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Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag from Capitol grounds [W:154]

Should the flag be moved-removed from all State Buildings?


  • Total voters
    70
In the eyes of many Native Americans the US flag is such a symbol of racism, should we take it down? Symbols will always offend some-thats not what matters, what matters is that the people of that state want it up. If the states representatives decide to take it down Im fine with that too.

What Im not fine with is outsiders TELLING them what it means and what they need to do. I just posted several links to black southerners who wave that flag, and others who fought for it. Enough of this orwellian PC garbage-it means different things to different people and if some don't like it they can go pound sand.

At the end of the day, no one can force SC to do a damn thing. People are expressing their opinions on the subject, which is perfectly acceptable. If the flag comes down it will be as a result of a vote by the legislature and Gov. signing it. They're of course free to ignore the views of others - their call. And we're free to provide our own views. It's how it works. Not sure what the problem is.

You say it means different things to different people but there's a problem when the state flies a symbol that has been widely adopted by racists and has been THEIR symbol for a few decades now. Especially when SC first flew THAT flag in direct response to Federal efforts to end Jim Crow.

What you're suggesting is we ignore or rewrite the documented history of THAT FLAG. That's "Orwellian PC garbage" - rewriting history so that this flag has never represented anything but ice tea and mint julips and Southern Pride. That's false.
 
actually slavery was one of 2 direct causes,the other tarrifs ,both economic reasons.the states rights issues came about as the southern states rejected tariffs and were reliant on slavery economically,and paid around 90% of all us taxes back then,through tariffs.the tariffs also crippled trade between the south and its trading partners,and severely crippled its economy.

now add in slavery,taking that away from the southernors would have made the south then like detroit now.add in the fact none of these things harmed the north in any way but the north recieved all the benefits,while the south paid all the cost.

and even something few people think of,the north wanted cotton prices in the south to rise,while putting tariffs on it to keep countries like britain from getting cheap cotton,so northern textile mills could corner the market on clothing,instead o the south selling cheap cotton to countries like england who were direct competitors to northern textile factories.

The average southerner was a poor white man who owned no slaves. While govt's certainly went to war over economic issues, I have read many journals from the people who actually fought, and why they fought.

I get the impression (though Im not southern) that much of the pride comes from this. To this day I still hear southerners proudly mention individual family members that fought in the war.
 
Come on, tariffs had been much higher than when the Civil War was declared. There was constant bickering, but there is no way anyone can claim tariffs were a major cause of the war. Read the declarations - they tell you the reason. Slavery.

yes tariffs were a major reason.

you had slave labor and low import and export prices driving the southern economy.there were two pillars of their economic force.they had already used excessive tariffs that almost entirely affected the south and crippled its economy.now add in slavery,the other economic pillar,like i said slavery issue was the final straw with them,the north did not rely on slavery,they used child labor instead because they did not want uneducated black men operating high dollar machinery.the north did very little trade outside the us,while the south was entirely dependant on it,and dependant on low prices of cotton due to bulk production.


fyi south carolina did threaten to secceede during the nullification crisis almost 2 decades before the civil war due to tariffs,hence where the states rights issues came to play,with states believing they should be able to nullify unfair tariffs that blatantly hit the south and favored the north.
 
I was born and raised in the South. I love the South, Southern Culture, and Southern Food. I think we have the best accents, best food, best authors and some of the prettiest countryside. My family has lived in the South for hundreds of years and I have ancestors that fought for the Confederacy, even one with a memorial for him in Tennessee.

That all said. The South seceded from the Union to preserve the institution of Slavery. Ultimately, the South and everyone that fought for the Confederacy, fought to preserve one of the most evil institutions man has ever conceived of. The fact we would want to fly the battle flag of the Confederacy anywhere is shameful. In fact, I don't even think there should be memorials to anyone that fought for the Confederacy. How is it any different than fighting for Nazi Germany or fighting for Pol Pot? Did every Nazi soldier fight for the cause of the genocide of Jews? No they didn't, but regardless they fought for an evil cause and thus we don't memorialize them or their flags. Similarly, ever Confederate soldier did not specifically fight for slavery, but they fought for an evil cause just the same and we ought not memorialize them or their flags.

Ask yourself this. If a state fought the Union because that state wanted to preserve legalized child molestation would you be in favor of that state flying its flag that represented that as a memorial? So why is this any different? It isn't as morally, slavery is every bit as evil as rape, child molestation, and genocide.
 
Yes!

"We're all individuals - we're all different"

Or, as I'm fond of saying: THINK!

(and let's not let the politicians & their political parties define us OR our fellow Americans)
 
Remove it, that time and that flag should have been gone a long ways back.



