• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

Paul Mason absolutely nails the current situation and the prospects for what will happen post-referendum.

UK Journalist Paul Mason Covering Euro Crisis: Why Greeks Will Probably Vote

I don't agree. The Prime Minister's punt is anything but a "masterstroke." Moreover, it was understood by all the parties that the first round talks would deal with structural and fiscal consolidation. The second starting later this year would deal with the debt relief issue. Both issues are complex and large differences existed among the parties. It was impractical to negotiate both simultaneously. Had the current Greek government negotiated capably early on, perhaps the fiscal agreement would have been in place months ago and that second round would have started. Instead, it wasted enormous time on loud posturing and self-defeating games of brinkmanship. It has now compounded the issue by punting.

Was the government incapable of a complex and difficult negotiation? Did its leaders choose to define Greece's interests as those of Syriza, even as Syriza's interests are far narrower than those of the Greek people as a whole? Was the government always inclined to exit the Euro Zone (which it blamed for Greece's predicament), which it pursued under the cover of a difficult negotiation that wouldn't make it obvious given that Greece's people support remaining in the Euro Zone?

Those are some of the questions that will be examined in the years ahead, even if a moment of sobriety strikes the Greek government and it resumes its basic responsibilities of leadership. It's too soon to tell, but my early guess is that one witnessed elements of the second and third questions.
 
I might be wrong in #71, but we'll know later. The ECB could cap or continue its emergency liquidity assistance to Greece. However, some European media are reporting that some of its members are inclined to pull the assistance and that they may be sufficient in number to do so.
 
I don't agree. The Prime Minister's punt is anything but a "masterstroke." Moreover, it was understood by all the parties that the first round talks would deal with structural and fiscal consolidation. The second starting later this year would deal with the debt relief issue. Both issues are complex and large differences existed among the parties. It was impractical to negotiate both simultaneously.
With respect Don, that's naive. Without any prospect of debt relief, structural modifications would be impossible and no kind of solution could succeed.

Had the current Greek government negotiated capably early on, perhaps the fiscal agreement would have been in place months ago and that second round would have started. Instead, it wasted enormous time on loud posturing and self-defeating games of brinkmanship. It has now compounded the issue by punting.
No one's been wasting time, that's a red herring. Syriza have been in power for exactly 5 months. What they've achieved at home is already quite extraordinary and frankly, the posturing has hardly been exclusively on the Greek side. Schäuble, Dijsenbloem, Merkel, and LaGarde have all been using, let's call it 'undiplomatic' language.

Those are some of the questions that will be examined in the years ahead, even if a moment of sobriety strikes the Greek government and it resumes its basic responsibilities of leadership. It's too soon to tell, but my early guess is that one witnessed elements of the second and third questions.
I think that the leadership they are taking is to say, "We'll go as far as we can to cooperate and work to restructure our economy, but we can only go so far. The Troika are offering us nothing but more of the same measures that have been applied and failed for the past 7 years. Perhaps it's time for Greece to say, 'no more' and deal with the consequences by ourselves. What do you say?"
 
No one's been wasting time, that's a red herring. Syriza have been in power for exactly 5 months. What they've achieved at home is already quite extraordinary

They have achieved absolutely nothing except to bring Greece closer to bankruptcy. The fact that Tsipras has walked away from the negotiations means he wants to play hardball even though he is the one who needs the money- the pure arrogance of these people and its only the Greek people that are to blame since they voted in these clowns.
 
They have achieved absolutely nothing except to bring Greece closer to bankruptcy. The fact that Tsipras has walked away from the negotiations means he wants to play hardball even though he is the one who needs the money- the pure arrogance of these people and its only the Greek people that are to blame since they voted in these clowns.

Would you like to explain what was achieved by the previous Greek governments cooperating with the Troika? The debt rose, the economy shrank, mass unemployment, public employees unpaid. The current deal on offer, without debt relief, means exactly the same thing. The consequences of default and exit might well bring even more severe consequences in the short-term but as Paul Krugman points out:
But the bigger question is what happens a year or two after Grexit, where the real risk to the euro is not that Greece will fail but that it will succeed. Suppose that a greatly devalued new drachma brings a flood of British beer-drinkers to the Ionian Sea, and Greece starts to recover. This would greatly encourage challengers to austerity and internal devaluation elsewhere.

