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Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?

  • Total voters
    70
US Conservative said:
Even if you think its the "wrong" sort of history-being a civil war it impacted everyone and it still does to this day. That flag represents AMERICAN history, not just the confederacies history.

For 150 years Americans could deal with this, suddenly now its a problem? Or could it just be a silly feel good response to the Charleston shooting?
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The idea that the confederate flag is a problem "suddenly now" is ... well, wrong. There was a statewide referendum on it in South Carolina in 1994, and there have been similar controversies in other states.
 
American said:
It's up to the people of each state to determine what their flag looks like.
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True. The people of South Carolina have deemed their flag should look like this

South-Carolina-Flag.gif

...as to the matter of the Confederate Battle Flag flying over the war memorial there, that is also being handled at the state level.

That does not remove, however, our right as people to suggest to the citizens of South Carolina, what they should do in the circumstance. The state has the ultimate to chose; but we retain the right to critique.
 
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JasperL said:
I see the point, but there have been a number of conversations going on around this shooting and this is just one of them. Lots of us see a bigger problem and have been discussing it, and having fundamental disagreements about THAT as well.

The only reason I participated is I think the history of that flag is pretty clear, it rose in prominence at a time when the states were fighting FOR Jim Crow, and no state should be blessing that symbol in 2015 as anything but an historical relic, and there are better options than THAT flag at that prominent location for that purpose. So I see it as entirely appropriate for it to be taken away. Not because it will accomplish some great goal, but because it just IS offensive to some large majority of the state's population and especially the black population who were on the receiving end of racists flying THAT FLAG while attempting to preserve state sponsored white supremacy. The flag is, IMO, an insult to blacks. And that is fine in a museum, along with whips and chains or "Whites Only" signs, etc.
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Well, that's the thing with symbols. They mean different things to different people. No self respecting Southerner is advocating for slavery. No self respecting Southerner is opting for Jim Crow's return. Just like no self respecting Southerner is gonna let no god damn yankee bastard tell'em how they're gonna handle their own affairs.

Side note: I was just in Memphis and Mississippi this past March. Wonderful time. Black folks and white folks got along just fine. The friendliness to all toward all was amazing. Matter of fact, the only noticeable hostility I encountered was toward myself and wife from white people. The Ranger managing Shiloh NMBP became stone faced but polite when I asked him a question and he heard my accent and another from a waitress at a local restaurant, switched from friendly to cordial when realizing she was serving a couple Yankees...

The thing I'm saying is that it is important to not push your narrative on others and call it right as they might see things in a completely different light. That's the kinda thinking that caused the Civil War in the first place.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
So with the removal of the Confederate flag from US state poles...is this a sign of movements towards better race relations?
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I thought you said all was better now.
 
JANFU said:
Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds | MSNBC

Agree with the Governor
Disagree with the Governor
Not sure
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You didn't include a "no opinion" choice, so I didn't respond to your poll.

The reason I have no opinion is that I'm not a resident of SC. Whether the flag should come down or not is not my call.

Haley is a resident of SC, so she has a right to express her opinion...just like any other resident.

btw, from what I understand, the flag won't come down just because the Governor says so. The State Legislature has a say in the matter. Anyone who is a resident of SC...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

If I'm right, the I suggest the rest of you don't get bent out of shape if the flag is still there tomorrow. Sometimes the wheels of government...even at the State level...move slowly.
 
Roof has accomplished his mission.
As we see on this thread and in most threads on this board.
To further divide America on racial relations--with other offshoots to the Confederate flag, guns and what have you .

OrphanSlug said:
Get it yet?
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US Conservative said:
Photos are indeed powerful. But you left some interesting ones out...
http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Byron-Thomas.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uYhwjSHoQ3k/Sqk6UBU1q_I/AAAAAAAAB2c/SoAgH0G--_8/s400/black_confederates.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/h_k_edgerton_5.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000955160/battle_flag_xlarge.jpeg[IMG]http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaking-news-mainstream-media/breaking-news-mainstream-media/breaking-news-mainstream-media/

See next post...[/QUOTE]

Congratulations, you've found 3 dumb ass black people who don't realize that black confederate were either removed from their posts by the confederacy or actually slaves like those of Nathan Bedford Forest.

[QUOTE="US Conservative, post: 1064744057, member: 22622"][IMG]http://www.texasconfederateveterans.com/BlackConfederates.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://i1.wp.com/thisiswarblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/xreu5qqt94xzwqc.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/sawaad/black4.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O_wKzH_9tfI/Te3I1uNvHxI/AAAAAAAASqU/ZVA-r0uvSjs/s1600/Civil+War+black-soldiers.jpg[IMG]

So are these men, across 150 years just pro-slavery racists?

