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KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

j-mac said:
So, now the Confederate flag is equal to the Nazi flag in its symbolism? That's way over the top bubba.
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just as the swastika was co-opted to represent something hateful it formerly was not, that is now the circumstance of the confederate battle flag. what was once a proud symbol of southern heritage has devolved thru its use by racists to now be found the symbol of racial discrimination
 
justabubba said:
just as the swastika was co-opted to represent something hateful it formerly was not, that is now the circumstance of the confederate battle flag. what was once a proud symbol of southern heritage has devolved thru its use by racists to now be found the symbol of racial discrimination
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Agree. But I hate to keep pointing out that it wasn't just unnamed "racists" who corrupted the flag - these people included Governors and legislators who in SC rose that banner to protest civil rights, the legislature in Georgia who incorporated it into their state flag to signal their support for Jim Crow, Wallace who stood in front of that flag speaking in support of segregation, the Dixiecrats - basically an offshoot of the Democratic party that had as a major organizing force the support for Jim Crow, etc.
 
jmotivator said:
Nope. The myth of the "Southern Strategy" helps Democrats sleep at night, but in reality in the period where the "Southern Strategy" was supposed to be working the South still voted Democrat or independent, not Republican. The only time in that period where the South voted Republican was in 1972 like the rest of the country because Vietnam appeared to be ending successfully, Nixon had successfully brokered a nuclear arms treaty with the Soviet Union, and opened diplomatic relations with China. In 1976 the south voted Democrat again. It wouldn't be until Reagan's second term that the Southern vote would go solidly Republican and it had nothing to do with racism.
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Now it's just a myth huh? lol

Even though The GOP apologized for doing it.


Even though Lee Atwater explained how the GOP used it in his day.


It never really happened folks. It was all just a dream.

Good God the levels people go through to whitewash history.
 
justabubba said:
just as the swastika was co-opted to represent something hateful it formerly was not, that is now the circumstance of the confederate battle flag. what was once a proud symbol of southern heritage has devolved thru its use by racists to now be found the symbol of racial discrimination
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Only by Northern liberals who don't understand other cultures, and have no interest in tolerance.
 
j-mac said:
Only by Northern liberals who don't understand other cultures, and have no interest in tolerance.
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no. i would speculate most of us are opposed to flying the confederate battle flag over government property or while affixed to government issued items
if that were not the case, i don't think the SC elected representatives would have taken their action to strike the confederate flag from flying on public property
 
justabubba said:
no. i would speculate most of us are opposed to flying the confederate battle flag over government property or while affixed to government issued items
if that were not the case, i don't think the SC elected representatives would have taken their action to strike the confederate flag from flying on public property
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You understand little of SC...You'd do best to your usual inflammatory drivel.
 
j-mac said:
You understand little of SC...You'd do best to your usual inflammatory drivel.
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my family still owns much of a kings grant in upstate SC
my forefathers fought at kings mountain and cowpens

only to illustrate how wrong you consistently are
 
JasperL said:
In 1980 Reagan carried every Southern state but Georgia, Carter's home state.

Bottom line is the white Southern vote has completely shifted in the South, from overwhelmingly Democratic to overwhelmingly Republican, and the reverse is basically true for the black vote.
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They were mostly narrow victories so they didn't show a rock solid southern hold. There were just enough people annoyed with Carter's buffoonery to tip the scale in those states. 1984 was a landslide due to Reagan's performance as president.

It should also be pointed out that during Nixon's supposed "Southern Strategy" the Democrats held a pretty tight hold on the South in congress. It would stand to reason that if the southern whites turned Republican from Nixon's supposed "Southern Strategy" that they would also be voting Republican in Congress, but they weren't. Even during the years when Reagan was at his most popular the Southern congressional reps were mostly Democrats.