The reason why Tsipras is right to call for a referendum is this:
until now Syriza has been in an awkward place politically, with voters both furious at ever-greater demands for austerity and unwilling to leave the euro. It has always been hard to see how these desires could be reconciled; it’s even harder now. The referendum will, in effect, ask voters to choose their priority, and give Tsipras a mandate to do what he must if the troika pushes it all the way.

Greece has to decide between two radically different and incompatible positions. Tsipras has concluded that they can't have it both ways given the bullish and vindictive position of the Troika, so they have to choose, as a nation, and it's a choice that didn't appear to be inevitable when he was elected.
 
Europe walked away from Greece. Paul Mason is the go-to guy on the subject.

" We’re staying in Europe! says the headline of the Greek liberal paper Kathimerini today.

While the far left government will pose the referendum as a vote for or against austerity, the right will say it’s an in-out vote for the single currency and the EU itself.

The problem is, at around 4pm on Saturday Europe changed. Faced with a proposal from the Greeks to extend the existing bailout until after 7 July, the Eurogroup refused.

At this point chairman Jeroen Dijsselbloem announced there would be “a meeting of the 18” – that is the Eurogroup without Greece. Asked how such a meeting could issue a communique he replied, according to a Greek witness “we can do what we like since we are an ad hoc body”.

The Brussels press corps dutifully reported that the Greeks had “walked out”. But if the Greek account is right, what happened at that moment was the psychological breakpoint of the Euro... "

- See more at: Greece referendum: did the euro just die at 4pm? | Paul Mason | Paul Mason

The only thing in doubt at the moment is whether the Troika will undemocratically pull the plug before the referendum is held.
 
Europe walked away from Greece. Paul Mason is the go-to guy on the subject.

" We’re staying in Europe! says the headline of the Greek liberal paper Kathimerini today.

While the far left government will pose the referendum as a vote for or against austerity, the right will say it’s an in-out vote for the single currency and the EU itself.

The problem is, at around 4pm on Saturday Europe changed. Faced with a proposal from the Greeks to extend the existing bailout until after 7 July, the Eurogroup refused.

At this point chairman Jeroen Dijsselbloem announced there would be “a meeting of the 18” – that is the Eurogroup without Greece. Asked how such a meeting could issue a communique he replied, according to a Greek witness “we can do what we like since we are an ad hoc body”.

The Brussels press corps dutifully reported that the Greeks had “walked out”. But if the Greek account is right, what happened at that moment was the psychological breakpoint of the Euro... "

- See more at: Greece referendum: did the euro just die at 4pm? | Paul Mason | Paul Mason

The only thing in doubt at the moment is whether the Troika will undemocratically pull the plug before the referendum is held.

There would be no crisis had the current Greek government not won office on an irresponsible platform with no chance of enactment. This is on the Greeks.
 
There would be no crisis had the current Greek government not won office on an irresponsible platform with no chance of enactment. This is on the Greeks.

So this crisis has developed only since Jan 28th 2015? :lamo
 
So this crisis has developed only since Jan 28th 2015? :lamo

No it started a while back.

Greece was spending more than they took in in revenues prior to entering into the European Union under false pretenses and then continued to borrow and spend while taking advantage of a single currency and their status as a EU member Nation.

They spread toxic bonds throughout European banks while they continued to misrepresent their financial position on debt and deficits until finally their debt was downgraded in 2009.

Lies lies and more lies until the eventually ran out of other people's money.

Go figure. Debt isn't inconsequential at all.
 
EC has published full draft proposal.

In the interest of transparency and for the information of the Greek people, the European Commission is publishing the latest proposals agreed among the three institutions (European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund), which take into account the proposals of the Greek authorities of 8, 14, 22 and 25 June 2015 as well as the talks at political and technical level throughout the week.
Discussions on this text were ongoing with the Greek authorities on Friday night in view of the Eurogroup of 27 June 2015. The understanding of all parties involved was that this Eurogroup meeting should achieve a comprehensive deal for Greece, one that would have included not just the measures to be jointly agreed, but would also have addressed future financing needs and the sustainability of the Greek debt. It also included support for a Commission-led package for a new start for jobs and growth in Greece, boosting recovery of and investment in the real economy, which was discussed and endorsed by the College of Commissioners on Wednesday 24 June 2015.
However, neither this latest version of the document, nor an outline of a comprehensive deal could be formally finalised and presented to the Eurogroup due to the unilateral decision of the Greek authorities to abandon the process on the evening of 26 June 2015.

