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Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

The IMF is partly to blame for what happened in Greece: because they allowed the Greeks to borrow more than 200% of the country's quota (which is determined by each country's capital contribution to the IMF) which was the IMF stated limit for everybody,and then moreso than any other country- in fact I believe its over 1000%.

But unless Tsipras's party enacts major reforms (such as downsizing government spending and reforming tax collections to increase revenue) and so far it seems to have no intention of doing so, then this new government really is no better than the government it replaced.

Its not the IMFs fault at all.

Nor is it their creditors fault

Greece's borrowed secretly so it could perpetuate the pretense of being a member nation in good standing.

It lied to get into the Union and then continued to lie right up until it received its first credit down grade in 2009.
 
Not true. The Greeks never agreed to that 1990 treaty. In actual fact, they were never asked to. They have never accepted the 2+4 agreement and hence have never cancelled the war reparations debt that Germany still owes.

I meant 1960. That's when the payments issue with Greece was resolved.
 
Not true. The Greeks never agreed to that 1990 treaty. In actual fact, they were never asked to. They have never accepted the 2+4 agreement and hence have never cancelled the war reparations debt that Germany still owes.

Lol !!

Sure is convenient timing for the Greek Government then isn't it ?

Greece didn't seem to have have a problem with Germany's war reparations when they were loading up German banks with worthless bonds.
 
That can be changed I think.

http://money.cnn.com...ages/index.html

I don't see how Syriza can "lose" politically here, whereas Merkel & minions have nothing to gain. Except maybe contempt.

There is no welfare state a la Germany or Sweden in Greece. If you are out of a job for more than a year (or maybe 9 months) apparently you do not receive anything, not even foodstamps.



The idiot politicians like Merkel do not enjoy the suffering of the poorer half of the Greek population. They simply do not care about them. What they cannot admit is that the austerity measures have utterly failed (they have rather worked as the worked everytime and everywhere and exactly as predicted by some economists, i.e. they made the situation worse) and they want to avoid a similar development in Portugal (or God forbid, Spain). So Greece might be thrown to the dogs to avoid a leftist development in e.g. Spain at all costs.

Wow !

You know who doesn't care about the poorer half of the Greek population ?

The corrupt Greek politicians that borrowed their Nations way into insolvency.

And "Austerity " is not and was never meant to be a strategy for economic growth or prosperity.

Austerity is simply a consequence. Its a consequence of unsustainable deficit spending and generally speaking, Socialist agenda's run amok.
 
I meant 1960. That's when the payments issue with Greece was resolved.

No, it wasn't. The Greeks were very clear that the money received (a fraction of what Germany forcibly borrowed) was a down-payment. They said it at the time and their position has never changed.
 
Lol !!

Sure is convenient timing for the Greek Government then isn't it ?

Greece didn't seem to have have a problem with Germany's war reparations when they were loading up German banks with worthless bonds.

I guess the difference is that the Germans were perfectly able to say no to making those loans, whereas in 1942 the Greeks weren't quite so free. To say that Greece is only just mentioning this now is evidence that you haven't been paying attention. They've been consistent in their insistence that Germany has not repaid their war debts.
 
the same guy who tried to extort his way out of this mess by claiming Germany owed Greece 300 Million euro's in " Nazi war crime " fines unpaid.

Fenton has posted this repeatedly. The issue is the "forced loan," not war reparations.

I don't agree that the call for a referendum is a "punt," a lack of leadership. I'd call it democracy.

I continue to believe that there will be no Grexit. The Right in Europe wants it, but they're not in control. I think moderates will prevail and this very difficult issue will somehow be resolved.
 
Fenton has posted this repeatedly. The issue is the "forced loan," not war reparations.

I don't agree that the call for a referendum is a "punt," a lack of leadership. I'd call it democracy.

I continue to believe that there will be no Grexit. The Right in Europe wants it, but they're not in control. I think moderates will prevail and this very difficult issue will somehow be resolved.

Democracy ??

Lol !! Tsipras was elected.

Right ?

Voters chose him to lead their Nation and that would include making tough choices and then taking responsibility for the consequences of those choices.

But then again, what does a hard left lunatic socialist know about " responsiblity "

Nada. Tsipras admires people like Che Guevara. Hell, he named his second som after Guevaram, nothing he does surprises me.

This decision by Tsipras to offload his responsibility on his citizens shouldn't surprise anyone really.

And your defense of Tsipras isn't surprising either.

Tsipras is going to call for a referendum NOT in the spirit and interest of Democracy.

He's doing it so he can tell the Greek population that they're responsible for the inevitable consequences that are going to come with a Greek default

He can tell them " dont blame me, you voted for this "

Lol...what a low life.
 
No, it wasn't. The Greeks were very clear that the money received (a fraction of what Germany forcibly borrowed) was a down-payment. They said it at the time and their position has never changed.

Perhaps. It's odd, though, that past Greek governments didn't pursue the case through the International Court of Justice. A mechanism exists for resolving the dispute.
 
Perhaps. It's odd, though, that past Greek governments didn't pursue the case through the International Court of Justice. A mechanism exists for resolving the dispute.

It's not odd at all.

