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Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

Damn, Greek citizens, you guys have some ****ing balls of STEEL!!
 
I know what a mantra is, being a Buddhist and all, but I don't see what mantra it is you're referring to, since I've repeated nothing.
It's more like the attitude.

Bad Germany, bad Troika, bad greedy banks, everyone having lived it up at the expense of somebody they brought to his (their/her) knees first so that they could.

There is NObody without blemish in this whole sordid affair, some crooked, some stupid, some both.

Falling for this foul Syriza propaganda because of one's own political fealty is only marginally better than being prone to the equally "ideologized" wingnut ranting of the likes of you-know-who.

Facts (truth if you like) have long since become primary casualties.

In this one everybody is lying. Everybody to their friends, their voters, their party colleagues that are in support and their party colleagues that are in opposition. To their partners in support and to their partners in secret pursuit of own agenda.

And, sticking to the conflict scenario, to their enemy of course and about him.

This is going to end badly. For everybody but most of all for Greece.

That's the extent of MY partisanship.
 
don't forget the brains of mush, at least with over 60 pct.

LOL, the Greeks had only three options:

1. Let the severe austerity destroy what's left of their fragile economy.
2. Suffer a head-on collision in a game of chicken with the IMF.
3. Show the world that they're a hostage that is no longer afraid to commit suicide, thus forcing far gentler terms at the bargaining table.

Today, the Greeks soundly rejected option #1, banked on the hopes of #3, and left the door open to #2. If Greece defaults, it's gonna send shock waves throughout the world. Even as we speak, the Asian markets are in an uproar, and no doubt those shock waves will spread to European and then American markets when they open tomorrow.

Be afraid, rich elite! The people are starting to rise up!
 
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Why is it up to the rest of Europe to support a Greek welfare state? Bernie mentions massive income inequality in the world. Aren't there people poorer than Greeks? Why not help them instead? :confused: I wonder if Bernie's going to put his money where his mouth is and send the Greeks a check.
 
LOL, the Greeks had only three options:

1. Let the severe austerity destroy what's left of their fragile economy.
2. Suffer a head-on collision in a game of chicken with the IMF.
3. Show the world that they're a hostage that is no longer afraid to commit suicide, thus forcing far gentler terms at the bargaining table.

Today, the Greeks soundly rejected option #1, banked on the hopes of #3, and left the door open to #2. If Greece defaults, it's gonna send shock waves throughout the world. Even as we speak, the Asian markets are in an uproar, and no doubt those shock waves will spread to European and then American markets when they open tomorrow.

Be afraid, rich elite! The people are starting to rise up!
yeah well, marxist paroles are going to get you and the Greeks about as far as the rest of your post. That last sentence is about as silly as it can get in this issue of abundant silliness.

But thanks for your insightful analysis of what's been achieved or going to be.

It'll be interesting to see the rich elitist citizens of, Romania, Lithuania, Slovakia and so on tell their national parliaments to go shove it, when those ask for a mandate to keep giving to a country richer than theirs.

That just shows the scope of your ignorance.
 
Why is it up to the rest of Europe to support a Greek welfare state? Bernie mentions massive income inequality in the world. Aren't there people poorer than Greeks? Why not help them instead? :confused: I wonder if Bernie's going to put his money where his mouth is and send the Greeks a check.


Good point on people far poorer.
 
You would also be ignoring the fact that even the IMF admits that the austerity "punishment" doled out to the Greeks for the last five years was wrong.
yeah, that requires address in whatever negotiations still to come.

You have a credibility problem when demanding restructuring and not even being capable of properly structuring your own aid.

It shouldn't detract from Greece having revoked virtually all attempts as of January to follow that demand. But that shouldn't detract from the basic loan faults either.
 
You clearly haven't been paying attention. You only have to spend about 20 minutes with a Greek guy in a bar for the topic of how much the Germans still owe them to raise its head. When was the last time you went out drinking in Greece? And you really never heard it mentioned? Really?
Last time I went out drinking in Greece and this topic came up was about 25 years ago (I've been countless times since but not with this item being addressed). I didn't argue anything either way, not having any card in that game, but there was a lively discussions among Greeks, with about half arguing to stop dragging up the past and the other arguing that they're still owed.

German investments in the country also came up but not with those that still felt owed.

Of course nobody invests anywhere out of sheer humanitarian considerations, making a win is the prime consideration. But as I said elsewhere, 70 years or a couple of hundred, there shouldn't be any difference when one demands what others have taken in the course of history. By that logic.