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - Information from the European Commission on the latest draft proposals in the context of negotiations with Greece
 
So this crisis has developed only since Jan 28th 2015? :lamo

It had its origins at least as far back as the Karamanlis government. (I lived in Athens 2003-2006.) More recently, the Samaras government had a sound plan to deal with financial difficulties, but was swept out of power by Tsipras's demagogic campaign. Tsipras is now trapped by his own rhetoric, and has brought on the crisis.
 
It had its origins at least as far back as the Karamanlis government. (I lived in Athens 2003-2006.) More recently, the Samaras government had a sound plan to deal with financial difficulties, but was swept out of power by Tsipras's demagogic campaign. Tsipras is now trapped by his own rhetoric, and has brought on the crisis.

Samaras did such a bang-up job that he was defeated. Resoundingly. He was a part of that old, ruling oligarchy that got Greece into the mess. He was Finance Minister at a time when the very worst abuses of corruption were being committed. Hardly surprising he lost and hardly surprising that having done so he's now conspiring with Brussels to explore some kind of coup.
 
It had its origins at least as far back as the Karamanlis government. (I lived in Athens 2003-2006.) More recently, the Samaras government had a sound plan to deal with financial difficulties, but was swept out of power by Tsipras's demagogic campaign. Tsipras is now trapped by his own rhetoric, and has brought on the crisis.

citations needed, but most metrics don't seem to agree

UhIA7nh.png


WDyCYCp.png



despite

sPP6BCy.png
 
Last edited:
Samaras did such a bang-up job that he was defeated. Resoundingly. He was a part of that old, ruling oligarchy that got Greece into the mess. He was Finance Minister at a time when the very worst abuses of corruption were being committed. Hardly surprising he lost and hardly surprising that having done so he's now conspiring with Brussels to explore some kind of coup.

You don't know the history. Samaras served in no Greek government between 1992 and 2009. He had no responsibility whatsoever for the abuses.
 
Samaras did such a bang-up job that he was defeated. Resoundingly. He was a part of that old, ruling oligarchy that got Greece into the mess. He was Finance Minister at a time when the very worst abuses of corruption were being committed. Hardly surprising he lost and hardly surprising that having done so he's now conspiring with Brussels to explore some kind of coup.

Unfortunately, think of poor old Papanderou and what might have been. He also wanted a referendum back in 2011, when creditors and fellow debtor nations may have been forced to concede if he had domestic support to push through with it. This is what Tsipras had to say then:

When Tsipras was asked by Greek journalist Nikos Chatzinikolaou about Greek PM George Papandreou‘s announcement of a referendum in Greece, he replied: “You know better than me that if the Greek Prime Minister himself tries to have the people face such dilemmas, the real default will be inevitable, and the Greek banks and the Greek economy will collapse before we even reach the voting booth. Just because of the possibility that the people may face such a dilemma, they might vote “No.”

The current Prime Minister of Greece had then accused Papandreou of despair and had characterized his announcement of a referendum as a “disaster for the Greek economy” and a “harbinger of bankruptcy,” considering it a trick used by the Greek government in its effort to buy more time in power. And he had come into the following conclusion: “The most democratic way of expressing the popular will is elections, not a referendum.”
- See more at: What Tsipras Had Stated About the Greek Referendum in 2011 | GreekReporter.com
 
You wish.

From 2014:

[h=3]Merkel and Samaras laud Greece's progress on reforms[/h]www.dw.com/en/merkel-and-samaras-laud-greeces...on.../a-17948976


3 days ago - Samaras made it clear that he expects further easing of the repayment conditions for Greece's sovereign debt. He said he anticipated the ...