All the "Southern Strategy" has to base its conclusion on was that Nixon won the south in one election in 1972, the demographics of all the other presidential and congressional elections from 1968 through the 80s show the South staying strongly Democrat.
 
justabubba said:
my family still owns much of a kings grant in upstate SC
my forefathers fought at kings mountain and cowpens

only to illustrate how wrong you consistently are
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Well, good for your family....Do you live in the Upstate as well?
 
j-mac said:
Well, good for your family....Do you live in the Upstate as well?
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i have a residence there, tho not my primary home, as well as a cottage at myrtle beach. went to school in charleston. i think i am well versed in south carolina and its citizens - dating back to 1952
 
justabubba said:
i have a residence there, tho not my primary home, as well as a cottage at myrtle beach. went to school in charleston. i think i am well versed in south carolina and its citizens - dating back to 1952
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Hmmmm....Interesting, but you don't live in SC as a primary....Let me guess, Somewhere around Winston-Salem.
 
poweRob said:
Now it's just a myth huh? lol

Even though The GOP apologized for doing it.


Even though Lee Atwater explained how the GOP used it in his day.


It never really happened folks. It was all just a dream.
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"The GOP" apologized for doing it? And since the assertion by the Democrats has long been that the southern whites turned Republican because of Nixon's strategy you would expect to see the southern white Democrats actually, your know, voting Republican The dude who apologized was thee years old when the "southern strategy" supposedly happening. Who was he getting his information from, Atwater? Atwater didn't say what the Democrats think he said.

Atwater's "admission" was that a politician could gather southern votes by saying "n----r, n----r, n----r" in the 1950s but that by 1968 you won it by arguing states rights, etc. etc. but what does that actually mean? The Southern DEMOCRATS were winning the southern vote in '54 with "n----r, n----r, n----r", and in 68 it was the INDEPENDENT PARTY that won the south with "states rights" and forced busing arguments. The Republicans didn't win the vote using either of those strategies in the era Atwater was talking about. Atwater, who was a REAGAN consultant, said that Reagan won on economics and strong defense and that the VRA was not an even an issue for southern whites in the 80s when the Republicans actually won the south.

So Atwater talks about a supposed Southern Strategy that never materialized and would have been planned when he was 17 years old. The supposedly racist Southern whites didn't budge from Democrat in congress, and didn't vote Nixon even in '68. The southern white vote turned Republican in the 1980s when Atwater says they were arguing "fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes"

Good God the levels people go through to whitewash history.
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Indeed, the Democrats have been whitewashing history since Reconstruction!
 
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jmotivator said:
They were mostly narrow victories so they didn't show a rock solid southern hold. There were just enough people annoyed with Carter's buffoonery to tip the scale in those states. 1984 was a landslide due to Reagan's performance as president.
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OK, so we've gone from "The South was democratic until 1984" to "Well, OK, so Reagan carried all but one Confederate state in 1980, running against a Southern Governor, one of their own, but not by a landslide!" I guess that's progress.

It should also be pointed out that during Nixon's supposed "Southern Strategy" the Democrats held a pretty tight hold on the South in congress. It would stand to reason that if the southern whites turned Republican from Nixon's supposed "Southern Strategy" that they would also be voting Republican in Congress, but they weren't. Even during the years when Reagan was at his most popular the Southern congressional reps were mostly Democrats.
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Sheesh, you're talking about a region that didn't even HAVE actual general elections for many offices in many areas including my dad's hometown. The Democratic primary was the election - there were no republicans seeking office in his rural county.

All the "Southern Strategy" has to base its conclusion on was that Nixon won the south in one election in 1972, the demographics of all the other presidential and congressional elections from 1968 through the 80s show the South staying strongly Democrat.
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No, it's more than that. In the 1960s, the white vote was overwhelmingly democratic - nearly all (as in approaching 100%) of elected white men (which outside a few urban areas meant all elected officials) were democrats. Now it's just about reversed. Same for the black vote - flipped parties nearly completely.
 
j-mac said:
Only by Northern liberals who don't understand other cultures, and have no interest in tolerance.
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You accept I guess why leaders across the South adopted that flag in the 1940s - 1960s? It was raised as a symbol of defiance against Federal efforts to end Jim Crow. I mean, that's just the history. If you were white standing along the route of some of those black civil rights marches waving the Rebel flag, no one had to guess whether you stood with MLK or George Wallace and his ilk. Wallace didn't pick the Rebel flag as a backdrop by accident, cause he liked the colors. That flag sent a signal to every white person in the South watching him - segregation now, etc. So what don't "Northern Liberals" understand?

