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Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

Yeah, can't say we'll agree on Tsipras. I would say it is possible to agree on the fact that it's real test for how 'Europe' has incrementally built itself legally over the past few decades. It's revealed itself to make no sense from where I'm sitting. :shrug:
The biggest mistake was made when those who supported the EU pretended that all European cultures were the same. It should have been Free Trade and nothing more. This was easily predicted, and will not get better.
 
Hopefully, Greece's people will vote for the EU/ECB/IMF package and repudiate the Prime Minister's wishes. While the Tsipiras government will have inflicted significant damage on the Greek economy and Greece's people, acceptance of the package and a restoration of assistance could mitigate the damage.
How ironic that all the ire towards Greece is being directed at those having to deal with the consequences of the mismanagement of the Greek economy, rather than at those who put Greece in this position, i.e. the Greek bankers, the corrupt politicians who ran up the debt and nationalised the private debt, placing the bankers IOU notes on the plates of the ordinary Greek citizens, and the corrupt EU/ECB practices who closed their eyes to the fraud being committed.

Finally, I retain confidence in what Europe has built and the Euro currency. What has been built can and will survive the impulsive and destructive actions of a radical actor. And if the Greek people resoundingly repudiate him in a referendum, his days in office could be numbered and a new election could sweep many of the radicals who inflicted unnecessary hardship on an already-suffering population out of office.
And then what? Accept the conditions and then see the debt continue to rise, the austerity continue to ramp up, destroying more jobs and livelihoods, and the guarantee that the economy never recovers? How will saying yes be of any advantage to the Greeks?
 
All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.

Syriza has caused none of it.

Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.

The past accumulation of debt was built up by earlier governments. The current banking crisis was solely the result of Prime Minister Tsiparas' choice. It never had to happen. With a mature Greek leadership, it would not have happened.
 
The past accumulation of debt was built up by earlier governments. The current banking crisis was solely the result of Prime Minister Tsiparas' choice. It never had to happen. With a mature Greek leadership, it would not have happened.

That's not true. The Greek debt hasn't suddenly increased. Government spending hasn't increased. The past accumulation of debt is what the whole discussion is about. It's not about a debt that the Syriza government has had any hand in creating. This very current banking issue has been created by the limit of the ELA by the institutions in retaliation for Tsipras call for a referendum. Tsipras has called their bluff and hence Juncker has come back with an improved offer, which the Greek government are currently discussing, one that will make the payment to the IMF slightly more possible. of course, Juncker has added the rider that acceptance of this deal will be contingent on Tsipras recommending a yes vote on the referendum - so much for Merkel's assurance that no external force will try to influence the electorate's decision.
 
If a credit company hands over a no-limit credit card to someone who is known to be feckless and irresponsible and that credit card is tied to the savings of many other people who work hard and have built up savings - you think the credit card company is not criminally responsible for the ensuing problems?.

After entering the EU under false pretenses, Greece went out of their way to avoid exceeding the explicit limitations on deficit spending spelled out in the Maastricht Treaty. No, they didn't go out of their way to be socially and fiscally responsible, they went out of their way to hide debt and new loans while they continued to spend on a bloated public sector.

For years Millions of Greek citizens took advantage of unsustainable public sector giveaways including multiple bonuses annually, early pensions and excessive income. All payed for by someone else.

A Nation could be fined severely for exceeding the deficit spending limitations spelled out int he Maastricht Treaty. Blaming the Creditors for any of this is just ridiculous.

We have this thing called "due diligence" we adopted it from US law (I'm assuming you're American) after the 1933 Securities Act

Where was the due diligence from the Greeks when they were spreading their toxic bonds throughout European Banks while taking advantage of the pretense of being a member nation in good standing ? Where was the due diligence when they grew their public sector to unsustainable proportions at the expense of their economy ??


Why would you make it known to the world that your credit investigation and due diligence processes were completely lacking? Especially when your own fortunes and reputations in a one way project are tied completely to your reputation?

Lol...Now your'e just making up excuses as you go along. Other EU Member Nations had no problem adhering to the strict guidelines in the Treaty. Greece gets no sympathy from me and shouldn't get any sympathy from the Troika.

It would appear they had every intention of entering into the Union under false pretenses for the explicit purpose of defrauding their creditors. It's analogous to someone figuring out a way to hack the credit agencies so they could turn their 540 Credit score into a 800 for the purpose of acquiring multiple credit cards

Once the score gets bumped up they go on a spending spree with ZERO intentions of paying back their debt. That's also called Fraud and Greece did it on a National Scale.


