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KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

He got the history straight from them. Its like having a WW2 vet in the family (which I do) and listening to their stories of been there done that.

My dad's living and he's a veteran of the Battle of the Bulge. But hand me down stories from the civil war are not accurate history.
 
My dad's living and he's a veteran of the Battle of the Bulge. But hand me down stories from the civil war are not accurate history.

Your dad fought alongside a close friend of my family who passed away in 2008 at the age of 95. I could listen to him tell WW2 stories for hours.
 
You accept I guess why leaders across the South adopted that flag in the 1940s - 1960s? It was raised as a symbol of defiance against Federal efforts to end Jim Crow. I mean, that's just the history. If you were white standing along the route of some of those black civil rights marches waving the Rebel flag, no one had to guess whether you stood with MLK or George Wallace and his ilk. Wallace didn't pick the Rebel flag as a backdrop by accident, cause he liked the colors. That flag sent a signal to every white person in the South watching him - segregation now, etc. So what don't "Northern Liberals" understand?

BTW, some of us southern boys understand our culture quite well, I've lived in it for 51 years. And what I understand is we have changed here. Those old racist attitudes aren't gone completely, but they're only held by bitter dead enders, losers, morons. It's why I so oppose this region holding onto such a symbol of those shameful days we should be proud to have put behind us.

It is, IMHO attitudes like yours, that perpetuate some sort of white guilt, and a major reason NC has become what it is today....I am in NO WAY advocating racism, but, you are cheering the first step in altering our history, and possibly ensuring that we repeat it. Good Job.
 
It is, IMHO attitudes like yours, that perpetuate some sort of white guilt, and a major reason NC has become what it is today....I am in NO WAY advocating racism, but, you are cheering the first step in altering our history, and possibly ensuring that we repeat it. Good Job.

OK, what part of Southern history have I altered in the slightest? The Rebel flag's history is easily documented. Do a Google image search - you'll see all the documentation you need of how it was used in the civil rights era.

And what makes it likely we'll repeat our history is the inability of we in this region to squarely face our history and repudiate it. I don't feel any "white guilt" for attitudes I was taught by my parents to reject and that I reject as an adult. But I also don't pretend that the South didn't treat blacks like second class citizens, enforced by the police power of the State and that people in power did not raise the banner of the Rebel flag in defiance of Federal efforts to end that shameful era.

One more thing, I get that the flag means "Southern Pride" etc. to an awful lot of people. But we also KNOW what it means to most blacks, and it's how it was used by white guys protesting civil rights. So to me if the South stands for anything it's not, "Yeah, this offends you? F**k you!" So there isn't any occasion that I'd wear that symbol. To me it's no more than common courtesy, respect for others, especially for others who were directly or whose ancestors were oppressed by folks waving that relic of history.

If others want to, fine, I think it's a sign of an idiot, racist, and/or jerk, and a heads up on that is always helpful. But there's no excuse for a state to fly a banner that for GOOD REASONS, confirmed by any 3 second Google image search, is offensive to a large share of their population.
 
As I said, "but not by a landslide!" You moved the goal posts from winning to winning by huge margins.

I didn't move the goal posts. I'm still playing on my goal posts. I stated that it wasn't until 1984 that the South went solidly Republican. Reagan won by single digit margins in the South in 1980, in 1984 Reagan won many Southern states by double digits, solidifying the Southern vote for Republicans.


Again, this is a straightforward sentence: "that didn't even HAVE actual general elections for many offices in many areas including my dad's hometown." Or, more clearly, the Democrat ran UNOPPOSED in most general election races, and 100% of office holders were white and Democrats.

And show me where and when they started allowing Republicans to run. It seems a strange to argue that the South didn't turn Republican on race issues because Republicans couldn't run in local elections.
That only helps the argument that White Racist Southerners remained hard core Democrats.


I guess you don't really get why we needed the Voting Rights Act in the South. Blacks weren't allowed to register, or allowed to vote, and therefore also couldn't run for office or serve on juries. It's a sort of an important feature about the South and race and parties. I couldn't find a verifiable source, but one article put the number at 3% of blacks registered in the South in 1940. In Mississippi in 1960, many sources say only 5% of blacks were registered. And that was because of Jim Crow, not apathy. So those Gallup Polls just omit blacks in that region.

Except that the Southern black voter turnout remained between 40-50% throughout the 20 years after the passage of the VRA. After a 10% jump in 1968 (when segregationist George Wallace won the deep south), the Southern black voter participation dropped back to 1964 rates by 1976. Southern black voter participation didn't start to climb steadily until 1980, 15 years after the passage of the VRA.

