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Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays[W:297]

Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

Different legal battle. We were discussing the clerk who sues the State for violating its RFA because the employee was terminated for refusing to perform a function contrary to their religious beliefs.

State court.

This is irrelevant.

That judge would have just as much defense as any of the clerks if they refuse to do their job due to their claimed religious beliefs, particularly if any of those clerks are found to be against marriage after divorce, interfaith marriages, or other such relationships.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

That is absolutely not how the law works. Anyone who refuses to issue a marriage license to any same sex couple who is employed by the state to issue those licenses can be sued and is likely going to lose their case under federal law. They are going to be said to violate the rights of the people involved in the case. This will be an equal protection lawsuit.

We aren't talking about a delay that is due to something mundane, and you know it. We are talking about a refusal by a particular clerk to give a same sex couple a marriage license.
You have a right to a marriage license, not a right to force Bob to issue a marriage license to you.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

The law would not be broken. Everyone would get their license. Everyone wins. Sorry the "some pigs are more equal than others" crowd finds that so frustrating.

The law would be broken. You cannot discriminate against people, prevent them from getting a marriage license, which is part of your job, because of your religious objections. It still violates US laws, equal protection. You are an employee of the state, a representative of the state.

It doesn't matter which group of people someone is trying to deny a marriage license to so long as they are legally allowed to enter into a marriage with each other. That is their job. They would be fired for refusing to do their job, which is not legitimately imposing on your religious beliefs, unless you allow it do so. If someone doesn't believe that they can now perform their job, issue marriage licenses without discriminating to everyone, then they need to find another job now.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

You have a right to a marriage license, not a right to force Bob to issue a marriage license to you.

They'll simply replace Bob. That's almost too easy to work around.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

You do realize the difference here right? There was a SCOTUS ruling on this. There is no way to act as if this is going to change, as Alabama was attempting. There is nowhere else. They could claim that they were waiting on the SCOTUS ruling for this, despite the fact that they were still in the wrong.
SCOTUS ruled on whether a State could legally reject same sex couples seeking marriage licenses. They did not rule on whether Bob the Clerk would be forced to issue the license when Barbara, Betty, and Bo were willing to do so.

Now, the problem here also is that you are assuming that because that stuff hasn't happened yet, that it can't happen now or even later to those in Alabama. That isn't true either. It is quite possible that the people are working on lawsuits against those who were denying them marriages, monetary lawsuits to address any loss of money they faced for not being married between that time and the SCOTUS ruling.
I won't hold my breath, and you shouldn't either. Of course, I have the benefit of understanding how legal precedent works.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

You have a right to a marriage license, not a right to force Bob to issue a marriage license to you.

If Bob's job is to issue marriage licenses, then yes, we do have a right to force him to do his job as long as he is getting paid for doing that job. And he has to do it in accordance with laws, impartially.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

That's part of the problem with those laws. I'm not sure that opposition to SSM is in most cases based on sincerely held religious beliefs rather than animus against gays. If you're a clerk, or just an individual, deeply worried about the sanctity of marriage, and the only marriages that cause you concern are those between same sex couples, then you're probably actually not all that concerned about the sanctity of marriage but instead mostly just don't approve of homosexuals.
I think that's a valid concern, and hopefully one that the court system is equipped to handle when deciding such cases.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

SCOTUS ruled on whether a State could legally reject same sex couples seeking marriage licenses. They did not rule on whether Bob the Clerk would be forced to issue the license when Barbara, Betty, and Bo were willing to do so.

I won't hold my breath, and you shouldn't either. Of course, I have the benefit of understanding how legal precedent works.

I understand legal precedent just fine. There is no legal precedent that allows court clerks to refuse to do their job in a way that discriminates against groups of people on the basis of their religious objections.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

Firing employees for not doing their job does not violate the Texas RFA. They are not being fired for their religious beliefs, and their religious beliefs cannot be used as an excuse to discriminate against people. Now, this doesn't mean that they will be fired, but that they can be if they refuse to issue marriage license for couples. The more likely situation is actually that they will be sued, along with the state, for refusing to issue marriage license to same sex couples.
I'll bet that if they're sued, it's more likely the result of animus rather than any sincerely felt "emotional damage".
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

I'll bet that if they're sued, it's more likely the result of animus rather than any sincerely felt "emotional damage".

It would not be animus towards a group of people. It would be emotional damage and anger against the refusal of a person to do their job impartially. If they can't do that, they need to find another job.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

The case would be clerk vs State of Texas. If Texas loses, the only way it would go to Federal Court is if the Attorney General (the guy in the OP telling clerks they have this right) were to appeal. Doesn't seem too likely.

It wouldn't only be a clerk vs state. If the state grants all clerks the right to refuse based on arbitrary religious freedom then any citizen who goes to get a marriage license who is refused will obviously take the state to court. If that happens and that state's supreme court once again agrees with the clerks right to religious freedom and effectively facilitates the act that allows the state clerks to continue to ban same sex marriage after the supreme court has just ordered that no state could do so then those gay citizens could appeal to a court higher than that state's supreme court. OF course, it wouldn't end at that state's supreme court - especially if, as you are suggesting, that state's supreme court has a bias against the community that is being negetively affected by the religious freedom act. These citizens are given more options to fight what they believe is an unfair ruling.

Citizens can request an appeal even when they are challenging a State's Supreme Court. Usually it isn't granted. However - depending on how many clerks within this state refuse to issue the license it could become a large enough issue that the Supreme Court of the United States would have to once again take up the issue.