The so offended incidentally also held dreams of getting Anatolia back.
 
i dont think greece falling out of the eurozone would encourage other countries. as it currently stands,greece dropping out of the eurozone would be far more damaging to their economy than even the most extreme forms of austerity.

the eurozone would suffer credibility if greece left,and would also suffer credibility if they dropped greeces debt.it is a lose lose situation for both sides,but for greece dropping out of the eurozone would lead to an epic depression,one which will take years maybe even a decade to recover from.

If you have a debt and deficit problem one of the remedies is to devalue your currency so that you get more competitive in exports and you end up turning a surplus. If you are in a currency union you can't do that. The Euro project was built on the notion that it was irrevocable. Now if Greece exits, when other countries are in trouble and austerity measures are recommended, they will know that there is another option. That's what can start a domino effect.

The problem with Grexit is political more than economic. Greece is a tiny fraction of the European GDP and its debt won't plunge the whole of Europe in a huge depression like you said. The problem is that this plays into Putin's hand and undermines European unity.
 
If you have a debt and deficit problem one of the remedies is to devalue your currency so that you get more competitive in exports and you end up turning a surplus. If you are in a currency union you can't do that. The Euro project was built on the notion that it was irrevocable. Now if Greece exits, when other countries are in trouble and austerity measures are recommended, they will know that there is another option. That's what can start a domino effect.

The problem with Grexit is political more than economic. Greece is a tiny fraction of the European GDP and its debt won't plunge the whole of Europe in a huge depression like you said. The problem is that this plays into Putin's hand and undermines European unity.

That is the real problem. The Euro has always been political and far to little regard was paid to the economic realities of what they were doing. The Euro is far too strong because of the exporting nations for Greece to be able to compete. One article I read said that Greeks would need to take a 30% pay cut which will never happen.
 
Varoufakis has resigned. They're an unpredictable bunch. :/
 
When a plane is falling from the sky, it makes sense for the passengers to vote against gravity.
 
Given that the financial consequences for Germany, France, the ECB, IMF and even Britain might be quite dire in the event of a Grexit, they'll be well advised to restructure the debt - it'll work out infinitely cheaper in the long-run.
Over the long run, Greece is going to continue to be a boat anchor tied to the necks of the rest of the EU. If they restructure debt and bail them out...again...they will be back doing this every few years. It's tough telling your broke drug addicted crack whore sister you aren't going to keep paying her fines, rent, food, and bailing her out of jail, but at some point cutting them loose is the only long term solution.
 
It have already ended badly for Greece and it is why the voted in Syriza and the no vote. That Greece have for years have to comply to the demands of the Troika. With the result of the debt increasing from 100 % to 170 %. That at the same time the official unemployment have increased to 25 %. That not including the people who have gave up looking for a job or all the people who have moved to other countries in search of a job. That at the same vital service like healthcare have deteriorated rapidly. Now the Greeks are was willing to try anything except being forced to follow Troikas destructive policies.

Tough austerity measures in Greece leave nearly a million people with no access to healthcare, leading to soaring infant mortality, HIV infection and suicide - Europe - World - The Independent
 
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I feel invigorated by the results of the referendum - it gives me hope that the Greek people want to take matters into their own hands once again and work their way from there. As for all the foreign creditors - you will swallow your loss and think better next time. This is what the bloody interest premium on loans is about - you are making a profit in exchange for the risk of not being paid back. If you are always paid back though, then there is no risk and your profit is undeserved.



As long as the country doesn't run out of food and fuel (the former can be internally produced as far as I know Greece's economy) everything else will be worked out.
 
Mornin AHS. :2wave: Well.....not for everyone. Just sayin! :2razz:



It will be interesting to see how this is handled going forward, and see who gets what.
 
It will be interesting to see how this is handled going forward, and see who gets what.

Indeed it will Lady P.
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Russia Taking Full Advantage Of Greek Crisis

In the meantime, the turmoil offers an opportunity for Russia to advance its interests. Of course, the EU is an absolutely critical trading partner for Russia, so if the bloc starts to fray at the seams, that presents financial risks to an already struggling Russian economy. Russia’s central bank governor Elvira Nabiulllina warned in June of the brewing threat that a Greek default would have on Russia. “We do consider that scenario as one of possible risks which would increase turbulence in the financial markets in the European market, bearing in mind the fact the European Union is one of major trading partners, and we are definitely worried by it,” she said in an interview with CNBC.

With the economic fallout in mind, Russia does see strategic opportunities in growing discord within Europe. First, Russia is pushing its Turkish Stream Pipeline, a natural gas pipeline that it has proposed that would run from Russia through Turkey and link up in Greece. From there, Russian gas would travel on to the rest of Europe. Russia is vying against a separate pipeline project that would send natural gas from the Caspian Sea through Turkey and on to Europe.