And you're making the same mistake everyone else does when they say "Democrats opposed the Civil Rights Act!! They're the REAL RACISTS!!! AHA!!!" No, southern whites did, and they were nearly all democrats. Democrats in the entire rest of the country voted nearly 100% FOR the CRA and VRA. And the Democrats didn't run Southern racists for POTUS. LBJ was a Southerner and supported the CRA.

Championing the CRA doesn't mean he wasn't a racist. It is quite possible for someone to see blacks as inferior and still support their right to vote. Hell, with the general low view Democrat politicians have for the voting public, I'm sure Johnson's belief in the inferiority of the Black citizen was seen by him as a valuable asset for the Democrats.

LBJ was a politician and like all politicians he did things he thought would get him more votes: "I’ll have those ni****s voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” - Lyndon Baines Johnson

I think your point is the Southern Strategy was more than "appeal to racists and they'll come to the GOP to get away from the blacks" and I agree. Race was just one of several reasons for the shift of Southern whites from nearly 100% democratic in 1960 to dominated by the GOP in the current era. But what you can't ignore is the national Democratic party's support for civil rights caused a huge split in the South, which is why the DIxiecrats emerged in the 1940s and the South went for Wallace in 1968. Goldwater ran against forced desegregation, and won the South. You can say all you want his motives were "states rights" but they just "happened" to align with Southern racists views of white supremacy and would have allowed blacks to be treated as second class citizens for a generation more or so. So the politics of race aren't the only cause, but were a big cause and in any event greased the wheels for the realignment of southern whites back to the party of the despised Lincoln and all that his hated Republican party did during reconstruction.

My point is that no matter how racist the third hand remembrance of the Republican "Southern Strategy" was, there is no evidence that such a plan was ever employed or effective in swaying Southern White votes. The only place a Southern Strategy as described was actually implemented was by George Wallace running as the Independence Party candidate in 1968. The Southern White vote flipped to Republican during the Reagan era when the Republican party ran on a conservative platform of small government and tax reform, not states rights and VRA opposition of the "Southern Strategy".
 
No, that's not why it is NOT banned. So you got two things wrong.

It's been condemned (but not banned) because of the easily documented recent history of that flag during our lifetimes, which was as a symbol of protest against civil rights for blacks, raised by people in positions of power across the state.

Fair enough. I see it this...well, what can I call it...a "suspension" of the Confederate flag despite its offensive history as being a sidestep for gun control and mental illness in this country. Nikki Haley can ass-kiss herself all she wants in front of the press, anti-defamation, and civil rights groups but I have yet to hear her really address gun control other than making it easier for concealed permits while hiding her head in the sand regurgitating the Second Amendment. A concealed permit would not have saved the lives of those people that horrible day in church. No doubt she is a NRA bought and paid for Rethuglicon puppet. She frowns upon Medicaid calling it a "broken system." Okay, I can agree with her on that up to a point. Still, Medicaid would be better than no system at all for a lunatic like Dylan to receive some form of mental help which he so desperately needed.
 
the swastika, once a peaceful religious symbol of buddhists and hindus, was later co-opted by the nazis

think it would be appropriate to now fly a flag bearing that same symbol

ditto for the confederate battle flag in the present era. it no longer represents what it once did, like the ancient swastika

Swastika-seoel.jpg

So should they take it down?
 
Carlsberg beer used to use the swastika on its labels, before the nazis co-opted it.

Been gone ever since, and still a damned fine beer.
 
But I also don't pretend that the South didn't treat blacks like second class citizens, enforced by the police power of the State...

You sure you know history? Second class citizens should be a misnomer. Blacks were hung from trees in the south like it was spectator sport while the Confederate flag flew in the wind like how a child flies a kite.
 
As for the KKK, today South Carolina took down the southern cross. I wonder why they did that...
 
I didn't move the goal posts. I'm still playing on my goal posts. I stated that it wasn't until 1984 that the South went solidly Republican. Reagan won by single digit margins in the South in 1980, in 1984 Reagan won many Southern states by double digits, solidifying the Southern vote for Republicans.

OK, I think of winning all the states but Carter's home state a "solid" win for Reagan in the South. We're splitting hairs.

And show me where and when they started allowing Republicans to run. It seems a strange to argue that the South didn't turn Republican on race issues because Republicans couldn't run in local elections.
That only helps the argument that White Racist Southerners remained hard core Democrats.

