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Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

He may have thought the referendum was a bad idea or the public not informed enough (I haven't actually found where he says this yet) when powerful actors were not obvious to the people but I think all cards are out right now. As a Greek, you wouldn't be able to ignore all the forces at play right now.

I posted the link earlier in the thread. His reasons why a referendum was not appropriate are all the ones aimed at him now.
 
The carnage will begin shortly. Will not be pretty when the stock market opens up tomorrow...
 
You guys remember when the Euro was going to replace the Dollar as the world's reserve currency?

LOL
 
Would you like to explain what was achieved by the previous Greek governments cooperating with the Troika? The debt rose, the economy shrank, mass unemployment, public employees unpaid. The current deal on offer, without debt relief, means exactly the same thing.

Im not defending the previous Greek governments, in my opinion the Greeks have brought this unto themselves and it was decades in the making. What I find even more funny is that there doesnt seem to be any alternatives for a better government even if Tsipras resigns.

Greece has to decide between two radically different and incompatible positions. Tsipras has concluded that they can't have it both ways given the bullish and vindictive position of the Troika, so they have to choose, as a nation, and it's a choice that didn't appear to be inevitable when he was elected.
He was elected based on promises he made which was impossible to deliver. The IMF holds all the cards here so its best they give in to their demands. Im not saying the IMF are good guys either but they are the lesser of two evils at this point.
 
Excellent analysis, and this is the reality that the Greeks are facing. It's horrific, but in comparison with the alternative, isn't it inevitable?

To be brutally honest, the current is a hell of a lot better than what I described. For one your savings wont be worthless.

Caving into the Troika would defer this exact same scenario for what? Three months? Six? Twelve? The Troikas demanded measures are not new. They are the same measures that have been applied by Samaras, Pikrammenos, Papademos, Papandreou to what effect?

Actually they are not exactly the same. The Troika seems to have moved the goal posts a bit, which worries me. I know how the Greeks in general works. They wont do anything unless forced at gun point.. most countries do it this way, but it is worse the further south you get. I understand that the EU/ECB wants to make sure that Greece is sustainable for the future. The big X-factor here is the IMF, I simply dont trust them. Their track record is horrible and their economic and social agenda reads like the handbook of the GOP more times than not. I suspect that it is not a coincidence that the loan that Greece will default on is one from the IMF.

The debt has increased under every premier, the unemployment rate risen, poverty increased. Why should anyone have any confidence that even if Tsipras conceded every point, that the Greek economy would ever turn around?

What do people really expect Greece to do? And what do they think Greece would benefit by doing so?

I dont disagree. I agree fully with certain aspects of what Tsipras wants. I like the idea of extending the current debt repayments to 50 years with no interest but only once the Greek economy has a budget surplus. I like the idea of privatizing as much as you can but also getting as much for it as possible for these state enterprises. I like the idea of actually using growth policies rather than austerity policies.

My problem is that, I have worked with Greeks and I know the latin mindset.. and it is not always the best when it comes to sticking to things and this is where I kinda support the attitude of the EU/ECB. Commit and implement those reforms you have promised.. something that Tsipras like his predecessors has not done fully, and then we can talk about debt sustainability which includes debt forgiveness. But that brings me again back to the IMF, who has one motive in all of this.. profit. If I were the EU/ECB, I would simply buy out the IMF and contain it in Europe.
 
My problem is that, I have worked with Greeks and I know the latin mindset..
Have you tried telling a Greek he's a 'Latin' recently? I think a mountza is the least you'd receive.
 
Have you tried telling a Greek he's a 'Latin' recently? I think a mountza is the least you'd receive.

Yea yea but you know what I mean.... latin, med, Southern European, Northern African.. whatever you want to call it.
 
And tomorrow or in a few days the markets will go up. Happens all the time,..

With no long-term damage? We'll see. Spain and Portugal's bond yields are also rising.

I don't know about where you are, but for the first time ever I've heard Spaniards questioning the sense in remaining in the Euro. Never thought that would happen.
 
With no long-term damage? We'll see. Spain and Portugal's bond yields are also rising.

Yes and it is idiotic.. the clever men/women in the markets should know that you cant compare Greece to any other Euro nation. Why would Spain or Portugal default or ask for debt reduction? Will the UK do it as well? How about the US? Both have more debt than Spain. The economy in Spain and Portugal are pretty good...hell in Spains case it has the most growth of all the Eurozone and more than the UK. The markets are being manipulated by strong forces, mostly out of the Anglo-American sphere, who have basically created this problem in the first place for profit. The amount of false information and propaganda being promoted by financial institutions (many with a direct hand in the problem and till) and the financial news networks who are their willing accomplices, just as they were before the sub-prime crash.