BTW, some of us southern boys understand our culture quite well, I've lived in it for 51 years. And what I understand is we have changed here. Those old racist attitudes aren't gone completely, but they're only held by bitter dead enders, losers, morons. It's why I so oppose this region holding onto such a symbol of those shameful days we should be proud to have put behind us.
 
jmotivator said:
"The GOP" apologized for doing it? And since the assertion by the Democrats has long been that the southern whites turned Republican because of Nixon's strategy you would expect to see the southern white Democrats actually, your know, voting Republican The dude who apologized was thee years old when the "southern strategy" supposedly happening. Who was he getting his information from, Atwater? Atwater didn't say what the Democrats think he said.

Atwater's "admission" was that a politician could gather southern votes by saying "n----r, n----r, n----r" in the 1950s but that by 1968 you won it by arguing states rights, etc. etc. but what does that actually mean? The Southern DEMOCRATS were winning the southern vote in '54 with "n----r, n----r, n----r", and in 68 it was the INDEPENDENT PARTY that won the south with "states rights" and forced busing arguments. The Republicans didn't win the vote using either of those strategies in the era Atwater was talking about. Atwater, who was a REAGAN consultant, said that Reagan won on economics and strong defense and that the VRA was not an even an issue for southern whites in the 80s when the Republicans actually won the south.

So Atwater talks about a supposed Southern Strategy that never materialized and would have been planned when he was 17 years old. The supposedly racist Southern whites didn't budge from Democrat in congress, and didn't vote Nixon even in '68. The southern white vote turned Republican in the 1980s when Atwater says they were arguing "fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes"




Indeed, the Democrats have been whitewashing history since Reconstruction!
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Fortunately the people are far too intelligent to buy into your rewriting of history. Nice try though. I'm sure you can find a few stragglers that'll buy your BS but that's about it.
 
poweRob said:
Now
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Adendum to my last post as it was not clear:

Atwater stated that there was a "Southern Strategy" developed by Henry Dent in 1968 that focused on the VRA, states rights and forced busing to win Southern votes. The Republicans lost the South in 1968. Nixon won in a landslide everywhere in 1972, and then the Dems recaptured the South in 1976.

The problem for the Democrats "Southern Strategy" narrative was that the "Southern Strategy" as described by Atwater wasn't employed by the Republicans, but by the Independent Party candidate George Wallace, who won the deep South. The Republicans wouldn't take control of the Deep south until Reagan when Atwater said there was no Southern Strategy. So the only part of Atwaters statement that he can vouch for is the Reagan campaign where he states a Southern Strategy was not used... and it was those campaigns that swayed the South into the Republican column.

Likewise, the other Democrat narrative that the Southern Strategy drove blacks to vote Democrat is also not backed up by the data. THe black vote has been solidly Democrat forever, even when the Democrats "Southern Strategy" of "n----r, n----r, n----r" was being used by Democrats in the south.
 
poweRob said:
Fortunately the people are far too intelligent to buy into your rewriting of history. Nice try though. I'm sure you can find a few stragglers that'll buy your BS but that's about it.
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I'm going by what Atwater said, and what the actual voting returns show, which do not support the narrative that Southern racist whites 1) flocked to the Republican party (they didn't) and 2) That is was due to the Nixon "southern Strategy" (Republicans lost the deep South).

Southern white voters didn't turn Republican until the Reagan years when your source, Lee Atwater, said that Republicans ran only on the conservative platform of "fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes". So are we to take Atwater's third hand recount of the 1968 election or his first hand recount of the 1980 and 1984 elections? Because either way it doesn't support the Democrat narrative.
 
