd get a handle on that if I were you. 'Atlanta for Terrorism' means literally nothing to me. What is Atlanta famous for, except Coca-Cola?

Click to expand...

Lol really? The biggest joke about Atlanta is: "what is there except coke and a delta hub?

stonewall50 said:

Lol really? The biggest joke about Atlanta is: "what is there except coke and a delta hub?

Click to expand...

I see. Do you really think anyone but Americans would know what the biggest hub airport in the SE USA would be? :roll: I didn't even know Delta airlines was still flying. How about TWA? Braniff?

Regarding Greece's request for ESM support:

Luxembourg Finance Minister Pierre Gramegna told parliament on Wednesday that the Eurogroup of euro zone finance ministers would ask the European Commission and European Central Bank to review Greece's request for a bailout...

Gramegna described the loan request lodged by Greece with the ESM earlier on Wednesday as "extremely vague" in its proposals of tax and pension reforms.

UPDATE 1-Eurogroup to request analysis of Greek loan request -Luxembourg | Reuters

The current Syriza-led government certainly doesn't make things easy with its frittering away time while Greece's banks remain largely shuttered and its people suffer.