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Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

Tsipras spoke out against the media, which has historically been granted tax breaks by past PASOK and ND governments and is thus pro-austerity, for giving more coverage to the yes side of the referendum. I wonder what the result would've looked like with more unbiased media coverage.

It seems like EU members are sending very mixed messages on what the results of the referendum means. Regardless, SYRIZA has repeatedly spoken against leaving the Euro, and as Andalablue stated, a Grexit would clearly have negative consequences for everyone involved. Hopefully, this will result in negotiations resuming with the EU more open-minded to ending austerity.
 
The referendum showed that they rejected the previous deal. The election of Syriza showed they rejected austerity (which should have been the end of it). What do you think happens if the trokia meets the conditions of that letter halfway? Do you expect another referendum?

I'm sure the Greeks would be very happy to see some movement from the Troika side. Whether they'd think it sufficient, who knows? If the Troika did make some movement, it would demonstrate that their refusal to negotiate with the Syriza government from the start was a political decision, not an economic one. Would another referendum be likely? I doubt it. Tsipras has a double mandate , one for his government, the other for his negotiating strategy. He couldn't be in a stronger position to take the big decisions now.
 
Correct, nothing has changed. Maybe they proceed with the letter of near capitulation sent by Tsipras early last week. I doubt we'll see a referendum on that.[/QUOTE

Greetings, Ben K. :2wave:

Perhaps I'm reading this "no" vote incorrectly, but it doesn't look as if Greece capitulated at all. They just don't have the money to pay their bill without borrowing more from the same people they owe. Weird! If talks do begin anew, we'll soon know what the final terms are.

Hi.

Presumably, this would serve the basis of progressing from the referendum (if the troika chooses to do deal further with the Greeks).

http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2015/07/01/leaked-tsipras-letter-concedes-on-many-major-points/

In it, Tsipras conceded nearly everything that they had a vote on.
 
The Greek people don't want to leave the Euro, but they won't take any more of Europe's lethal medicine either.

They gotta play the guitar on the MTV now



:mrgreen:

yeah, this one is politically correct now as well. Apparently you can write "fagot" but you can't say it. :roll:

Lord give me strength
 
In it, Tsipras conceded nearly everything that they had a vote on.

And yet the Troika rejected it, or rather said that it would only consider it if the referendum was called off. Well, like the offer on which the referendum was based, I'd say that today's result means that the letter is no longer on the table.
 
Greece is like the spoiled child of privilege. Always having mommy and daddy pay the way for their indulgent lifestyle. Time to kick the ingrates out of the house and let them sink or swim on their own. Canada only supports the IMF to a small amount but I'd be opposed to even one more penny going to prop up these idiots. As noted this morning, Greece has an economy about the size of South Carolina - if they fail, big deal - a few days of yoyoing on the stock market and then forgotten. Maybe then, with their tail between their legs, they'll come to their senses and pay the piper for their decades of indulgence.

And let's not forget, there's Portugal, and Italy, perhaps Spain, all lining up behind Greece waiting to see the outcome and what it will cost them going forward. If you cave into the first ransom holder, you lose the rest too. Cut them off now and cast them adrift.
This is comically hilarious. I wonder if people will utter "Greece's economy is too big to fail". The is economic terrorism just like what we had here in this country. Our politicians caved and gave in to their campaign donors. I wonder if Greece has the same clout?
 
For now it becomes a game of political clout. Greece is not going to voluntarily leave the EU/Euro so it would take a political effort by several other members to force the issue and we not not too confident there is enough political pressure to force Greece out.

Assuming the referendum does fail, we are back to negotiations. Technically speaking Greece is already in default on an IMF payment, for however long that continues and/or how many more payments are missed is anyone's guess but the further we go the more pressure there is to find some solution or have it all break down.

Greece wants to continue with fiscal irresponsibility and have other member nations forgive them for it. Several others, mostly lead by Germany, are against it. They want Greece to submit to fiscal / economic policy reforms and changes to pension plans in exchange for some deal.

From my chair a "no" vote does not change the basic roadblock, it is not all of a sudden going to mean Greece can continue with fiscal irresponsibility and have no repercussions for it.

Just as soon as germany pays for the damage it wrought in greece in ww2, i will listen to its lectures on fiscal responsibility
 
They're not going to withdraw, not from the Eurozone - although they can be ejected - nor from the EU, from which they cannot be ejected.
Rubbish, there's no provision for kicking any €-country out of the currency once it's in.

Only way out is leaving of own accord which would also necessitate leaving the EU altogether.

It's the reverse principle of having to be a member in order to apply for entry into the currency.
 
And yet the Troika rejected it, or rather said that it would only consider it if the referendum was called off. Well, like the offer on which the referendum was based, I'd say that today's result means that the letter is no longer on the table.

They actually said they would not consider anything until the referendum was over, not called off. And here we now are.
 
Rubbish, there's no provision for kicking any €-country out of the currency once it's in.

Only way out is leaving of own accord which would also necessitate leaving the EU altogether.
That's not true. There are 9 EU members that are not members of the Eurozone. There is no requirement for all EU members to be members of the Eurozone, even if they do fulfil the criteria. Greece can't be formally expelled, but a withdrawal of emergency liquidity support will make that a de facto expulsion.
 
They actually said they would not consider anything until the referendum was over, not called off. And here we now are.

Actually, you're right. I was reading about it but those calling for the scrapping of the referendum were unnamed 'sources close to the Troika negotiating team', so that wasn't the position.

Yes, that is that. Let's see what the Troika do next. Apparently Tsipras has been on the phone to relevant people for the past 3 hours.
 