The pipeline remains in limbo. Despite Russian insistence that construction could begin in 2016 and be completed by 2019, the 2 billion euro project does not have firm commitments from Turkey, and it also still faces opposition within Europe, which is trying to wean itself off of Russian gas.....snip~

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-taking-full-advantage-greek-182101708.html
 
Over the long run, Greece is going to continue to be a boat anchor tied to the necks of the rest of the EU. If they restructure debt and bail them out...again...they will be back doing this every few years. It's tough telling your broke drug addicted crack whore sister you aren't going to keep paying her fines, rent, food, and bailing her out of jail, but at some point cutting them loose is the only long term solution.

It's that very boat anchor that keeps Germany's exports outside Europe relatively cheap. Your Mercedes would have been more expensive in Deutchmarks, and they wouldn't sell so many abroad.
 


"In the evaluation of the package provided in 2010, the IMF said: "Given the danger of contagion, the report judges the programme to have been a necessity, even though the Fund had misgivings about debt sustainability.


"There was, however, a tension between the need to support Greece and the concern that debt was not sustainable with high probability (a condition for exceptional access).

"In response, the exceptional access criterion was amended to lower the bar for debt sustainability in systemic cases. The baseline still showed debt to be sustainable, as is required for all Fund programmes."

In the event, the report added, the Fund was open to criticism for making economic projections that were too optimistic."



Worth noting that the "mistake" was just in the projections of how much hardship it may cause. The report seems to still confirm that the action was needed under the conditions Greece faced.






//
 
Varoufakis has resigned. They're an unpredictable bunch. :/

Not really.

" First, though he came from the centre-left towards Syriza, Varoufakis ended up consistently taking a harder line than many others in the Greek cabinet over the shape of the deal to be done, and the kind of resistance they might have to unleash if the Germans refused a deal.

Second, because Varoufakis is an economist, not a politician. His entire career, and his academic qualifications are built on the conviction that a) austerity does not work; b) the Eurozone will collapse unless it becomes a union for recycling tax from rich countries to poor countries; c) Greece is insolvent and its debts need to be cancelled.

By those measures, any deal Greece can do this week will falls short of what he thinks will work.


On top of that, politicians are built for compromise. Tsipras has to work the party machine, the government machine, the machine of parliament. Varoufakis’ machine is his own brain.

If he wound up the creditors it was for a reason: they’d convinced themselves that Tsipras was a Greek Tony Blair and would simply betray his promises and compromise on taking office.

The lenders detested Varoufakis because he looked and sounded like one of them. He spoke the language of the IMF and ECB, and turned their own logic against them. But he achieved his objective: he convinced the lenders Greece was serious. ..."

- See more at: Yanis Varoufakis: the economist who wouldn’t play politics | Paul Mason | Paul Mason
 
It's that very boat anchor that keeps Germany's exports outside Europe relatively cheap. Your Mercedes would have been more expensive in Deutchmarks, and they wouldn't sell so many abroad.
Hows the Euro doing? How are the Greek banks doing? How are stocks doing? Hell...how are GREEKS doing?

Greece is a nightmare. It isnt getting better its getting worse. They dont want to take steps to get better. If the EU wants to do this again every few years...be my guest.
 
Hows the Euro doing? How are the Greek banks doing? How are stocks doing? Hell...how are GREEKS doing?

Greece is a nightmare. It isnt getting better its getting worse. They dont want to take steps to get better. If the EU wants to do this again every few years...be my guest.


It seems that from the Greek point of view, all the issues/problems they are facing is "someone else's fault". And they want a painless solution. (which just ain't going to happen.)

Just a perception.
 

"In the evaluation of the package provided in 2010, the IMF said: "Given the danger of contagion, the report judges the programme to have been a necessity, even though the Fund had misgivings about debt sustainability.


"There was, however, a tension between the need to support Greece and the concern that debt was not sustainable with high probability (a condition for exceptional access).

"In response, the exceptional access criterion was amended to lower the bar for debt sustainability in systemic cases. The baseline still showed debt to be sustainable, as is required for all Fund programmes."

In the event, the report added, the Fund was open to criticism for making economic projections that were too optimistic."



Worth noting that the "mistake" was just in the projections of how much hardship it may cause. The report seems to still confirm that the action was needed under the conditions Greece faced.


//


Except the result of their miscalculation was to screw Greece even further into debt, with most of the loans and extensions going to service the interest, boosting the ECB and IMF takings. Greece started out owing 120% of GDP, now five years of austerity sees them owing 180% They won't swallow any more of that "mistaken" cure.
 
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