Or could it be that you are missing something? Like why they do what they do?[/QUOTE]

Please, please read up on your history:

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Louisiana_Native_Guard_%28CSA%29[/url]

[QUOTE]The Native Guards were volunteers, and as such supplied their own arms and uniforms. These were displayed in a grand review of troops in New Orleans on November 23, 1861, and again on January 8, 1862.[7] They offered their services to escort Union prisoners (captured at the First Battle of Bull Run) through New Orleans. [B]Confederate General David Twiggs declined the offer, but thanked them for the "promptness with which they answered the call."[8] The Louisiana State Legislature passed a law in January 1862 that reorganized the militia into only “...free white males capable of bearing arms… ”.[9][/B][/QUOTE]

[url=http://www.historynet.com/americas-civil-war-louisiana-native-guards.htm]America’s Civil War: Louisiana Native Guards[/url]

[QUOTE]Praise was one thing; acceptance was quite another. Confederate leaders who had initially welcomed the prospect of black troops changed their stance in light of the growing influence of the abolitionists over the Federal government. [COLOR="#FF0000"][B]In defending the propriety of slavery, Southern officials pointed to their long-standing argument that blacks were inferior to whites. Enrolling black troops on the same level as whites would tend to refute that argument to all the world,[/B][/COLOR] and the Confederacy opted to deny the Louisiana Native Guards the privilege of fighting for their new country.[/QUOTE]

In short, they joined out of some weird sense of patriotism, then got told to **** off because the entire point of the Confederacy was enforcing the supremacy of whites OVER blacks. Just stop, you're about to look extremely stupid if you keep going down this absurdly revisionist road. The confederacy sought to enforce supremacy of whites over blacks. It's no surprise that 100 years later, the South was still resisting any sort of integration.
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ChezC3 said:
Well, that's the thing with symbols. They mean different things to different people. No self respecting Southerner is advocating for slavery. No self respecting Southerner is opting for Jim Crow's return. Just like no self respecting Southerner is gonna let no god damn yankee bastard tell'em how they're gonna handle their own affairs.
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OK, I get that. But if that symbol just IS offensive to a large share of the population, a POLITE Southerner has a choice, don't they? They can acknowledge that the flag that was flown in defiance of equal rights for blacks as recently as the 1960s, is a common symbol for modern day racists, and is therefore REASONABLY and RATIONALLY offensive to blacks, and as polite Southerners acknowledge that and remove the flag as an act of common courtesy and respect for others.

Or they can say, "to hell with anyone who's offended, I'll fly the GD flag if I want!" To me the former is a better reflection of Southern values than the latter

Side note: I was just in Memphis and Mississippi this past March. Wonderful time. Black folks and white folks got along just fine. The friendliness to all toward all was amazing. Matter of fact, the only noticeable hostility I encountered was toward myself and wife from white people. The Ranger managing Shiloh NMBP became stone faced but polite when I asked him a question and he heard my accent and another from a waitress at a local restaurant, switched from friendly to cordial when realizing she was serving a couple Yankees...

The thing I'm saying is that it is important to not push your narrative on others and call it right as they might see things in a completely different light. That's the kinda thinking that caused the Civil War in the first place.
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OK, you almost had me, but the kind of thinking that caused the Civil War in the first place was a deeply held belief in white supremacy, that blacks were inherently inferior and therefore properly subservient to and owned by whites. There is no alternative way to see slavery. Sometimes there is a clear right and wrong. Not often, but there is no benign prism with which to view slavery, or the following century of Jim Crow which was based on the same belief in inherent white supremacy, enforced by the state.
 
JasperL said:
But tariffs at the time of secession were at relatively LOW levels. I edited my original post - read that and the attached article and we can discuss further if you want.
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Wasn't another whether slavery would extend to the new territories/States?
 
Hatuey said:
Congratulations, you've found 3 dumb ass black people.



Please, please read up on your history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Louisiana_Native_Guard_(CSA)



America’s Civil War: Louisiana Native Guards



In short, they joined out of some weird sense of patriotism, then got told to **** off because the entire point of the Confederacy was enforcing the supremacy of whites OVER blacks. Just stop.
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I didn't realize you were the arbiter of black people, congrats.

The point wasn't that if they were accepted into combat by the south, its that they were black men willing to risk their lives for the confederacy.

The first pic I posted is of a young black man who went to court and won for the right to display the confederate flag in his dorm.

Unfortunately you dont get to decide if what these men fought for is legitimate. Said another way you can go pound sand. :2wave:
 
US Conservative said:
It was. And the 3/5th clause infuriated the south as well. But the north had the majority vote in congress and a greater population.
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And the South was much richer than the North at that time, yes?
 
US Conservative said:
I didn't realize you were the arbiter of black people, congrats.
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Nope, but I can tell a dumbass when I see one. :) There are 3 dumbasses in your pictures. Out of 30 million black people in this country, you found 3 dumb enough to think the confederacy wouldn't have put their asses in chains if it had won. As I said, congratulations.

