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Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

It seems that from the Greek point of view, all the issues/problems they are facing is "someone else's fault". And they want a painless solution. (which just ain't going to happen.)

Just a perception.
Its not unlike someone that has dug themselves into a huge financial hole going to a bank and demanding they bail them out but on the individuals terms...and not the banks.
 
Its not unlike someone that has dug themselves into a huge financial hole going to a bank and demanding they bail them out but on the individuals terms...and not the banks.


And maybe they'll pull it off. Dunno....
 
Greece owes half as much again as it did before five years of austerity, with twentyfive percent unemployment, massive public service cuts, and people literally starving, yet the creditors are demanding more of the same, but deeper, until 2030 at least, with no prospect of any improvement. The Greek people just said "**** you, and the horse you came in on." Greek and European politicians of whatever party now have a baseline. The deal Greece almost agreed to last week is not going to pass. As the IMF now says, there must be some debt forgiveness in the package for it to work, which is what the Greeks have been saying from the start. The punitive nature of the stance of the ECB in particular is exposed.
 
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Varoufakis has resigned. They're an unpredictable bunch. :/
Preemptive move by him to avoid getting fired.

What is drowned by all the current and recent brouhaha is that Syriza is pretty rifted. It's not a particularly homogeneous bunch, merely a kind of roof organization under which all sorts of little camps have gathered.

Many on the side of the lenders have expressed their distaste of him as a person, caused by his slanderous invective on practically all lenders. That may have influenced the Greek decision to get rid of him as a hindrance to getting the lenders back to the table, Varoufakis having served his purpose as an uncompromising brick wall to get the Greek position across (they think) but now not being what is needed.

Frankly, IF he is/was such a problem to the lenders' side, then there's a lot of amateurism involved. When you do business you do business with anybody. You know that the high spirits and the rhetorics of campaigning have nothing to do with the everyday common reality that is to follow.

More likely he's been recognized as being so uncompromising that sending him to a summit where compromise is the only solution would be a hindrance more than anything.

That's all assuming there will be any compromise at all, something I seriously doubt.
 
It seems that from the Greek point of view, all the issues/problems they are facing is "someone else's fault". And they want a painless solution. (which just ain't going to happen.)

Just a perception.

I think it's a wrong one. I've been watching masses of coverage and every time a Greek person, from politicians to professors to people in the street, they've said, "We got ourselves into this mess," more or less. The point is, the Troika have been digging them deeper into it with their failed solutions, not helping them dig themselves out.
 
Preemptive move by him to avoid getting fired.

What is drowned by all the current and recent brouhaha is that Syriza is pretty rifted. It's not a particularly homogeneous bunch, merely a kind of roof organization under which all sorts of little camps have gathered.

Many on the side of the lenders have expressed their distaste of him as a person, caused by his slanderous invective on practically all lenders. That may have influenced the Greek decision to get rid of him as a hindrance to getting the lenders back to the table, Varoufakis having served his purpose as an uncompromising brick wall to get the Greek position across (they think) but now not being what is needed.

Frankly, IF he is/was such a problem to the lenders' side, then there's a lot of amateurism involved. When you do business you do business with anybody. You know that the high spirits and the rhetorics of campaigning have nothing to do with the everyday common reality that is to follow.

More likely he's been recognized as being so uncompromising that sending him to a summit where compromise is the only solution would be a hindrance more than anything.

That's all assuming there will be any compromise at all, something I seriously doubt.

Not so sure. Dude comes out unscathed from the the outcome of a largely symbolic referendum.

He can now do speaking tours and write op eds for the guardian/nyt without being discredited about the practical meaning of the referendums outcome. I'd rather be him than anyone else in government.
 
Lol that's so true. I realized that last night.

on second thought it's kind of a way for him to say his hands are tied.

I suppose it's not great to devalue referendums like this.
 
Lol that's so true. I realized that last night.

on second thought it's kind of a way for him to say his hands are tied.

I suppose it's not great to devalue referendums like this.

I think referendums are great. If there's a tangible outcome (lower the voting age, leave/join a currency :) ).

Symbolic ones leave me less than impressed.
 
Not so sure. Dude comes out unscathed from the the outcome of a largely symbolic referendum.

He can now do speaking tours and write op eds for the guardian/nyt without being discredited about the practical meaning of the referendums outcome. I'd rather be him than anyone else in government.
Good luck to him where I'm concerned.

This isn't about how to bolster either ego or personal gain or both though.
 
Latest developments following the Greek referendum:

1. A rather muted financial market reaction. S&P 500: -0.39%; FTSE: -0.76%; DAX: -1.52%; CAC: -2.01%.
2. The Greek Prime Minister requested an increase in the ELA, but the ECB maintained the current level.
3. France and Germany urged Greece to submit "serious" proposals for discussion. Greece reportedly will submit a new proposal tomorrow.

