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Supreme Court Upholds Obama Health Care Subsidies[W:700]

Thanks for confirming you have no clue about what the ACA involved.

And thanks for the Hannity phrases #16., #128 and #34.

Thanks for confirming that results don't and the reality is you think only with your heart. You want to will cost and quality benefits from a bloated Federal Bureaucracy because you are very naïve and gullible.
 
Obamacare is not a solution. It's making the problem incredibly worse. That is the real point and fact. Just a side question, while I admire your acts of charity involving the group of 70, how many of them have substance abuse issues?

Well, since it's a long term (6 months - 2 years) residential rehab center (that's the primary function), almost all of them. They come off the streets or from jail/prison mostly. On the VA side (another 80 men or so) we take homeless veterans, for any reason. About 80% of them have a substance abuse issue, most of them related to an underlying mental health problem (about 70% of the addicted have dual mental illness/addiction diagnoses).

And I don't see their addiction issues as mitigating the act of charity, as your phrasing suggests. But beyond that we require non-disabled residents to work as part of the rehab, and they're in jobs that the non-addicted often fill. The point is their lack of insurance is because they are working poor, not that they are addicted.
 
Well, since it's a long term (6 months - 2 years) residential rehab center (that's the primary function), almost all of them. They come off the streets or from jail/prison mostly. On the VA side (another 80 men or so) we take homeless veterans, for any reason. About 80% of them have a substance abuse issue, most of them related to an underlying mental health problem (about 70% of the addicted have dual mental illness/addiction diagnoses).

And I don't see their addiction issues as mitigating the act of charity, as your phrasing suggests. But beyond that we require non-disabled residents to work as part of the rehab, and they're in jobs that the non-addicted often fill. The point is their lack of insurance is because they are working poor, not that they are addicted.

I do not see the addiction issues as mitigating the act of charity either. However it is pertinent information. It is likely the reason that many, if not all of them are poor. Just as many (not all) of the millions who claimed they could not afford health insurance prior to obamacare put themselves in that situation by making poor decisions. And the picture in your link showing numerous people showing up begging to see a doctor was not the fault of a broken healthcare system before or since Obamacare.
 
Yeah, for sure. Pragmatism requires some underlying goals and ideology relies on factual reality as well because that's the medium in which ideologues try to implement their ideology. But the emphasis and focuses are different. Pragmatists generally think the goals are pretty easy and obvious- the most material well being for the most people for example, and that the hard part is figuring out how to make that actually happen. Ideologues generally think the practical details are trivial to figure out and the principles are the hard part.

What?

Ideology by its nature ignores reason.

Have you ever even read a political science text?
 
That never was the intent as it was all about coverage.

How, after five and a half years, have you not even accidentally found out anything about this law? This level of cluelessness was inexcusable in 2009; at this point it's just mind-boggling.
 
I mean, yeah, certainly the individual members of any group are wrong. Even liberals as an entire group can be wrong. But, the liberal position I'm talking about isn't the mix of all the views liberals hold, I mean the established positions that liberals as a whole generally hold. When the general liberal position and the general conservative position differ on a point, the liberal position is almost always more closely aligned with the facts. That isn't because liberals are smarter, more rational or better informed necessarily, it is because liberals as a whole tend to be deciding which side of an issue to take by looking at facts where conservatives tend to pick a side based on ideology. For example, the liberal position on a given tax might be that they support it because it will reduce inequality and inequality is bad because it has effects A, B and C, and because they believe the impact of that tax on growth will be minimal, as found in studies X, Y and Z, and so on, while the conservative position might oppose the same tax for purely ideological reasons that don't depend on factual claims at all. For example, they might think "people should keep what they earn" or that "taxes are theft" or some such ideological stance.

Pragmatism isn't necessarily inherently superior to ideology. But pragmatists are definitely more aligned with the facts, since that is the material pragmatists work with, where ideologues work with ideological principles.

Horse ****.

One example:

two years of welfare in the form of "unemployment benefits". "liberals" which you are not, around the world were funding retraining programs...and they came out of the Obama bummer years ahead of your messiah.

There are no liberals in the United States, there are varying degrees of conservatives and a bunch of uneducated socialists willing to sell their vote for personal comforts.
 