Which circles back to my initial point. It just sounds like another fruitless battle that won't end in the religious right's favor.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

Under the law, the clerk wouldn't have a case, and you better believe that the state of Texas, even with such a lawsuit, would defend themselves to the highest possible extent.
They do have a case, and I've already stated why it wouldn't go out of state court. The State AG need not appeal.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

I don't think any of those are examples of sincerely held religious beliefs.
Religious beliefs are not dispensation from doing ones job.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

They do have a case, and I've already stated why it wouldn't go out of state court. The State AG need not appeal.

The majority of the cases would not be in the state's control though. The clerk would almost certainly first be sued or face some sort of legal action against him/her, not simply get fired. But even if they get fired, it would be for refusing to perform their job, not because of their religious beliefs.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

It wouldn't only be a clerk vs state. If the state grants all clerks the right to refuse based on arbitrary religious freedom then any citizen who goes to get a marriage license who is refused will obviously take the state to court. If that happens and that state's supreme court once again agrees with the clerks right to religious freedom and effectively facilitates the act that allows the state clerks to continue to ban same sex marriage after the supreme court has just ordered that no state could do so then those gay citizens could appeal to a court higher than that state's supreme court. OF course, it wouldn't end at that state's supreme court - especially if, as you are suggesting, that state's supreme court has a bias against the community that is being negetively affected by the religious freedom act. These citizens are given more options to fight what they believe is an unfair ruling.

Citizens can request an appeal even when they are challenging a State's Supreme Court. Usually it isn't granted. However - depending on how many clerks within this state refuse to issue the license it could become a large enough issue that the Supreme Court of the United States would have to once again take up the issue.

Which circles back to my initial point. It just sounds like another fruitless battle that won't end in the religious right's favor.

In fact, NC might be facing a challenge to a law that actually would do this very soon. And that law would go to federal court because the law itself can be challenged as unconstitutional, by restricting recourse against people who violate other laws simply because of someone's religious beliefs. The First Amendment was never meant to do that.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

The law would be broken. You cannot discriminate against people, prevent them from getting a marriage license, which is part of your job, because of your religious objections. It still violates US laws, equal protection. You are an employee of the state, a representative of the state.
Again, nobody is being prevented from getting a marriage license. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

It doesn't matter which group of people someone is trying to deny a marriage license to so long as they are legally allowed to enter into a marriage with each other. That is their job. They would be fired for refusing to do their job, which is not legitimately imposing on your religious beliefs, unless you allow it do so. If someone doesn't believe that they can now perform their job, issue marriage licenses without discriminating to everyone, then they need to find another job now.
Why do you feel this need to force someone to do something against their religious beliefs when an acceptable alternative can be worked out? The only plausible reason seems to be anti-religious animus.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

It would not be animus towards a group of people. It would be emotional damage and anger against the refusal of a person to do their job impartially. If they can't do that, they need to find another job.
I say 9 times out of 10 it's animus.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

Again, nobody is being prevented from getting a marriage license. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Why do you feel this need to force someone to do something against their religious beliefs when an acceptable alternative can be worked out? The only plausible reason seems to be anti-religious animus.

There almost certainly would be a delay in getting a marriage license, in some cases a delay of more than a few minutes, which is more than enough reason to file a complaint or lawsuit for violation of rights.

I feel a need to force people to do their jobs, the jobs they agreed to do. I don't give a damn where their reasoning for wanting to deny same sex couples marriage licenses comes from, just as I really don't care where people get/got their beliefs for denying marriage to interracial couples comes/came from. It is still refusing to their job based on a belief against some other group. That is not animus toward religion. The fact that it affects certain people more than others doesn't prove animus toward that group that is affected more.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

I say 9 times out of 10 it's animus.

I call bull. I guarantee that if someone at the DMV told you that they would not serve you due to your race, religion or sex, you would be pissed at that person and seek some sort of justice for having been made to feel like you weren't worth that person's time due to something out of your control, and not even because they were busy. It is their job to serve the public, the whole public, not just those they agree with.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

Religious beliefs are not dispensation from doing ones job.
No worries, we can simply change the job description.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

I call bull. I guarantee that if someone at the DMV told you that they would not serve you due to your race, religion or sex, you would be pissed at that person and seek some sort of justice for having been made to feel like you weren't worth that person's time due to something out of your control, and not even because they were busy. It is their job to serve the public, the whole public, not just those they agree with.
Oh, I guarantee you that my skin is much too thick, and my time much too valuable to be wasted on lawsuits everytime someone didn't treat
me the exact same way they treat others.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

No worries, we can simply change the job description.
Being a clerk has a job description in this case it is issuing marriage licenses it would be difficult to change this. Better that the people change jobs, get suspended, or be terminated. The job they are holding has nothing to do with religion and they work for the government which is a non discriminatory non religious employer. A persons personal religious views really don't matter in this case.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

Oh, I guarantee you that my skin is much too thick, and my time much too valuable to be wasted on lawsuits everytime someone didn't treat
me the exact same way they treat others.

If your time is too valuable, then there is no way you would be happy about someone wasting it in delaying in because of their problems with something about you, like your race, sex, religion, spouse, etc.
 
Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

This is simply going to get the state sued, for monetary amounts, as well as these clerks. If I were them, I'd think about that before they deny any marriage licenses. The SCOTUS is not going to allow this, nor are other federal courts and it will move quickly. This is assuming that Obama and the Justice Department doesn't step in before that time.

If many states followed Texas's we could tie up the courts all over the country showing this pathetic law is just that pathetic. Texas is the Lexus of justice.
 
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