Its going to be a done deal.....S Carolina will give it up. Take down the Flag. Next will be any monuments dedicated to the Confederates, Right?


Senators Tim Scott, Lindsey Graham and RNC Chairman Reince Preibus have also called for its removal.....snip~
 
yes tariffs were a major reason.

you had slave labor and low import and export prices driving the southern economy.there were two pillars of their economic force.they had already used excessive tariffs that almost entirely affected the south and crippled its economy.now add in slavery,the other economic pillar,like i said slavery issue was the final straw with them,the north did not rely on slavery,they used child labor instead because they did not want uneducated black men operating high dollar machinery.the north did very little trade outside the us,while the south was entirely dependant on it,and dependant on low prices of cotton due to bulk production.


fyi south carolina did threaten to secceede during the nullification crisis almost 2 decades before the civil war due to tariffs,hence where the states rights issues came to play,with states believing they should be able to nullify unfair tariffs that blatantly hit the south and favored the north.

But tariffs at the time of secession were at relatively LOW levels. I edited my original post - read that and the attached article and we can discuss further if you want.
 
The average southerner was a poor white man who owned no slaves. While govt's certainly went to war over economic issues, I have read many journals from the people who actually fought, and why they fought.

I get the impression (though Im not southern) that much of the pride comes from this. To this day I still hear southerners proudly mention individual family members that fought in the war.

what people fought for and what govts started the war for are 2 seperate things. i already know many southernors had different reasons.

the govts of the south saw it as economic.the slaves grew picked and seperated cotton in bulk,while many non slaves were employed in shipping of products inspecting it etc,or through indirect means of service jobs.from there it was traded to other us states or across the see,europe was a major buyer,most notably england.
 
The "Stars & Bars" (Confederate) flag in question is not the South Carolina state flag.

The "Stars & Bars" do not appear, in any way, on the SC State flag.

The flag that is under debate here is a "Confederate" flag that hangs in front of the SC state building along with the State flag.

The "Confederate Flag" is not the "Stars & Bars" flag

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America


"the Confederate Flag" and has become a widely recognized symbol of the American south.[31] It is also known as the rebel flag, Dixie flag, and Southern cross and is often incorrectly referred to as the "Stars and Bars" (the actual "Stars and Bars" is the first national flag, which used an entirely different design).


The correct "Stars & Bars" flag is the first national flag of the Confederate States of America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags...The_Stars_and_Bars.22_.281861.E2.80.931863.29

:)
 
But tariffs at the time of secession were at relatively LOW levels. I edited my original post - read that and the attached article and we can discuss further if you want.

well i guess relatively low compared to the nullification crisis,when the govt rolled back tariffs to prevent a civil war.fyi up to the civil war,the south paid almost all taxes,as most of its income was from tariffs,which almost exclusevly affected the south,as they relied on import export trade for their economy.

add to that most of the money collected from tariffs went to expanding northern industry.i would be on par today if lets say california decides on a new tax,the tax only affects socal,all the money goes to norcal infrastructure,leaving the cities own tax income to do everything.if something like that occured today,people would be pissed off too like they were then.
 
What's really sad about all this is that the shooting in SC had nothing to do with the confederate flag. But people with agenda's made it about that in order to try and further their agenda. Instead of...you know...actually addressing the actual real ****ing problem.
 
What's really sad about all this is that the shooting in SC had nothing to do with the confederate flag. But people with agenda's made it about that in order to try and further their agenda. Instead of...you know...actually addressing the actual real ****ing problem.

Exactly, this is a feel-good band aid that does nothing. The epitome of symbolism over substance.
 
Its going to be a done deal.....S Carolina will give it up. Take down the Flag. Next will be any monuments dedicated to the Confederates, Right?

Senators Tim Scott, Lindsey Graham and RNC Chairman Reince Preibus have also called for its removal.....snip~

Unsure on the Monuments, but I can see the argument to remove the Confederate Flag flying over those as well. My core issue is this, there is only so much you can say to twist up the intentions of the North and South fighting it out so long ago. The South is not going to rise again, and the Confederate Flag stands for an economic and social ideology that involved slavery for wealthy white plantation owners. We can pretend all we want that there was some romantic social history to preserve, but in the end it all came down to a fight between the agricultural wealth of the south vs. the industrial wealth of the north and they used a divided nation to fight it out. We are talking about preserving a symbol of the wrong side of history, one that I continually see people try to go back and rewrite.
 
This whole thing is ridiculous. This piece of polyester has done no more to cause this atrocity than the toilet paper in my bathroom.

Does anyone call for Georgia to change their flag? To pull it down? Which minus the seal is the exact damn flag that was the first national flag of the Confederacy... What about Mississippi? Arkansas? Florida? Alabama?