I don't know about where you are, but for the first time ever I've heard Spaniards questioning the sense in remaining in the Euro. Never thought that would happen.

Have heard it before, usually from rabid nationalists. It is a lot of fearmongering and bull****. People are not thinking straight and understand what the consequences are of leaving a currency behind, especially one that is stronger than the what they potentially will have. If the Spanish want the pesetas back, then they want back Franco and massive corruption again... tell them that, because that is exactly what will happen. Having your own currency aint exactly a good thing all the time. Why do you think so many countries have adopted the US dollar or Euro over the years as a secondary (read primary) currency? Because these currencies cant be so easily manipulated by local/national government to plaster over the problems in society and you certainly cant just print money to fix a budget deficit.

I mean look at Greece.. All of Greeces problems could be solved by defaulting and putting in the New Drachma according to the anti-EU/EURO people. Horse****. If Greece survived the destruction of their country by leaving the Euro, then what is going to prevent another corrupt government in the future to just devalue the currency to plug up structural holes in the economy? Italy and Greece and Spain had been doing that for decades if not centuries before that. The UK still does it for **** sake, as does Denmark and others with their own currencies. It does not solve anything and people are not told that by the talking heads because the talking heads most likely have financial motives in a default. And of course with their own currencies, corporations can go back to the bad old days of manipulating markets with price discrimination, an ability they pretty much lost with the Euro.
 
I posted the link earlier in the thread. His reasons why a referendum was not appropriate are all the ones aimed at him now.

Forgive me but this seems like a question of interpretation of what he said?

I take it this is the link -

What Tsipras Had Stated About the Greek Referendum in 2011 | GreekReporter.com

“You know better than me that if the Greek Prime Minister himself tries to have the people face such dilemmas, the real default will be inevitable, and the Greek banks and the Greek economy will collapse before we even reach the voting booth. Just because of the possibility that the people may face such a dilemma, they might vote “No.”

The current Prime Minister of Greece had then accused Papandreou of despair and had characterized his announcement of a referendum as a “disaster for the Greek economy” and a “harbinger of bankruptcy,” considering it a trick used by the Greek government in its effort to buy more time in power. And he had come into the following conclusion: “The most democratic way of expressing the popular will is elections, not a referendum.”

There's a lot to be said - from the old cliche "a week is a long time in politics" to "maybe he's changed views due to actions / information he had no prior knowledge of" etc but right now, as I think it would have been 4 years ago before Germany and France stopped the referendum - it's the right thing to do; whatever we think of Tsipras and his politics.
 
Watching some of the news coverage of scenes in Greece, including a rally with Syriza Party officials in attendance where appeals were made to exit the Euro (These Greeks Are Having a Party - Bloomberg Business), leads me to conclude that at least some faction of that party wanted Greece out of the Eurozone all along. The Prime Minister's pulling the rug from his negotiators at the last minute by announcing a referendum and his essentially hanging is Finance Minister out to dry to make a forceful statement on the government's position on capital controls only to impose them shortly thereafter suggests that he may be among that faction.

Hopefully, Greece's people will vote for the EU/ECB/IMF package and repudiate the Prime Minister's wishes. While the Tsipiras government will have inflicted significant damage on the Greek economy and Greece's people, acceptance of the package and a restoration of assistance could mitigate the damage.

Finally, I retain confidence in what Europe has built and the Euro currency. What has been built can and will survive the impulsive and destructive actions of a radical actor. And if the Greek people resoundingly repudiate him in a referendum, his days in office could be numbered and a new election could sweep many of the radicals who inflicted unnecessary hardship on an already-suffering population out of office.
 
With no long-term damage? We'll see. Spain and Portugal's bond yields are also rising.

I don't know about where you are, but for the first time ever I've heard Spaniards questioning the sense in remaining in the Euro. Never thought that would happen.

The spreads have narrowed in later trading. It's a little soon to be sure what the final outcome will be, but the subsequent narrowing of spreads might be indicative of confidence that the ECB can manage the fallout and Portugal and Spain will be judged on their own risks rather than contagion from Greece.
 
While the Tsipiras government will have inflicted significant damage on the Greek economy and Greece's people, acceptance of the package and a restoration of assistance could mitigate the damage.

All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.

Syriza has caused none of it.

Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.
 
All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.

Syriza has caused none of it.

Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.

How is the ECB, IMF and EU " criminally responsible " for Greece's decision to spend beyond its means ?

Because they " knew " ? If they knew why wasn't Greece's debt downgraded sooner than 2009 ?

And the loan through Goldman Sachs was done in secret, right ?

I'm starting to get the feeling that the entire notion of personal responsibility is a purely right wing concept.

Socialism failed when Capitalism just couldn't pay for it anymore and now the Socialist, instead of borrowing money under false pretenses are demanding payment outright.

Good luck with that.
 
What Tsipras Had Stated About the Greek Referendum in 2011 | GreekReporter.com



There's a lot to be said - from the old cliche "a week is a long time in politics" to "maybe he's changed views due to actions / information he had no prior knowledge of" etc but right now, as I think it would have been 4 years ago before Germany and France stopped the referendum - it's the right thing to do; whatever we think of Tsipras and his politics.

I agree a referendum may be necessary - it might have been necessary for countries joining the Euro in the first place!

However it is not 4 years to mull it over. It's a week since it's a different package and there was no indication he was going to go this way beforehand - his previous quotes, publically available, indicate it as an inappropriate question to ask of the public. It shocked Greeks as much as Troika blazers.

And no one is being forthright to the Greeks what the referendum means. The EC released the offer for public review. The German opposition is the only public figure saying it's a referendum on the Euro.

No further transparency is being offered on what a referendum would mean - 4 years ago or now,
 
Juncker is saying it's a referendum on whether Greece remains in the EU. Not helpful and immediately makes a liar of Merkel who this afternoon said that no external influence is going to be applied to the Greek's decision. This is truly showing the EU at its worst, most bungling, most disingenuous and anti-democratic. What a shambles!
 
Juncker is saying it's a referendum on whether Greece remains in the EU. Not helpful and immediately makes a liar of Merkel who this afternoon said that no external influence is going to be applied to the Greek's decision. This is truly showing the EU at its worst, most bungling, most disingenuous and anti-democratic. What a shambles!

The Greek people voted already.

The elected Tsipras. Its not Merkels fault he doesn't have the courage or conviction to be a leader.
 
I agree a referendum may be necessary - it might have been necessary for countries joining the Euro in the first place!

However it is not 4 years to mull it over. It's a week since it's a different package

The latter part is something we won't have common ground on however yeah, a few more countries would have been better off with referendums but as I remember a few years ago, there was only pro joining publicity being shown. There pro publicity and buildup had been going on since the days of the ERM and tracking each other's currencies.

As for the 4 years - Greece didn't have 4 years to the latest ultimatum.
 
The latter part is something we won't have common ground on however yeah, a few more countries would have been better off with referendums but as I remember a few years ago, there was only pro joining publicity being shown. There pro publicity and buildup had been going on since the days of the ERM and tracking each other's currencies.

As for the 4 years - Greece didn't have 4 years to the latest ultimatum.

Yeah, can't say we'll agree on Tsipras. I would say it is possible to agree on the fact that it's real test for how 'Europe' has incrementally built itself legally over the past few decades. It's revealed itself to make no sense from where I'm sitting. :shrug:
 
~ It's revealed itself to make no sense from where I'm sitting. :shrug:

Absolutely agree. The trouble is the impetus has all been about creating a one-way street with few real safeguards and checks to make sure this structure would stand the test of time.

That's the worst of all worlds really, alternatives are now harder to see and will prove incredibly costly.
 
Your first post to me intimated that this was all Tsipras' fault but having read further, I get it now, the previous years of sliding into a vast and never ending debt to creditors, the transition of Greece into a bankrupt state was not a crisis?

It was bad management; that is not necessarily a crisis.
 
How is the ECB, IMF and EU " criminally responsible " for Greece's decision to spend beyond its means ?

If a credit company hands over a no-limit credit card to someone who is known to be feckless and irresponsible and that credit card is tied to the savings of many other people who work hard and have built up savings - you think the credit card company is not criminally responsible for the ensuing problems?

We have this thing called "due diligence" we adopted it from US law (I'm assuming you're American) after the 1933 Securities Act.

Because they " knew " ? If they knew why wasn't Greece's debt downgraded sooner than 2009 ?

Why would you make it known to the world that your credit investigation and due diligence processes were completely lacking? Especially when your own fortunes and reputations in a one way project are tied completely to your reputation?

It was bad management; that is not necessarily a crisis.

Tell that to the Greeks who lost their jobs in the first 4 years of the crisis and then the further losses in this last year..
 
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