Greece needed to sell it's worthless bonds to other EU Nations States, including Germany. Any attempt to extort Germany back then would have probably come with consequences that may have led to Germany abandoning Greek debt.

This call for reparations or for Germany debts to be paid is simply the consequence of a radical left wing Greek PM trying to scam his way out of this mess. It was a dishonest and exceedingly stupid thing to do from a man that idolizes Che Guevara to the point where he named his second son after the revolutionary .

Syrzia shouldn't have gained power. He's a radical ideologue, not a leader, not a statesman.
 
It's not odd at all.

Greece needed to sell it's worthless bonds to other EU Nations States, including Germany. Any attempt to extort Germany back then would have probably come with consequences that may have led to Germany abandoning Greek debt.

This call for reparations or for Germany debts to be paid is simply the consequence of a radical left wing Greek PM trying to scam his way out of this mess. It was a dishonest and exceedingly stupid thing to do from a man that idolizes Che Guevara to the point where he named his second son after the revolutionary .

Syrzia shouldn't have gained power. He's a radical ideologue, not a leader, not a statesman.

I agree that the call for reparations was a crude tactic aimed at evading a serious attempt to address Greece's debt crisis. Unfortunately, the current regime gained power through unsustainable promises and wasted an inordinate amount of time on sophomoric tactics that undercut the patience of the EU, ECB, and IMF. All the while, as time was squandered, Greece's economic difficulties were worsened. Now, in its ultimate act of failure, it abdicated responsibility for a difficult and complex decision to Greece's people. A better approach would have been its resignation and call for immediate elections to allow a government willing to exercise leadership to take office.

The Prime Minister, his leadership team, and Syriza Party have now exposed Greece's people to the risk of a financial system collapse and severe Depression. Worse, they did so after Greece has already seen its economy contract by more than 25% since 2007 and its unemployment rate soar toward 26%.

I empathize with Greece's people for the needless additional suffering the current government has imposed on them, and their being cast adrift by that government's incredible lack of willingness to assume even basic leadership responsibility.
 
From CNBC:

Reuters just flashed this:

GREEK OPPOSITION LEADER SAMARAS TO MEET GREEK PRESIDENT ON SUNDAY


I am not sure what will be discussed, but if the President and Opposition will move to replace the Tsipiras government within Greece's constitutional framework, that would be a constructive step.
 
I agree that the call for reparations was a crude tactic aimed at evading a serious attempt to address Greece's debt crisis.

How do you feel about the call for consideration of the extortion? This is an obligation that even the Nazis acknowledged. Was that criminal regime more "responsible" than the current German government?
 
From CNBC:

Reuters just flashed this:

GREEK OPPOSITION LEADER SAMARAS TO MEET GREEK PRESIDENT ON SUNDAY


I am not sure what will be discussed, but if the President and Opposition will move to replace the Tsipiras government within Greece's constitutional framework, that would be a constructive step.

That doesn't sound good at all. This could get really ugly.
 
How do you feel about the call for consideration of the extortion? This is an obligation that even the Nazis acknowledged. Was that criminal regime more "responsible" than the current German government?

The Nazi extortion was wrong. A payment was made in 1960 for damages. If Greece believes that payment isn't appropriate, the International Court of Justice is the appropriate forum for addressing its claim, as Germany believes all claims have been resolved. That's an entirely different matter from the current Greek government's lack of serious negotiating strategy that has now left the country on the brink of leaving the Euro Zone and perhaps against the wishes of Greece's people. Apparently there was a poll last week in which 57% of Greeks favored remaining within the Euro Zone even if Greece fully met all of the creditors' requirements.

What the current Greek government has done isn't necessarily criminal. It is an astonishing abdication of leadership responsibility with disregard for the consequences of that abdication.
 
Apparently there was a poll last week in which 57% of Greeks favored remaining within the Euro Zone even if Greece fully met all of the creditors' requirements.

Then we can hope that the referendum passes, strengthening the government's hand in making decisions that some will protest in the streets, no?
 
That doesn't sound good at all. This could get really ugly.

I highly doubt that any kind of "coup" would occur, especially as a coup would further estrange Greece from the European Union. There might be efforts to see if a new coalition can be formed or a new election brought about. The current government's abdication of leadership has pushed Greece onto the brink of a grave national crisis and I'm sure the opposition and other responsible political leaders are trying to see if they can avoid the Tsipiras government's catastrophe. Nothing may come of the talks, but at least some are trying to avert catastrophe.
 
Then we can hope that the referendum passes, strengthening the government's hand in making decisions that some will protest in the streets, no?


If a referendum is held--and I hope the ECB will retain its assistance to Greece's banks until after the results are in--I very much hope that the Greek people will vote for accepting the EU/ECB/IMF terms. Such an outcome would be a rejection of the Tsipiras government's position. The current Greek government intends to campaign against that outcome rather than ask for public support for accepting the unpopular terms.

In terms of the actual referendum, there are news reports that two technical questions might be involved, not a simple straight-forward vote, meaning that the people would have to accept the EU/ECB/IMF terms in both cases for those terms to be accepted. The wording remains to be seen, but there is risk that the questions might not be transparent given the current government's tactics to date. At the same time, it remains to be seen if the EU/ECB/IMF will keep their terms on offer (I hope they do).
 