At present, there's no indication that the EU/ECB/IMF will offer debt relief immediately. Given information on the German Chancellor's website and comments from German officials, it appears that somewhat but not substantially modified terms might be acceptable. If so, there may be a meaningful gap between what Greece proposes tomorrow and what the EU/ECB/IMF will accept. Whether the gap will be sufficiently narrow to restart talks and lead to the ECB's increasing the ELA tomorrow or Wednesday remains to be seen.
 
The referendum put to test a detailed proposal that wasn't even on the table any longer. It was a political coup. Now, re-negotiation would be legit if the initial proposal is modified slightly in favor of Greece, because if the PM goes for it, he wouldn't be technically disavowing his voters because it would be a different proposal than the one voted down.

So, a save-facing strategy for all involved may still be in the works.
 
The referendum put to test a detailed proposal that wasn't even on the table any longer. It was a political coup. Now, re-negotiation would be legit if the initial proposal is modified slightly in favor of Greece, because if the PM goes for it, he wouldn't be technically disavowing his voters because it would be a different proposal than the one voted down.

So, a save-facing strategy for all involved may still be in the works.

The referendum was Tsipras's cowardly attempt of pushing off his responsibility as a leader on the people of Greece.

Remember, they've already voted.

That way if they voted No and worse came to worse ( and it will ) he can claim say " dont blame me, you people voted for this "

Socialist coward.
 
The referendum was Tsipras's cowardly attempt of pushing off his responsibility as a leader on the people of Greece.

Remember, they've already voted.

First time, he won 36%. This time he won 62%.

Good move, or what?
 
First time, he won 36%. This time he won 62%.

Good move, or what?

Him " winning " isn't good for anyone actually.

He's a Socialist coward, a activist who played on the naivete of people who have been dependant so long they think they're owed something just for existing.
 
If you have a debt and deficit problem one of the remedies is to devalue your currency so that you get more competitive in exports and you end up turning a surplus. If you are in a currency union you can't do that. The Euro project was built on the notion that it was irrevocable. Now if Greece exits, when other countries are in trouble and austerity measures are recommended, they will know that there is another option. That's what can start a domino effect.

The problem with Grexit is political more than economic. Greece is a tiny fraction of the European GDP and its debt won't plunge the whole of Europe in a huge depression like you said. The problem is that this plays into Putin's hand and undermines European unity.

well there is a difference between devaluing your currency and letting it drop off the face of the earth.defaulting on their debt and issuing their own currency would lead to hyper inflation,simply due to the fact of their previous debts went unpaid.it would not be forever but they would suffer a massive depression in the near term until their new fiat currency gains recognition and previous fiscal situations become forgotten.


fyi i can not name a country that has greatly benefitted from devaluing its currency,its like trading in a manager job at 80k for 8 jobs at 10k and saying the economy flourished.exports increase but wealth does not,infact it decreases buying power in favor of jobs,and nearly every single country that is third world has a low value currency.


devaluation is basically making a country poor for the sake of creating jobs,china,india,south america etc have not flourished from low value currency.
 
It seems that from the Greek point of view, all the issues/problems they are facing is "someone else's fault". And they want a painless solution. (which just ain't going to happen.)

Just a perception.


This problem is someone else's fault. There was no Eurozone debt crises until banks and financial institutions crashed the global economy and created one. Of the countries currently facing crises, only greece even had moderately high debt before the economic collapse (t was 107% of GDP). That is high, but not very dissimilar from many other countries whose economies are doing fine and have done fine in the past. In Spain, debt was 26% of GDP, which is very low, and the Spanish actually ran surpluses in the lead up to the collapse. Their crises is 100% created by outside institutions creating an economic collapse. Greece on the other hand had a larger role to play in their own downfall, but even so most of the blame lies at the feet of the financial institutions responsible for the collapse of the economy and the wealthy Eurozone countries that have imposed insane austerity measures on Greece. If those austerity measures hadn't been imposed, there is no way the Greek economy would have contracted by 25%. How can creditors expect a country to pay its debts, while imposing on that country measures, which lead to a 25% decrease in economic output. It is an impossible position Greece is in. It is bad economics. The only reason it is being done, is to protect the powerful (the creditors) and because there is a moral crusade under way to punish the Greeks for their failures, despite the fact that many of their problems are not of their own making.
 
The referendum was Tsipras's cowardly attempt of pushing off his responsibility as a leader on the people of Greece.

Remember, they've already voted.

That way if they voted No and worse came to worse ( and it will ) he can claim say " dont blame me, you people voted for this "

Socialist coward.


Of course considering the Democratic will of the Greek people would be cowardice in the mind of right wing sycophants for the powerful.
 
I think it's a wrong one. I've been watching masses of coverage and every time a Greek person, from politicians to professors to people in the street, they've said, "We got ourselves into this mess," more or less. The point is, the Troika have been digging them deeper into it with their failed solutions, not helping them dig themselves out.

Hope you are correct. That would be a refreshing attitude to hear from them....
 