JasperL said:
OK, so we've gone from "The South was democratic until 1984" to "Well, OK, so Reagan carried all but one Confederate state in 1980, running against a Southern Governor, one of their own, but not by a landslide!" I guess that's progress.
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No, nice straw man. Reagan didn't win a landslide in the Southern states in 1980, they were all fairly close races. Reagan didn't solidify the Southern states with huge margins until 1984.


Sheesh, you're talking about a region that didn't even HAVE actual general elections for many offices in many areas including my dad's hometown. The Democratic primary was the election - there were no republicans seeking office in his rural county.
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I'm guessing "your dad's hometown" was not a Congressional district?

No, it's more than that. In the 1960s, the white vote was overwhelmingly democratic - nearly all (as in approaching 100%) of elected white men (which outside a few urban areas meant all elected officials) were democrats. Now it's just about reversed. Same for the black vote - flipped parties nearly completely.
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Nope, the black vote has always voted Democrat in a strong majority. Check Gallup records on vote demographics (here and here for the civil rights era).
 
j-mac said:
Who do you have to be? You don't have to be anyone, but you'll find in life that demanding something in conversation usually makes people think you're an a-hole, and won't lead to anything productive in that conversation.



Really? See when you challenge someone like this---



So, it wasn't good enough for you to have a polite conversation, no. You had to not only call into question what vets told her grandfather, but further insult her by demanding that she document, and research for you what was related to her from her grandfather, instead of doing your own research, as though you are someone who is deserving of some deference in matter. IOW, you were rude, and arrogant. If you don't believe her, fine, you don't have to, but you don't have to be rude in expressing that.



What would a resident of Utah know of "Southern History"? Other than the revision undergone by years of liberal indoctrination that is?



I know full well what this site is about, and really don't need your snarky little explanation of what you think needs to be adhered to...All you do with your attitude is reinforce what is generally thought of liberal expression.



I don't go cryin' to 'mommy' and 'daddy' with every jack ass comment others make like libs do....;)
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Thank you! I am glad someone else here has some sense
 
There's nothing wrong with the Confederate flag!
 
jmotivator said:
No, nice straw man. Reagan didn't win a landslide in the Southern states in 1980, they were all fairly close races. Reagan didn't solidify the Southern states with huge margins until 1984.
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As I said, "but not by a landslide!" You moved the goal posts from winning to winning by huge margins.

I'm guessing "your dad's hometown" was not a Congressional district?
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Again, this is a straightforward sentence: "that didn't even HAVE actual general elections for many offices in many areas including my dad's hometown." Or, more clearly, the Democrat ran UNOPPOSED in most general election races, and 100% of office holders were white and Democrats.

Nope, the black vote has always voted Democrat in a strong majority. Check Gallup records on vote demographics (here and here for the civil rights era).
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I guess you don't really get why we needed the Voting Rights Act in the South. Blacks weren't allowed to register, or allowed to vote, and therefore also couldn't run for office or serve on juries. It's a sort of an important feature about the South and race and parties. I couldn't find a verifiable source, but one article put the number at 3% of blacks registered in the South in 1940. In Mississippi in 1960, many sources say only 5% of blacks were registered. And that was because of Jim Crow, not apathy. So those Gallup Polls just omit blacks in that region.

And you're making the same mistake everyone else does when they say "Democrats opposed the Civil Rights Act!! They're the REAL RACISTS!!! AHA!!!" No, southern whites did, and they were nearly all democrats. Democrats in the entire rest of the country voted nearly 100% FOR the CRA and VRA. And the Democrats didn't run Southern racists for POTUS. LBJ was a Southerner and supported the CRA.