What?

Ideology by its nature ignores reason.

Have you ever even read a political science text?

No, it doesn't ignore reason. Or at least it doesn't have to. For example, Kant was a hyper-rational ideologue. He believed that he reasoned out a set of abstract principles that trump pragmatic reality. Same with Hobbes. Etc.

What it ignores, to the extent that it can, is factual, practical, matters. It can't totally ignore those either though, since it ultimately needs to implement its principles in reality.
 
How, after five and a half years, have you not even accidentally found out anything about this law? This level of cluelessness was inexcusable in 2009; at this point it's just mind-boggling.

Because liberalism is all about intent, intent to better serve people, intent that never leads to solving a problem but rather creating more and bigger problems along with more people dependent. What happens when ACA fails? Single Payer? Yes, now isn't that great, Medicare and Medicaid on steroids. Brilliant and typical liberal/socialist incremental approach. Why don't you just admit who you are?
 
Horse ****.

One example:

two years of welfare in the form of "unemployment benefits". "liberals" which you are not, around the world were funding retraining programs...and they came out of the Obama bummer years ahead of your messiah.

There are no liberals in the United States, there are varying degrees of conservatives and a bunch of uneducated socialists willing to sell their vote for personal comforts.

That just isn't remotely true. As a matter of fact, Obama is beating the other western European countries by the widest margin any president in modern times has:

101.gif

gdp relative to nato

At this point, it isn't even very controversial how we pulled that off- we went with a liberal response to the recession and Europe went with a conservative response. We stimulated the economy and they rolled out austerity. Austerity is exactly the wrong response to a recession.

Again, I get that conservatives assume liberal policies don't work, but factually, it is clear that they do. That's why the experts, in this case economists, overwhelmingly agree with the liberals.
 
I do not see the addiction issues as mitigating the act of charity either. However it is pertinent information. It is likely the reason that many, if not all of them are poor. Just as many (not all) of the millions who claimed they could not afford health insurance prior to obamacare put themselves in that situation by making poor decisions. And the picture in your link showing numerous people showing up begging to see a doctor was not the fault of a broken healthcare system before or since Obamacare.

First of all, we have millions of jobs that pay poverty wages. If you want to claim that making better decisions can eliminate poverty level jobs and poverty, there is no evidence for that at all. Jane makes better decisions and gets a better job than Walmart cashier. Fantastic! Someone will take her place. And, what? Anyone sitting in that chair taking your money doesn't get healthcare?

Second, yes, it's sort of a given that many of the poor made bad decisions that got them there. And so they don't get healthcare? And should die for lack of care? I don't think you're suggesting that, so other than blaming them for their condition, I'm not sure what the point is.

Others are poor because they live in poor areas, with crap schools, are functionally illiterate, maybe made a decent living as manufacturing workers or miners etc. until the plant moved to China and have few options, are disabled, mentally or physically, etc.

And what you said about the picture is they all had access to Medicaid or Medicare and so didn't need to get in line at 1am, camp out, to get seen by a doctor or dentist. You were wrong about that. If not, why did they do it? Because camping out all night is fun? And that we have RAM in Kentucky is evidence of a healthcare system that works as intended? Perhaps to you, not to me.
 
No, it doesn't ignore reason. Or at least it doesn't have to. For example, Kant was a hyper-rational ideologue. He believed that he reasoned out a set of abstract principles that trump pragmatic reality. Same with Hobbes. Etc.

What it ignores, to the extent that it can, is factual, practical, matters. It can't totally ignore those either though, since it ultimately needs to implement its principles in reality.


You've never read a civics text have you?

And nothing ever out of the Obama camp, Clinton either has ever been factual. You lose your argument based on what is real now, today, happening in the white house, noit your imagination.
 
You've never read a civics text have you?

Yes, I obviously know way more about this stuff than you do, so maybe just drop the attitude.

And nothing ever out of the Obama camp, Clinton either has ever been factual. You lose your argument based on what is real now, today, happening in the white house, noit your imagination.

I think I see the problem... You're confusing stuff Limbaugh or whoever tells you with reality. That stuff is only pretend.
 
