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NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

I find it worth noting that several posters in various threads who identify themselves as on the right side of the political continuum have stated they favor increased mental health initiatives. And that is good. But let us not forget the way many states slashed mental health spending in the 90's.

Here in Michigan we closed 3 out of every 4 mental health hospitals and they all were closed under a Republican Governor . here is the evidence

Jeff Gerritt: Deinstitutionalizing Michigan's mentally ill has been an underfunded disaster | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

How many of these recent shooters were even alive in the 80's? You are complaining about water over the dam. How about we discuss what to do now?
And while I am all for mental health screenings-they are easy to get around-it boils down to asking people if they plan to (or have) harmed themselves or others. Im constantly amazed at how many do, and tell me so-but I also know there are plenty who know how to get past these screening evals.

The bottom line is you can't know whats in another persons head.
 
I don't think so. Go back and research it. Even the Old West had rules in place at the time that required people to hand over their guns in certain situations, i.e., when entering a bar. Why did they do it? To reduce the level of gun violence and, thus, prevent people who would use guns irresponsibly from acting irresponsibly.

And thats why its known as the sleepy, peaceful west-and not the wild west. Because of all the peace. :lol:
 
shoulda coulda woulda ..... right.

How does being against open carry deprive anyone of the right to be armed and protect themselves?



If anyone in the thread was talking about OPEN carry, it's news to me.
 
Likely because they tried to skirt the law/bar policy and got themselves killed in the process. But without stats to back that up, I'll just chalk this one up to "bad people doing bad things and getting their just desserts as a consequence of their poor choice".

Its almost like criminals and the insane dont follow laws.
 
Im talking about concealed carry, the type that most people adhere to. Its disadvantageous for numerous reasons to advertise that you are armed.

And I have stated that I have no problem with a person getting a CCW and doing so.
 
How many of these recent shooters were even alive in the 80's? You are complaining about water over the dam. How about we discuss what to do now?
And while I am all for mental health screenings-they are easy to get around-it boils down to asking people if they plan to (or have) harmed themselves or others. Im constantly amazed at how many do, and tell me so-but I also know there are plenty who know how to get past these screening evals.

The bottom line is you can't know whats in another persons head.

As I said - I welcome the support for increased mental health initiatives. I am simply old enough to remember who gutted the mental health system in the first place.
 
If anyone in the thread was talking about OPEN carry, it's news to me.

My objection is to open carry.

And there have been so many threads on this subject over the last couple of days that they are all running together in my mind. When you hit 65 that sort of thing happens to you.
 
You're jumping into the middle of a longer discussion. Obviously in context the "miscomparing" was in response to Turtle, who compared having a fire extinguisher versus a gun in a dang church. It's apples and dump trucks comparison - they are NOTHING alike. Not in the risk of the event they protect against or the risk of the protection itself.

And I don't really care all that much about your gun carrying history in this context. Obviously if you've been doing it for 30 years, you're probably well trained, competent, responsible, etc. Not everyone is like you. As I've said, I've seen MANY accidental discharges, and it's just luck the only injury was a guy who blew off the back of his own ankle. I accept those risks hunting or shooting targets because loaded guns and a mix of expertise of those handling them are integral to the activities.

Any idiot with that can read at the first grade level can pass the exam to carry, and for all I know he's carried a gun for a week. If you allow guns into a church, that means you AND those idiots with a week of experience who might show up still drunk from the night before, or are whack jobs, etc. How am I supposed to tell him from you? If I know you, and I'm sitting next to you in church or anywhere else there's probably little worry. But that tells me nothing about some stranger who comes in who I've never met. There's no good reason to trust that a random stranger knows what he's doing, or that his wife's gun in her purse can't be pulled out by her kids while she's taking communion.

The point is there is no reason for someone worshipping to spend one SECOND worrying about that to prevent something about 15 times less likely than getting struck by lightning, 0.0000001% or so. If I thought I needed protection every day from events of that likelihood, I'd wear a helmet into the dang shower, and nearly all the rest of the time not sitting at my desk. Instead I just wear one while biking on the road....