I think your point is the Southern Strategy was more than "appeal to racists and they'll come to the GOP to get away from the blacks" and I agree. Race was just one of several reasons for the shift of Southern whites from nearly 100% democratic in 1960 to dominated by the GOP in the current era. But what you can't ignore is the national Democratic party's support for civil rights caused a huge split in the South, which is why the DIxiecrats emerged in the 1940s and the South went for Wallace in 1968. Goldwater ran against forced desegregation, and won the South. You can say all you want his motives were "states rights" but they just "happened" to align with Southern racists views of white supremacy and would have allowed blacks to be treated as second class citizens for a generation more or so. So the politics of race aren't the only cause, but were a big cause and in any event greased the wheels for the realignment of southern whites back to the party of the despised Lincoln and all that his hated Republican party did during reconstruction.
 
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JasperL said:
As I said, "but not by a landslide!" You moved the goal posts from winning to winning by huge margins.


Again, this is a straightforward sentence: "that didn't even HAVE actual general elections for many offices in many areas including my dad's hometown." Or, more clearly, the Democrat ran UNOPPOSED in most general election races, and 100% of office holders were white and Democrats.


I guess you don't really get why we needed the Voting Rights Act in the South. Blacks weren't allowed to register, or allowed to vote, and therefore also couldn't run for office or serve on juries. It's a sort of an important feature about the South and race and parties. I couldn't find a verifiable source, but one article put the number at 3% of blacks registered in the South in 1940. In Mississippi in 1960, many sources say only 5% of blacks were registered. And that was because of Jim Crow, not apathy. So those Gallup Polls just omit blacks in that region.

And you're making the same mistake everyone else does when they say "Democrats opposed the Civil Rights Act!! They're the REAL RACISTS!!! AHA!!!" No, southern whites did, and they were nearly all democrats. Democrats in the entire rest of the country voted nearly 100% FOR the CRA and VRA. And the Democrats didn't run Southern racists for POTUS. LBJ was a Southerner and supported the CRA.

I think your point is the Southern Strategy was more than "appeal to racists and they'll come to the GOP to get away from the blacks" and I agree. Race was just one of several reasons for the shift of Southern whites from nearly 100% democratic in 1960 to dominated by the GOP in the current era. But what you can't ignore is the national Democratic party's support for civil rights caused a huge split in the South, which is why the DIxiecrats emerged in the 1940s and the South went for Wallace in 1968. Goldwater ran against forced desegregation, and won the South. You can say all you want his motives were "states rights" but they just "happened" to align with Southern racists views of white supremacy and would have allowed blacks to be treated as second class citizens for a generation more or so. So the politics of race aren't the only cause, but were a big cause and in any event greased the wheels for the realignment of southern whites back to the party of the despised Lincoln and all that his hated Republican party did during reconstruction.
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Good posts. You know your history.

A guy who was around at the time might like to pipe in and share a few circa '64 words to add to it...

"The Republican Party geared its appeal and program to racism, reaction, and extremism. All people of goodwill viewed with alarm and concern the frenzied wedding at the Cow Palace of the KKK with the radical right.

The "best man" at this ceremony was a senator whose voting record, philosophy, and program were anathema to all the hard-won achievements of the past decade.


It was both unfortunate and disastrous that the Republican Party nominated Barry Goldwater as its candidate for President of the United States.

Mr. Goldwater represented an unrealistic conservatism that was totally out of touch with the realities of the twentieth century.
...
On the urgent issue of civil rights, Senator Goldwater represented a philosophy that was morally indefensible and socially suicidal. While not himself a racist, Mr. Goldwater articulated a philosophy which gave aid and comfort to the racist. His candidacy and philosophy would serve as an umbrella under which extremists of all stripes would stand.

In the light of these facts and because of my love for America, I had no alternative but to urge every Negro and white person of goodwill to vote against Mr. Goldwater and to withdraw support from any Republican candidate that did not publicly disassociate himself from Senator Goldwater and his philosophy.


While I had followed a policy of not endorsing political candidates, I felt that the prospect of Senator Goldwater being President of the United States so threatened the health, morality, and survival of our nation, that I could not in good conscience fail to take a stand against what he represented."

-Martin Luther King, Jr.

https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/chapter-23-mississippi-challenge
 
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