That just isn't remotely true. As a matter of fact, Obama is beating the other western European countries by the widest margin any president in modern times has:

101.gif

gdp relative to nato

At this point, it isn't even very controversial how we pulled that off- we went with a liberal response to the recession and Europe went with a conservative response. We stimulated the economy and they rolled out austerity. Austerity is exactly the wrong response to a recession.

Again, I get that conservatives assume liberal policies don't work, but factually, it is clear that they do. That's why the experts, in this case economists, overwhelmingly agree with the liberals.

Oh, now I get it.

a memeist, hyperbole out of the white house basement.

Please enjoy your trolling and disinformation...we've had seven years of it and it's really ****ing boring.

I hate liars and Obama is one making every one of his followers liars as well.

"You can keep your plan..." yeah that proves "liberal" is truth!
 
Oh, now I get it.

a memeist, hyperbole out of the white house basement.

Please enjoy your trolling and disinformation...we've had seven years of it and it's really ****ing boring.

I hate liars and Obama is one making every one of his followers liars as well.

"You can keep your plan..." yeah that proves "liberal" is truth!

I'm posting data and sources to back up what I'm saying. You're just hurling random, ignorant, insults. And you think I'm the one who is trolling? It doesn't seem like you understand what that word means.
 
That just isn't remotely true. As a matter of fact, Obama is beating the other western European countries by the widest margin any president in modern times has:

101.gif

gdp relative to nato

At this point, it isn't even very controversial how we pulled that off- we went with a liberal response to the recession and Europe went with a conservative response. We stimulated the economy and they rolled out austerity. Austerity is exactly the wrong response to a recession.

Again, I get that conservatives assume liberal policies don't work, but factually, it is clear that they do. That's why the experts, in this case economists, overwhelmingly agree with the liberals.

What really bothers me is how little you know about GDP and the components of GDP in this country vs. the European economy. Please figure it out and then you will see why the European economy and model that liberals want is so flawed.
 
Because liberalism is all about intent, intent to better serve people, intent that never leads to solving a problem but rather creating more and bigger problems along with more people dependent.

I'm not talking about liberalism or intent. I'm talking about what's actually happening (friendly reminder: this is costing less than promised):

U.S. hospitals make fewer serious errors; 50,000 lives saved
About 50,000 people are alive today because U.S. hospitals committed 17 percent fewer medical errors in 2013 than in 2010, government health officials said on Tuesday.

The lower rate of fatalities from poor care and mistakes was one of several "historic improvements" in hospital quality and safety measured by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. They included a 9 percent decline in the rate of hospital-acquired conditions such as infections, bedsores and pneumonia from 2012 to 2013.

More than 1,200 hospitals named Joint Commission 'Top Performers'
The number of hospitals that made the Joint Commission's “Top Performer” list increased again this year, even with the addition of new measures. A total of 1,224 U.S. hospitals made the annual list, which recognizes accredited facilities for outcomes on key quality measures reported the previous year.

Medicare ACO quality, savings improve in second year
Medicare's Accountable Care Organizations (ACOs) improved in both quality and savings in their second year, according to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. Medicare ACOs improved substantially in nearly every quality and patient experience measure, according to CMS. Moreover, ACOs in the Pioneer model and the Medicare Shared Savings Program (MSSP) saved a total of almost $400 million.

More hospitals will get value-based purchasing bonuses than penalties in 2015
CMS on Thursday announced that more hospitals will get bonuses than penalties under the Value-Based Purchasing (VBP) program in fiscal year (FY) 2015.

FY 2015 is the third year of the VBP program, which affects Medicare inpatient reimbursements based on hospitals' performance on quality and patient experience measures.

Readmission rate continues to drop for Medicare beneficiaries
The all-cause 30-day readmission rate for Medicare beneficiaries continued its downward trend, dropping to 17.5% through the end of 2013, according to an HHS report released Wednesday. That's down from the most recent numbers, published in December on the CMS' blog, showing a readmission rate hovering just under 18% during the first eight months of 2013. The Medicare all-cause readmission rates had held stubbornly around the 19% mark from 2007 to 2011, before dipping to 18.5% in 2012.