You're making up straw men. I never said republicans COULD not run, but they just did not. It's just history, JT. It's what happened. And it's obvious you really know nothing at all about the politics of the South. The complete domination of the democratic party in the South wasn't an accident. Here's a primer for you:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/White_primary.aspx

Except that the Southern black voter turnout remained between 40-50% throughout the 20 years after the passage of the VRA. After a 10% jump in 1968 (when segregationist George Wallace won the deep south), the Southern black voter participation dropped back to 1964 rates by 1976. Southern black voter participation didn't start to climb steadily until 1980, 15 years after the passage of the VRA.

And what? I have no idea what your point is.

Championing the CRA doesn't mean he wasn't a racist. It is quite possible for someone to see blacks as inferior and still support their right to vote. Hell, with the general low view Democrat politicians have for the voting public, I'm sure Johnson's belief in the inferiority of the Black citizen was seen by him as a valuable asset for the Democrats.

That's just partisan bs. You think the GOP holds the "voting public" you in high regard? If you do you're a bit naive.

Yes, it's possible to be racist and support their civil and human rights. LBJ pushed legislation for the latter. His attitudes are easily distinguishable from southern white elected leaders who were racists and opposed human and civil rights for blacks.

LBJ was a politician and like all politicians he did things he thought would get him more votes: "I’ll have those ni****s voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” - Lyndon Baines Johnson

What's weird is you've got all this ammo against Democrats who pushed and voted for the CRA and VRA, and just don't ever mention the racists who supported Jim Crow.

My point is that no matter how racist the third hand remembrance of the Republican "Southern Strategy" was, there is no evidence that such a plan was ever employed or effective in swaying Southern White votes. The only place a Southern Strategy as described was actually implemented was by George Wallace running as the Independence Party candidate in 1968. The Southern White vote flipped to Republican during the Reagan era when the Republican party ran on a conservative platform of small government and tax reform, not states rights and VRA opposition of the "Southern Strategy".

I'm tired of debating this. The people involved have described the strategy. It involved race but wasn't limited to race. But it was no accident that Reagan appeared in Philadelphia Miss and championed 'states rights' but didn't mention civil rights.

And you really should read a bit about voting and parties in the South before you start debating the history of the parties in this area.
 
As for the KKK, today South Carolina took down the southern cross. I wonder why they did that...

no need to spike the football

accept the victory and act like you have been there before
 
So what happens when a group decide that the Confederate Soldier Memorial has to go too?
 
So what happens when a group decide that the Confederate Soldier Memorial has to go too?

Will that happen? Not sure.

I certainly hope not, because the majority who are asking for the flag to be removed, myself included, are not asking it to be stricken from history. It's a part of history. A bad part, mind you, but a part all the same, and as a result, should remain on Confederate memorials and in museums.
 
Will that happen? Not sure.

I certainly hope not, because the majority who are asking for the flag to be removed, myself included, are not asking it to be stricken from history. It's a part of history. A bad part, mind you, but a part all the same, and as a result, should remain on Confederate memorials and in museums.

I don't have a problem with A flag from the Confederate era flying over a memorial, although there's no particular reason a memorial requires a flag, and they can all be displayed in a museum, but I do not think the Rebel flag, THAT design, the battle flag of the army of N. Va., should receive any position of honor from any government. Pick one of many flags not historically and currently associated with racists and historical (1960s) efforts to maintain the Jim Crow system in the south....
 
no need to spike the football

accept the victory and act like you have been there before

I think that taking the flag down was a sad thing. My point has been that the "southern culture" has allowed elements like the KKK to represent southern thinking on matters of race. I think that the south at large should have put people like that down a long time ago, and that flag would still be flying in SC.

So when the KKK announced that they were going to march on the flag issue, the south at large just sat on the hands.

It's the south's fault that this is going on.
 
So should they take it down?

You have to be trying very hard to miss the point. Is that on state property somewhere? Did that building's owner install the swastika in protest of Jews getting equal rights? How old is it? Hell, is it in Europe or North America or did you just do a google search for "swastika" and that appeared? It's unlikely that areas with a thousands of years old history with the swastika and that has few if any Jewish residents will have the same association with the swastika.

What we all know is if you have a meeting with a Jewish client next week, you'll leave your good luck swastika tie at home, and you're not going to paint a swastika on YOUR house unless you want to attract protests from your Jewish neighbors or have some desire to appeal to the anti-semitic bigots in your area.
 