The point wasn't that if they were accepted into combat by the south, its that they were black men willing to risk their lives for the confederacy.
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I know what your point was. Your point was to try and play some gotcha game by pointing at 3 black people who don't know what they're doing, and black "confederates" - who you didn't know were told to **** off because they'd be completely undermining the point of the confederacy. We get it. Your understanding of history is myopic at best, selective at worst.
 
ChezC3 said:
This whole thing is ridiculous. This piece of polyester has done no more to cause this atrocity than the toilet paper in my bathroom.

Does anyone call for Georgia to change their flag? To pull it down? Which minus the seal is the exact damn flag that was the first national flag of the Confederacy... What about Mississippi? Arkansas? Florida? Alabama?

Hell, Six Flags is just gonna have to make due with 5 since one of them 6 was representative of the Confederacy, gots to go!!! :roll:

The flag's removal is going to do nothing but incite racial animosity. One more thing taken away. That's what this will represent.

Guarantee it.

But in a superficial society which is more concerned with symbolism rather than substance, what should I expect?
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True - it did not cause the mass murders.
True- many racist orgs/groups etc use this very "piece of polyester" as their flag.
True- It represents a disgusting part of US history - Slavery.
 
It should not be flown on state grounds/public grounds. However if an individual wants to fly it at their private residence of at some sort of protest, etc they should have that right and do have that right.
 
JANFU said:
And the South was much richer than the North at that time, yes?
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Not sure about that. Certainly the slaveholder class was amongst the wealthiest on earth at the time, but it was a minority (4-8%, IIRC), most southerners were poor. Infrastructure was less developed. The north certainly had its share of wealth from shipping and manufacturing/industry. IIRC by the end of the war NYC had a greater industrial capacity than the entire south.
 
JasperL said:
OK, I get that. But if that symbol just IS offensive to a large share of the population, a POLITE Southerner has a choice, don't they? They can acknowledge that the flag that was flown in defiance of equal rights for blacks as recently as the 1960s and is therefore REASONABLY and RATIONALLY offensive to blacks, and as polite Southerners acknowledge that and remove the flag as an act of common courtesy and respect for others.

Or they can say, "to hell with anyone who's offended, I'll fly the GD flag if I want!" To me the former is a better reflection of Southern values than the latter
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Well, they might, if they weren't feeling that they're the aggrieved party.


OK, you almost had me, but the kind of thinking that caused the Civil War in the first place was a deeply held belief in white supremacy, that blacks were inherently inferior and therefore properly subservient to and owned by whites. There is no alternative way to see slavery. Sometimes there is a clear right and wrong. Not often, but there is no benign prism with which to view slavery, or the following century of Jim Crow which was based on the same belief in inherent white supremacy, enforced by the state.
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What you're doing here is making the mistake that that wasn't the common belief (inferiority, not slavery) held by almost ALL (including Lincoln himself) as it regards black people. You're only putting that line of thought on the Southerners.

This goes past the issue at hand. The issue of slavery actually was settled, or if the South hadn't seceded would have been settled with the Corwin Amendment which Lincoln signed and is still awaiting ratification. Also what people don't seem to realize was that Jim Crow laws were a response to Reconstruction and its excesses which added insult to injury.

We look at these issues through today's eyes without seeing the other side at that time. People think its cut and dry, slavery is evil, it had always been evil. It might have been, but that doesn't mean that was the case, or the view for everyone. And when you tell someone that not only is the property you owned yesterday no longer yours but instead a fully recognized man who is gonna get a piece of your property for retribution and the Yankee gun is gonna back his play and place this uneducated individual who has decades of righteous rage in a position of local power and you can just sit there and take it or be dead, that there is gonna stick in your craw.
 
Hatuey said:
Nope, but I can tell a dumbass when I see one. :) There are 3 dumbasses in your pictures. Out of 30 million black people in this country, you found 3 dumb enough to think the confederacy wouldn't have put their asses in chains if it had won. As I said, congratulations.



I know what your point was. Your point was to try and play some gotcha game by pointing at 3 black people who don't know what they're doing, and black "confederates" - who you didn't know were told to **** off because they'd be completely undermining the point of the confederacy. We get it. Your understanding of history is myopic at best, selective at worst.
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I spent 30 seconds on google, Im sure there are more.

Again, I believe they were familiar with slavery, both back then and the people alive today. I don't think they support the flag because of slavery, I think they support it because of southern pride, and southern culture-which is still quite distinct.

But as an arbiter of black people, you get to blanket smear them without attempting to understand their motivations.
 
The same conservatives who want to spend trillions of $'s and thousands of American lives overseas to protect the American flag and American 'freedoms' want to honor another flag that represents another country and a hell of a lot less 'freedoms' at home?

?
 
ChezC3 said:
It might be hard, but take an educated guess...:roll:
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It's funny. If I had assumed and made the wrong assumption, you would have criticized me for making assumptions. Now that I ask you to clarify, you think I should have assumed. But, since you seem to trust my assumptions, I'm going to assume that you're argument is weak and stupid and you know it.
 
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