With Greece's banks shuttered, one would think that the current Greek government would have a sense of urgency in seeking new assistance. Not exactly. Today came and went without the Greek government's submitting a new proposal. From CNBC:

Greece didn't submit new written proposals on Tuesday, but instead made an oral presentation—with a written version supposedly on its way soon.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ndum-early-results-show-no-vote-ahead-15.html

Reportedly, Greece will soon be submitting a formal written proposal (Greece to Make Official Request Keeping Chances of Aid Alive - Bloomberg Business).

This almost astonishing lack of urgency by the Greek government will probably result in the ECB's maintaining its ELA financing to Greece's banks at current levels tomorrow, rather than lifting it so that the banks can re-open, unless Greece submits its proposal ahead of the ECB's decision and there is sufficient promise to expect it to lead to a rapid agreement with the EU/ECB/IMF. In the meantime, Greek economic activity is diminishing as a result of the absence of a functioning financial system.
 
Hope you are correct. That would be a refreshing attitude to hear from them....

Have you not been watching the coverage? BBC's Panorama last night interviewed quite a wide range of people both Nai and Oxi voters. They pretty much all said the same thing about how Greece got into the mess.
 
With Greece's banks shuttered, one would think that the current Greek government would have a sense of urgency in seeking new assistance. Not exactly. Today came and went without the Greek government's submitting a new proposal. From CNBC:

Greece didn't submit new written proposals on Tuesday, but instead made an oral presentation—with a written version supposedly on its way soon.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ndum-early-results-show-no-vote-ahead-15.html

Reportedly, Greece will soon be submitting a formal written proposal (Greece to Make Official Request Keeping Chances of Aid Alive - Bloomberg Business).

This almost astonishing lack of urgency by the Greek government will probably result in the ECB's maintaining its ELA financing to Greece's banks at current levels tomorrow, rather than lifting it so that the banks can re-open, unless Greece submits its proposal ahead of the ECB's decision and there is sufficient promise to expect it to lead to a rapid agreement with the EU/ECB/IMF. In the meantime, Greek economic activity is diminishing as a result of the absence of a functioning financial system.

Astonishing lack of urgency? They've had one day since the referendum. They've had 10 days since calling it and just 5 months since taking power. The Troika has been dealing with the sovereign debt crisis for 7 years and haven't come up with a practical solution.
 
Astonishing lack of urgency? They've had one day since the referendum. They've had 10 days since calling it and just 5 months since taking power. The Troika has been dealing with the sovereign debt crisis for 7 years and haven't come up with a practical solution.

Following the referendum, the Greek government stated that it would "immediately" negotiate a deal, would have a deal in 24 hours, etc. Instead, it came to Brussels without a proposal. The new Finance Minister isn't to blame, but the government in general is. The Greek government knows full well that the ECB will not increase the ELA limit unless there is a credible proposal on the table (something that was made clear when Greece asked it to increase its support on Monday).

Did the government have an idea what its strategy would be if it prevailed in the referendum? That lack of a ready proposal suggests that it didn't, even as the creditors had stated ahead of the referendum and again afterward, that they expected Greece to offer a new proposal.
 
This problem is someone else's fault. There was no Eurozone debt crises until banks and financial institutions crashed the global economy and created one. Of the countries currently facing crises, only greece even had moderately high debt before the economic collapse (t was 107% of GDP). That is high, but not very dissimilar from many other countries whose economies are doing fine and have done fine in the past. In Spain, debt was 26% of GDP, which is very low, and the Spanish actually ran surpluses in the lead up to the collapse. Their crises is 100% created by outside institutions creating an economic collapse. Greece on the other hand had a larger role to play in their own downfall, but even so most of the blame lies at the feet of the financial institutions responsible for the collapse of the economy and the wealthy Eurozone countries that have imposed insane austerity measures on Greece. If those austerity measures hadn't been imposed, there is no way the Greek economy would have contracted by 25%. How can creditors expect a country to pay its debts, while imposing on that country measures, which lead to a 25% decrease in economic output. It is an impossible position Greece is in. It is bad economics. The only reason it is being done, is to protect the powerful (the creditors) and because there is a moral crusade under way to punish the Greeks for their failures, despite the fact that many of their problems are not of their own making.

No, the Greek problem existed long before the debt crisis. Also, the rest of the EU seemed to be able to weather the debt crisis OK.
 
No, the Greek problem existed long before the debt crisis. Also, the rest of the EU seemed to be able to weather the debt crisis OK.

Since 1829, the country has spent half its existence in default.

But it's not an internal problem. :/
 
Of course considering the Democratic will of the Greek people would be cowardice in the mind of right wing sycophants for the powerful.

What about the left wing sychophants that blame all of this on the Banks and the Creditors ?

Those Che Guevara flag waving morons who blame " austerity " when no one in their right minds would lend Greece a dime ?

They're the one's who've turned this into a cluster.

The Greek banks are giving out a maximum of 60 Euros a day and are forbidding any wire transfers out of Greece.

You know where they're getting the money to do that ? They're taking it from people's safe deposit boxes.
 
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