You have to be trying very hard to miss the point. Is that on state property somewhere? Did that building's owner install the swastika in protest of Jews getting equal rights? How old is it? Hell, is it in Europe or North America or did you just do a google search for "swastika" and that appeared? It's unlikely that areas with a thousands of years old history with the swastika and that has few if any Jewish residents will have the same association with the swastika.

What we all know is if you have a meeting with a Jewish client next week, you'll leave your good luck swastika tie at home, and you're not going to paint a swastika on YOUR house unless you want to attract protests from your Jewish neighbors or have some desire to appeal to the anti-semitic bigots in your area.

So when Bill Clinton signed the 1987 law dedicating the top blue start in the Arkansas flag to commemorate the Confederacy was he doing it to piss off black people?
 
If you want to have a discussion about another flag, start a thread about it.

When all you have is straw men and red herrings, and can't defend the actual flag itself and it's easily documented recent history as a symbol for the defense of Jim Crow, you might need to rethink your position.

No, this is a thread about a symbol of the Confederacy. Bill Clinton wanted to honor the confederacy... was he doing so to piss off black people? I mean, historically the flag in question was not the flag of the Confederacy but that doesn't stop the idiots from calling it that.
 
If you want to have a discussion about another flag, start a thread about it.

When all you have is straw men and red herrings, and can't defend the actual flag itself and it's easily documented recent history as a symbol for the defense of Jim Crow, you might need to rethink your position.



Just reading along here but I would say that it is you who has not documented ****. "easily documented recent history...." ....let's see it. How many can be documented? six?

Based on the death threats over ****ing pizza and how the left in this forum defended it, I would say this is yet another case of the left building windmills to tilt at.
 
If you want to have a discussion about another flag, start a thread about it.

When all you have is straw men and red herrings, and can't defend the actual flag itself and it's easily documented recent history as a symbol for the defense of Jim Crow, you might need to rethink your position.



Just reading along here but I would say that it is you who has not documented ****. "easily documented recent history...." ....let's see it. How many can be documented? six?

Based on the death threats over ****ing pizza and how the left in this forum defended it, I would say this is yet another case of the left building windmills to tilt at.
 
Just reading along here but I would say that it is you who has not documented ****. "easily documented recent history...." ....let's see it. How many can be documented? six?

How many of what can be documented? What does the number "six" represent? Do you think Georgia incorporated the Rebel flag into its state flag during the civil rights battles cause it liked the colors or something? That SC in the same era rose the same flag above its state capital to commemorate...what? Then kept it there for 39 years because they turned over a new leaf and loved their black neighbors and thought the battle flag fought to keep their black citizens in slavery was a good symbol of racial harmony and their newly found support for civil rights for ALL citizens? It's accidental or coincidental that the KKK and other known and proud racists and white supremacists of that era and today picked the same flag to fly around as a clear signal to their supporters of their beliefs in white supremacy?

Based on the death threats over ****ing pizza and how the left in this forum defended it, I would say this is yet another case of the left building windmills to tilt at.

If you want you can start a thread about that red herring, right after Jt's thread on the Arkansas flag, or whether some 500 year old (?? we don't know...) building in China or wherever should keep the swastika above its doors.
 
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No, this is a thread about a symbol of the Confederacy. Bill Clinton wanted to honor the confederacy... was he doing so to piss off black people?

Not "a" symbol but a very specific symbol used in very specific ways.

I mean, historically the flag in question was not the flag of the Confederacy but that doesn't stop the idiots from calling it that.

Not "the" flag (there were several) of "The" Confederacy but certainly used BY the Confederate army fighting for the Confederacy. Who gives a damn about the difference? And idiots on all sides make this mistake. You're splitting hairs on irrelevancies.
 
How many of what can be documented? What does the number "six" represent? Do you think Georgia incorporated the Rebel flag into its state flag during the civil rights battles cause it liked the colors or something? That SC in the same era rose the same flag above its state capital to commemorate...what? Then kept it there for 39 years because they turned over a new leaf and loved their black neighbors and thought the battle flag fought to keep their black citizens in slavery was a good symbol of racial harmony and their newly found support for civil rights for ALL citizens? It's accidental or coincidental that the KKK and other known and proud racists and white supremacists of that era and today picked the same flag to fly around as a clear signal to their supporters of their beliefs in white supremacy?



If you want you can start a thread about that red herring, right after Jt's thread on the Arkansas flag, or whether some 500 year old (?? we don't know...) building in China or wherever should keep the swastika above its doors.



Wow, didn't even read your own post and the claim made.
 
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