Practices Increasing PCMH Capacities for Chronic Patients
Medical practices have significantly increased the implementation of patient-centered medical home (PCMH) practices over time to try and provide better care for patients with chronic illnesses, according to an article published online January 5 in Health Affairs. . .

Although some incentives existed during the earlier surveys for practices to expand services for chronic care, incentives provided through the Affordable Care Act ... apply to the latest survey.

The survey contained questions on care coordination or integration, quality and safety of care, and enhanced access to care.

Trends in Hospital-based Population Health Infrastructure
Most notably, the Affordable Care Act implicitly and explicitly promotes a population health management approach to care delivery. Not only does this legislation expand health insurance to a majority of the United States population, it compels hospitals to address the socioeconomic, behavioral and environmental factors that affect people before hospital admission and after discharge. The ACA is accelerating the shift of reimbursement models from fee-for-service to value-based, a structure that promotes better health outcomes, improved quality of care, illness prevention and coordination across the continuum of care. Care systems are now being held accountable for the health of their patient population and are responsible for implementing health improvement strategies to address community health needs.
 

Wow, and all this because of ACA, a program passed in 2010 and not fully implemented yet? Because you believe we need this new entitlement program it therefore is necessary and we couldn't have reformed healthcare without it? So if you are wrong about costs and benefits just like with SS and Medicare what then? Shouldn't we solve the SS and Medicare problem first before implementing another entitlement program?
 
Wow, and all this because of ACA, a program passed in 2010 and not fully implemented yet?

Yes, it is. Those pieces of the ACA launched shortly after the law passed in 2010. They are fully implemented; 4-5 years into implementation in most cases.

Others have pointed this out but this fact really needs to sink in: your ignorance of this law is staggering.
 
What really bothers me is how little you know about GDP and the components of GDP in this country vs. the European economy. Please figure it out and then you will see why the European economy and model that liberals want is so flawed.

Conservative, these posts you make that basically boil down to "figure out what I know" are impossible. Generally speaking, it turns out that what you think you know is actually all wrong, so there isn't really any way for another person to guess what you're thinking. If you want to have a discussion, you need to lay out what you think is going on so that we can help you.
 
Oh, now I get it.

a memeist, hyperbole out of the white house basement.

Please enjoy your trolling and disinformation...we've had seven years of it and it's really ****ing boring.

I hate liars and Obama is one making every one of his followers liars as well.

"You can keep your plan..." yeah that proves "liberal" is truth!

Oh look! Hannity phrase #17, #33 and #109.
 
Yes, it is. Those pieces of the ACA launched shortly after the law passed in 2010. They are fully implemented; 4-5 years into implementation in most cases.

Others have pointed this out but this fact really needs to sink in: your ignorance of this law is staggering.

What exactly was implemented right after it passed? Taxes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look nothing is going to change your mind, if you are right years from now you can say "see, I told you so" but if I am right it will be too late as the debt will have already been accumulated and the healthcare system will have failed thus forcing a single payer system which does nothing but keep bureaucrats employed. I would rather be safe than sorry and let history be my guide.
 
Conservative, these posts you make that basically boil down to "figure out what I know" are impossible. Generally speaking, it turns out that what you think you know is actually all wrong, so there isn't really any way for another person to guess what you're thinking. If you want to have a discussion, you need to lay out what you think is going on so that we can help you.

Yes, got it, history is wrong, the federal govt has efficiently and effectively social programs that have lowered costs and actually solved problems thus no longer exist. What is going on is another federally implemented social program that will cost more than intended and do less than intended but will create dependence. History is your guide, learn from it or repeat it. What is going on is a massive central govt. program to solve a perceived problem when a smaller state initiated program would be better and less costly on the whole.
 
Look nothing is going to change your mind, if you are right years from now

I'm right already. What's confusing you here?

You say, based on nothing, it'll cost more than promised. I can point to it coming in hundreds of billions dollars below what was promised, not to mention generating hundreds of billions more in savings than anticipated.

You say, based on nothing, it does nothing to improve quality. I can point to numerous leaps in quality it's achieved already.

You're waving your hands and reiterating your bump sticker slogans. I'm pointing to actual results already being achieved. All you talk about is intent, I'm talking about results.
 
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