Please inform yourself.


let's put his "plan" in context

say you are a painter, and have unsustainable credit card debt
you work with your creditors, you get a 2nd job mopping floors
still, you can't really get your debts paid down.
your creditor says, hey, if you cut off your fingers and give them to us, we'll ease your payments a bit
rather than simply file bankruptcy, you agree.
then, when you are no longer able to paint, your debt grows even worse because you lost part of your income stream.
On the bright side, think of your savings on dining out, since you will be eating from a feed tube anyways.

I suppose you can call it a "plan"; I presumed you meant a logical one. Samaras "plan" (accepting even more crippling austerity to benefit banks and oligarchs) was in fact, folly . As seen by the acceleration of wage decline and empoyment that his "plan" produced. It's what's called a feedback loop.
 
News from the front. The Greek Finance Minister on the everchanging face of the "negotiations".

"The Eurogroup Meeting of 27th June 2015 will not go down as a proud moment in Europe’s history. Ministers turned down the Greek government’s request that the Greek people should be granted a single week during which to deliver a Yes or No answer to the institutions’ proposals – proposals crucial for Greece’s future in the Eurozone. The very idea that a government would consult its people on a problematic proposal put to it by the institutions was treated with incomprehension and often with disdain bordering on contempt. I was even asked: “How do you expect common people to understand such complex issues?”. Indeed, democracy did not have a good day in yesterday’s Eurogroup meeting! But nor did European institutions. After our request was rejected, the Eurogroup President broke with the convention of unanimity (issuing a statement without my consent) and even took the dubious decision to convene a follow up meeting without the Greek minister, ostensibly to discuss the “next steps”. ... "



As it happened – Yanis Varoufakis’ intervention during the 27th June 2015 Eurogroup Meeting | Yanis Varoufakis
 
let's put his plan in context

say you are a painter, and have unsustainable credit card debt
you work with your creditors, you get a 2nd job mopping floors
still, you can't really get your debts paid down.
your creditor says, hey, if you cut off your fingers and give them to us, we'll ease your payments a bit
rather than simply file bankruptcy, you agree.
then, when you are no longer able to paint, your debt grows even worse because you lost part of your income stream.

I suppose you can call it a "plan"; I presumed you meant a logical one. Samaras "plan" (accepting even more crippling austerity to benefit banks and oligarchs) was in fact, folly .

We'll have to agree to disagree. Samaras would have kept Greece within the European financial system and enabled eventual recovery and growth. Tsipras is about to lead Greece into the wilderness and undermine future prospects. He will set Greece back a generation.
 
We'll have to agree to disagree. Samaras would have kept Greece within the European financial system and enabled eventual recovery and growth. Tsipras is about to lead Greece into the wilderness and undermine future prospects. He will set Greece back a generation.


They've already been set back at least 2 generations by the decisions of Samaras
 
Tsipras is now trapped by his own rhetoric, and has brought on the crisis.

I predict a "yes" vote. I believe the government will go through the motions of calling for a "no" vote, hoping the referendum will pass. That way, they can maintain support from opponents of austerity while at the same time the door would remain open to a compromise that would avoid a Grexit. I see this as a very risky strategy, but I don't see an alternative.
 
let's put his "plan" in context

say you are a painter, and have unsustainable credit card debt
you work with your creditors, you get a 2nd job mopping floors
still, you can't really get your debts paid down.
your creditor says, hey, if you cut off your fingers and give them to us, we'll ease your payments a bit
rather than simply file bankruptcy, you agree.
then, when you are no longer able to paint, your debt grows even worse because you lost part of your income stream.
On the bright side, think of your savings on dining out, since you will be eating from a feed tube anyways.

I suppose you can call it a "plan"; I presumed you meant a logical one. Samaras "plan" (accepting even more crippling austerity to benefit banks and oligarchs) was in fact, folly . As seen by the acceleration of wage decline and empoyment that his "plan" produced. It's what's called a feedback loop.

If the alternative to " austerity " is just more deficit spending, where does the money come from ?

Greece was kicked out of the bond markets ( as if anyone would buy their debt again ).

And the Greek people and the radical left wing ideologues like Tsipras didn't have a problem with the " Bankers " and Oligarchs when they were footing the bill to keep Greece's bloated public sector going.
 
Back
Top Bottom