I very much hope that the Greek people will vote for accepting the EU/ECB/IMF terms. Such an outcome would be a rejection of the Tsipiras government's position.

If the government opposes the deal, why not just reject it and leave it that? I figure you'll say they're looking for "cover." I think they're looking for support to accept the deal, while at the same time keeping those who are angry about the damage caused by austerity from pulling their support for the government.

>>The current Greek government intends to campaign against that outcome rather than ask for public support for accepting the unpopular terms.

I think you underestimate them. I think they're in a very difficult position that they're trying to finesse, not cynically for their own political interest, but in furtherance of the interest of the Greek people.
 
I think they're in a very difficult position that they're trying to finesse, not cynically for their own political interest, but in furtherance of the interest of the Greek people.

The time for finessing the gaps was much earlier, not now. I don't doubt that the government believes it is working in the interests of the Greek people, but it's difficult to envision how a potential banking system collapse, capital controls, and possible exit from the Euro Zone is in the interests of the Greek people. Leadership isn't always easy, but choosing avoidable catastrophe over a challenging fiscal and structural consolidation is not an act of leadership. Asking the people to ratify that fully avoidable outcome is even worse.

It appears, barring some modest extension under the cover of an implementation transition, the ECB's emergency support could be pulled from Greece's banking system.

Ministerial statement on 27 June 2015 - Consilium
 
The time for finessing the gaps was much earlier, not now.

I disagree. I think they've been doing it all along and need to continue.

>>it's difficult to envision how a potential banking system collapse, capital controls, and possible exit from the Euro Zone is in the interests of the Greek people.

It's not, and the government agrees.

>>Leadership isn't always easy, but choosing avoidable catastrophe over a challenging fiscal and structural consolidation is not an act of leadership.

That is not the government's choice.

>>Asking the people to ratify that fully avoidable outcome is even worse.

They need to maintain their support within the country so that a positive outcome can be achieved. How hard will they push for a "no" vote?

>>some modest extension under the cover of an implementation transition

I expect just that.
 
Democracy ??

Lol !! Tsipras was elected.

Right ?

Voters chose him to lead their Nation and that would include making tough choices and then taking responsibility for the consequences of those choices.

But then again, what does a hard left lunatic socialist know about " responsiblity "

Nada. Tsipras admires people like Che Guevara. Hell, he named his second som after Guevaram, nothing he does surprises me.

This decision by Tsipras to offload his responsibility on his citizens shouldn't surprise anyone really.

And your defense of Tsipras isn't surprising either.

Tsipras is going to call for a referendum NOT in the spirit and interest of Democracy.

He's doing it so he can tell the Greek population that they're responsible for the inevitable consequences that are going to come with a Greek default

He can tell them " dont blame me, you voted for this "

Lol...what a low life.

It's obvious that the hard right lunatic fascist argument from ignorance is being well brayed. Syriza didn't exist and had no part of being given the illegal loans. They were elected to end austerity. They are unable to achieve that, so have returned to their electorate to call for judgement on their work so far, and what should be done. They are under attack in Greece from actual communists for giving the Troika too much!
 
I highly doubt that any kind of "coup" would occur, especially as a coup would further estrange Greece from the European Union. There might be efforts to see if a new coalition can be formed or a new election brought about. The current government's abdication of leadership has pushed Greece onto the brink of a grave national crisis and I'm sure the opposition and other responsible political leaders are trying to see if they can avoid the Tsipiras government's catastrophe. Nothing may come of the talks, but at least some are trying to avert catastrophe.

Any coup would be EU-sponsored, to sideline the democratically elected government of Greece from carrying out it's mandate.
 
From Reuters:



Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock | Reuters

Leadership requires difficult choices at times. Unfortunately, the Greek Prime Minister decided to punt on his leadership responsibilities by delegating what is a grave decision to the general public, who almost surely lack the details related to Greece's fiscal situation, the EU/ECB/IMF offer, and understanding of the consequences involved. At the same time, he has shown little urgency with the scheduling, as the Greek Parliament would meet to discuss a referendum to be held on July 5, which is after the June 30 deadline for Greece's IMF payment.

Even if the Greek Prime Minister believes his punt will give him absolution from the consequences should Greece wind up in arrears to the IMF, it won't. His inability to lead lends further explanation to the chaotic path he has taken over the past several months, which has eroded Greece's small leverage, undermined the good faith others had, and imposed the Greek people to a deepening economic contraction and banking system risks. At a time when Greece needs a leader, it has a Prime Minister who lacks leadership capacity. This only compounds Greece's already terrible situation.

Au contraire. Tsipras has given the voters time to get their money out of the banks before the default. I have assumed the default a fait accompli since he was elected. His job is to represent the electorate, not the financial health of the Big Banks or the EU. If the citizens can get what money they have out of the banks before the collapse, they will preserve a small amount of solvency while the economy takes several years recovering. The IMF and the EU keep mouthing austerity, just like in Ukraine. How's that working in Ukraine?
 
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