Tell that to the Greeks who lost their jobs in the first 4 years of the crisis and then the further losses in this last year..

Yes, there are severe consequences of massive unsustainable deficit spending. Go figure. Americans should see what's happening in Greece right now as a warning of what's to come if we keep spending.

Conversely, the Goofy left wing posters that claim a Nation can borrow, print and spend their way into prosperity are steering clear of these Greece threads because the Greek debt crisis proves them wrong on so many levels.

As for the unemployed in Greece ? You can demagogue this issue all you want. It's irrelevant especially when you consider that the Greek people lived high off the hog for over 20 years on other people's money and then to make matters worse, they elected a hard left wing lunatic Che Guervera worshiping activist to be their PM in 2015.

It would appear that they've been fundamentally corrupted by the entitlement mentality. There's not much hope for Greece apparently.
 
Individual misfortune does not change the facts of the matter.

Nor the addage that you can't get blood out of a stone. The current austerity has collapsed revenues and now they want even more austerity. It makes no sense
 
Lol...Now your'e just making up excuses as you go along. Other EU Member Nations had no problem adhering to the strict guidelines in the Treaty. Greece gets no sympathy from me and shouldn't get any sympathy from the Troika.

There are 13 members of the EU that do not adhere to that Maastricht Treaty's stipulation that debt should not exceed 60% of GDP - and those 13 include France, Netherlands and...Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
 
Nor the addage that you can't get blood out of a stone. The current austerity has collapsed revenues and now they want even more austerity. It makes no sense

What are really being negotiated right now are the terms under which much of the debt will be written off.
 
Well of-course you do.

If Syrzia says jump, Socialist say how high. The Greek people already voted, they elected or they thought they elected a leader. Not someone who's looking for a way to pass off his responsibility by holding a referendum.

He's looking to cover his ass Politically.

But then again, this was the same guy who tried to extort his way out of this mess by claiming Germany owed Greece 300 Million euro's in " Nazi war crime " fines unpaid.

I have a feeling that Tsipiras has realized that, no matter how much of a socialist he is, it really doesn't work when the rubber hits the road. It's great when you're a bunch of wasted college students who don't know any better, it's another matter when you're the leader of a nation in crisis and you're trying to make the actual numbers work.
 
Here's the current state of play. Here are three compelling reasons why the Troika needs to change its direction:

1. The strategy the Troika are insisting Greece pursue has increased the debt, destroyed any possibility of Greece recovering growth and thrown millions of ordinary Greeks, none of whom did anything wrong, into poverty. And that's not just my opinion, it's the IMF's own opinion. They admit that their strategy will not pull Greece out of crisis.

IMF: austerity measures would still leave Greece with unsustainable debt | World news | The Guardian

2. The Troika's attitude to Greece owes more to politics than economics. The IMF's attitude towards unrepayable debts being run up by Ukraine stands in sharp contrast to its hardline attitude towards Greece. Would anyone like to hazard a guess at what political considerations can explain such a two-faced approach?

IMF: Greece vs. Ukraine

3. Greece's exit from the Eurozone risks creating both economic and political contagion that will threaten the entire Euro project, if not the whole EU future. It isn't Greece that has most to lose from Grexit, and that's not the opinion of an unreconstructed Euro-lefty like me. This from the bastion of Neo-liberalism, The Daily Telegraph.

Europe ready for Grexit contagion as Athens gets closer to Russian cash - Telegraph
 
Much of Greec'es debt is held by Germany which benefited hugely from Greece's entry, extending them massive credit to buy German machinery and goods Greece's economy soared until 2007 and the Bankster crash. For the Greek people the novelty of Syriza is their transparency, previous governments have operated behind closed doors with the public kept in the dark regarding negotiations (which mainly appear to have been utter capitulation to the troika) with only the results being announced.
it may just be that a resolution can be found even now. Syriza have come up with a fresh plan, conceding even more than they have done so far, with some thinhope of acceptance by the creditors. The referendum might yet be avoided.
 
Here's the current state of play. Here are three compelling reasons why the Troika needs to change its direction:

1. The strategy the Troika are insisting Greece pursue has increased the debt, destroyed any possibility of Greece recovering growth and thrown millions of ordinary Greeks, none of whom did anything wrong, into poverty. And that's not just my opinion, it's the IMF's own opinion. They admit that their strategy will not pull Greece out of crisis.