The Greek people don't want to leave the Euro, but they won't take any more of Europe's lethal medicine either.

I'd like to be wealthy without doing anything about it. Things don't work that way. The Greeks can't keep spending the Germans' money forever. They will be in for some hard times very quickly. We must all deal with the consequences of what we do. Greece lied in order to join the EU and has engaged in incompetent fiscal policy. It's time to pay the piper.
 
This is comically hilarious. I wonder if people will utter "Greece's economy is too big to fail". The is economic terrorism just like what we had here in this country. Our politicians caved and gave in to their campaign donors. I wonder if Greece has the same clout?

I sure hope not, but we'll see. I'm betting that Angela Merkel isn't going to cave to Greek intransigence, but the IMF might. If the Greeks couldn't find the $1.7 billion payment they owed earlier this week, and have no intention of doing what is necessary to reach solvency, why would anyone be idiotic enough to forward another $50 some billion to them so they can remain solvent for another 4 years living off taxpayers in other countries.
 
I'd like to be wealthy without doing anything about it. Things don't work that way. The Greeks can't keep spending the Germans' money forever. They will be in for some hard times very quickly. We must all deal with the consequences of what we do. Greece lied in order to join the EU and has engaged in incompetent fiscal policy. It's time to pay the piper.

Where do you get the idea they're wealthy? They're being asked to go from a 700 Euros a month pension to three hundred. The debt incurred by the oligarchs has been socialised onto the poor.

The Germans were lending them "money" in the form of German goods which let the Germans live high on the hog.
 
Let's see what the Troika do next. Apparently Tsipras has been on the phone to relevant people for the past 3 hours.

The ECB has the first move so to speak. We'll learn soon whether or not it has increased its ELA financing to Greece's banks. I don't think it will withdraw its support unless Greece misses its payment to the central bank later this month. It could maintain the current level of support, meaning the Greek banking holiday and capital controls persist. Greece may then issue some kind of scrip currency or IOUs.
 
Where do you get the idea they're wealthy? They're being asked to go from a 700 Euros a month pension to three hundred. The debt incurred by the oligarchs has been socialised onto the poor.

The Germans were lending them "money" in the form of German goods which let the Germans live high on the hog.

I didn't say anybody was wealthy. The person to whom I responded said that the Greeks want neither to abandon the Euro nor to reduce government spending. That isn't an option just like being wealthy without doing anything about it. If Germans live high on the hog then I salute them. Greece is in serious trouble. Let it be a lesson to us.
 
Seems to me their options are follow the limits and guidelines proposed by the people that are bailing you out. AGAIN...

or...

refuse and keep doing the same things that have caused your country to become economically insolvent.

Well...gosh...thats a no brainer.

The EU should happily acknowledge their results.
 
Just as soon as germany pays for the damage it wrought in greece in ww2, i will listen to its lectures on fiscal responsibility

Please explain to us how that is even remotely relevant to the conversation we are having.
 
The ECB has the first move so to speak. We'll learn soon whether or not it has increased its ELA financing to Greece's banks. I don't think it will withdraw its support unless Greece misses its payment to the central bank later this month. It could maintain the current level of support, meaning the Greek banking holiday and capital controls persist. Greece may then issue some kind of scrip currency or IOUs.

Well, I think it's much more likely that the first move will be to reschedule discussions and for the Troika to signal that it is prepared to countenance some form of restructuring. I suppose that a refusal of the ECB to increase its ELA would give the opposite message loudly enough, but I have a feeling the Troika side might be feeling a little more flexible tomorrow.
 
The situation/disaster in Greece concludes a failed classical experiment in Socialism.

The concept sounded swell. Kumbaya. But it doesn't translate well to reality.


The vote today of "no" just simplifies things for the EU. Greece can work things out on it's own....
 
Please explain to us how that is even remotely relevant to the conversation we are having.

greek politicians announced they would not repay their debt until germany paid for war damages, which seems quite fair to me
 
Seems to me their options are follow the limits and guidelines proposed by the people that are bailing you out. AGAIN...

or...

refuse and keep doing the same things that have caused your country to become economically insolvent.

Well...gosh...thats a no brainer.

The EU should happily acknowledge their results.

Given that the financial consequences for Germany, France, the ECB, IMF and even Britain might be quite dire in the event of a Grexit, they'll be well advised to restructure the debt - it'll work out infinitely cheaper in the long-run.
 
greek politicians announced they would not repay their debt until germany paid for war damages, which seems quite fair to me

If that was a condition when the loan was made, i agree.

If not then they owe the money. You don't get to make **** up on the fly.....
 
That's not true. There are 9 EU members that are not members of the Eurozone. There is no requirement for all EU members to be members of the Eurozone, even if they do fulfil the criteria. Greece can't be formally expelled, but a withdrawal of emergency liquidity support will make that a de facto expulsion.
You are misinformed and this is caused by your own confusion. Membership in the EU, or application of it, does not automatically require entry into the € once that membership is granted.

That doesn't mean you can leave the currency zone, once inside it and at the same time retain EU membership.

Of course, for this as for so many other issues, no provision was ever instituted for this eventuality. So, barring a rewrite of the whole charter (not impossible) the reverse principle of entry (for both) will need to apply.

As I said.
 
If that was a condition when the loan was made, i agree.

If not then they owe the money. You don't get to make **** up on the fly.....

did germany ask permission before invading greece and wrecking it to the tune of 280 billion euros? Greece not repaying the debt is simply a way of forcing germany to pay for damages it would otherwise never pay
 
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