Hell, Six Flags is just gonna have to make due with 5 since one of them 6 was representative of the Confederacy, gots to go!!! :roll:

The flag's removal is going to do nothing but incite racial animosity. One more thing taken away. That's what this will represent.

Guarantee it.

But in a superficial society which is more concerned with symbolism rather than substance, what should I expect?
 
I was born and raised in the South. I love the South, Southern Culture, and Southern Food. I think we have the best accents, best food, best authors and some of the prettiest countryside.
Roads!

You forgot ROADS!

To a Midwestern flat-lander, owner of a (not driven enough) sportscar - I love the Blue Ridge mountain roads!

Almost, enough to move for.

Almost ...
 
This whole thing is ridiculous. This piece of polyester has done no more to cause this atrocity than the toilet paper in my bathroom.

Does anyone call for Georgia to change their flag? To pull it down? Which minus the seal is the exact damn flag that was the first national flag of the Confederacy... What about Mississippi? Arkansas? Florida? Alabama?

Hell, Six Flags is just gonna have to make due with 5 since one of them 6 was representative of the Confederacy, gots to go!!! :roll:

The flag's removal is going to do nothing but incite racial animosity. One more thing taken away. That's what this will represent.

Guarantee it.

But in a superficial society which is more concerned with symbolism rather than substance, what should I expect?

Actually, Georgia did have the Confederate Flag on the State Flag. It did not show up like that until 1956, which should tell you something. By 2003 it was gone.
 
Actually, Georgia did have the Confederate Flag on the State Flag. It did not show up like that until 1956, which should tell you something. By 2003 it was gone.

Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_(1861-1863).svg.jpg640px-flag_of_georgia_(u.s._state).svg.png.jpg

The first the Confederate Stars and Bars

The second the current State flag of Georgia
 
This whole thing is ridiculous. This piece of polyester has done no more to cause this atrocity than the toilet paper in my bathroom.

Does anyone call for Georgia to change their flag? To pull it down? Which minus the seal is the exact damn flag that was the first national flag of the Confederacy... What about Mississippi? Arkansas? Florida? Alabama?

Hell, Six Flags is just gonna have to make due with 5 since one of them 6 was representative of the Confederacy, gots to go!!! :roll:

The flag's removal is going to do nothing but incite racial animosity. One more thing taken away. That's what this will represent.

Guarantee it.

But in a superficial society which is more concerned with symbolism rather than substance, what should I expect?

I see the point, but there have been a number of conversations going on around this shooting and this is just one of them. Lots of us see a bigger problem and have been discussing it, and having fundamental disagreements about THAT as well.

The only reason I participated is I think the history of that flag is pretty clear, it rose in prominence at a time when the states were fighting FOR Jim Crow, and no state should be blessing that symbol in 2015 as anything but an historical relic, and there are better options than THAT flag at that prominent location for that purpose. So I see it as entirely appropriate for it to be taken away. Not because it will accomplish some great goal, but because it just IS offensive to some large majority of the state's population and especially the black population who were on the receiving end of racists flying THAT FLAG while attempting to preserve state sponsored white supremacy. The flag is, IMO, an insult to blacks. And that is fine in a museum, along with whips and chains or "Whites Only" signs, etc.
 
Unsure on the Monuments, but I can see the argument to remove the Confederate Flag flying over those as well. My core issue is this, there is only so much you can say to twist up the intentions of the North and South fighting it out so long ago. The South is not going to rise again, and the Confederate Flag stands for an economic and social ideology that involved slavery for wealthy white plantation owners. We can pretend all we want that there was some romantic social history to preserve, but in the end it all came down to a fight between the agricultural wealth of the south vs. the industrial wealth of the north and they used a divided nation to fight it out. We are talking about preserving a symbol of the wrong side of history, one that I continually see people try to go back and rewrite.
So with the removal of the Confederate flag from US state poles...is this a sign of movements towards better race relations?
 
Unsure on the Monuments, but I can see the argument to remove the Confederate Flag flying over those as well. My core issue is this, there is only so much you can say to twist up the intentions of the North and South fighting it out so long ago. The South is not going to rise again, and the Confederate Flag stands for an economic and social ideology that involved slavery for wealthy white plantation owners. We can pretend all we want that there was some romantic social history to preserve, but in the end it all came down to a fight between the agricultural wealth of the south vs. the industrial wealth of the north and they used a divided nation to fight it out. We are talking about preserving a symbol of the wrong side of history, one that I continually see people try to go back and rewrite.

Even if you think its the "wrong" sort of history-being a civil war it impacted everyone and it still does to this day. That flag represents AMERICAN history, not just the confederacies history.

For 150 years Americans could deal with this, suddenly now its a problem? Or could it just be a silly feel good response to the Charleston shooting?
 
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