IMF: austerity measures would still leave Greece with unsustainable debt | World news | The Guardian

2. The Troika's attitude to Greece owes more to politics than economics. The IMF's attitude towards unrepayable debts being run up by Ukraine stands in sharp contrast to its hardline attitude towards Greece. Would anyone like to hazard a guess at what political considerations can explain such a two-faced approach?

IMF: Greece vs. Ukraine

3. Greece's exit from the Eurozone risks creating both economic and political contagion that will threaten the entire Euro project, if not the whole EU future. It isn't Greece that has most to lose from Grexit, and that's not the opinion of an unreconstructed Euro-lefty like me. This from the bastion of Neo-liberalism, The Daily Telegraph.

Europe ready for Grexit contagion as Athens gets closer to Russian cash - Telegraph

1. Ordinary Greeks did quite a bit wrong. No one pays his/her taxes in Greece.
2. Ukraine's situation is not at all comparable. If the Greeks were fighting for their freedom instead of fighting to avoid paying their bills it might be different.
3. Most economists are unworried by Grexit. Greece's economy is too small, and preparations are already in place.
 
1. Ordinary Greeks did quite a bit wrong. No one pays his/her taxes in Greece.
Only the rich ones. The poor are taxed at source, as in the vast majority of EU states.

2. Ukraine's situation is not at all comparable. If the Greeks were fighting for their freedom instead of fighting to avoid paying their bills it might be different.

So, you admit it's about political will, not economics. That undermines the Troika's entire case, since they insist it's not a political move.
 
A lot of people people do. A lot of people with good incomes underreport.

I'll have to disagree. Based on living there for three years I'd be surprised to find a single Greek who pays what he really owes. They are wonderful people, but they don't believe taxes in Greece are legitimately demanded, and they see evasion as their right.
 
Ukraine is political. Greece is not.

The only explanation for the disparity between the two approaches is political. How ironic if this were to push Greece into the Russian sphere of influence: Default, Grexit, EU exit, NATO exit. Still not worried about contagion?
 
I'll have to disagree. Based on living there for three years I'd be surprised to find a single Greek who pays what he really owes. They are wonderful people, but they don't believe taxes in Greece are legitimately demanded, and they see evasion as their right.

So, you're saying they're Libertarians? :)
 
All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.

Syriza has caused none of it.
Where I agree in principle, also on Syriza not having had any hand in bringing the state to where it wound up, I disagree on the no-responsibility take of Tzipras and Varoufakis in this current stalemate.

These two (and their minions) are beginning to make it sound like they got a call last Thursday, where the bank manager asked them to come in for a talk. To then tell them that their credit line has been canceled.

The main problem of the Greek people currently is that they're not being told the truth by their own. They weren't told it with the impossible promises made during the last election campaign, not with Syriza and associates getting elected and maintaining their stance that they could end austerity, and they're not being told it now with the delusion upheld that all will be well in the future, if only a nation of 11 million and of negligible economy will stand up to the 28 other EU states (inside or outside the currency) and their 500+ million people, a large part of who actually contribute to the coffers rather than taking from.

In this Tzipras and Co. are as prevaricating as all predecessors that profligated the country into its current state.

The sense and reason of imposing austerity on a nation that's already failing economically is another topic altogether, as is the issue of inviting in a country like Greece against all common fiscal sense in the first place..

But today where HERE and that's where the music plays.

This lamentable state has been going on for the past 5 years (as far as surfacing and addressing is concerned) and has gone completely South as of January this year.

Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.
By the latest count it's going to be a "duo". The IMF is unlikely to concern itself any further with a bunch of crooks that publicly declare not repaying any debt to it anymore.

If these latest negotiations were mismanaged (mainly) by the EU finance ministers (not the Troika), then I don't know what the heck to call Tzipras' and Souvlaki's antics. Because even "mismanagement" contains the word "manage".

I don't know enough people in Greece to get a representative picture but those I talk to are all going to vote "yes" (to Europe).

With Syriza getting 36+ pct of the vote in January on promises of what by now is clear they can't deliver, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Greeks go the "yes" route as well.

Even if Syriza got a bit more than Hitler in November 1932.

I hold the Greeks not to be so daft as not to know that "money for nothing and the chicks for free" is strictly something for the HIFI.
 
I'd be surprised to find a single Greek who pays what he really owes.

Perhaps we were both a bit unclear. You had said, "No one pays his/her taxes in Greece." I guess you meant no one pays all their taxes.
 
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