For some people, the idea of being suddenly subject to violence is a matter of theory and math.


To others, it is simply a reality they've experienced and know about first hand. Once you realize it can happen anytime, anywhere, and is no respecter of persons or places, all those theoretical assumptions and stats become less important than what you KNOW can and does happen.


For me it isn't about theory or odds. I've seen the elephant and while he may be rare, when he does show up he's an SOB.
 
Im talking about concealed carry, the type that most people adhere to. Its disadvantageous for numerous reasons to advertise that you are armed.

Meh I OC and CC with no problems. Anyway both should be legal in the whole USA.
 
My objection is to open carry.

And there have been so many threads on this subject over the last couple of days that they are all running together in my mind. When you hit 65 that sort of thing happens to you.


Yeah, I'm not there yet but I get what you mean. :)
 
Yeah, I'm not there yet but I get what you mean. :)

recently I was at lunch with some old teaching buddies and one who has a couple of years on me said something that was a laugh riot but strangely wise at the same time.

I complained that i hate it when it climb the stairs and get up there and then forget why I did it in the first place and find myself looking around to get my memory jostled... car keys..... wallet ..... pants ????? He said just wait as it gets worse. I asked what he meant and he said wait till you find yourself in the bathroom and you can't remember why you went in there and you can't figure that one out.

Hopefully that is a decade or more off.... for all of us.
 
Yup, so much mythology (mostly from hollywood) surrounding the times. But they were still dangerous and most people followed the law, and yet were armed.



I have in my collection a real account, published at the time about the gunfight at the OK corral.

It lasted less than 90 seconds, no one died.
 
I have in my collection a real account, published at the time about the gunfight at the OK corral.

It lasted less than 90 seconds, no one died.

I read up quite a bit on that, and the history of the town and its inhabitants. One of these days Im taking a road trip out there. Its not too far away.
 
For some people, the idea of being suddenly subject to violence is a matter of theory and math.


To others, it is simply a reality they've experienced and know about first hand. Once you realize it can happen anytime, anywhere, and is no respecter of persons or places, all those theoretical assumptions and stats become less important than what you KNOW can and does happen.


For me it isn't about theory or odds. I've seen the elephant and while he may be rare, when he does show up he's an SOB.



That is precisely why I am against citizen protection. Most people have no idea of what happens to the human body, all on its own, when real violence stairs them in the eye. I was attacked on my front lawn a few years ago by a dolt bicyclist with a stupid Swiss Army knife. The other stupid in the equation, me, thought "who the **** ever got hurt with one of those, you can't even cut yourself" and stood my ground. I happened to have the water hose in my hand and squirted in his eyes as he ran at me. God or good fortune he retreated and sped off on his little bike.

I was in no shape to stand up. When the smoke cleared I was shaking so bad they called an ambulance. That, is very normal they told me, and actually pretty tame for one in his 60's.

And oh, you can die by being stabbed with those stupid little toys, the nice victim support cop told me.

Next time? I run.
 
What exactly is wrong with having a gun just to have it? You know, people buy all sorts of things just to have them and I don't see any one of you giving them grief for it.

Have it where? Open ended question.
Locked and secured?
Used for shooting coyotes and such on your ranch?

But down south it has gone to open carny, guns in churches, I think you have a gun problem.

I am going when time permits for my PAL, in Canada need one to purchase a gun or ammo.
 
Ooooh my, I missed this one. What an ugly thing to say.


My dear sainted father, WW2 veteran, former Deacon and Church Treasurer, respected member of his community and father of four children none of whom have ever spent a night in jail, was an NRA member and carried a 38 snubnose to church with the approval of the pastor and Deacon board for many years.

I am also an NRA member and I assure you I have no truck with skinheads or anti-government militia types.

When we paint with an ugly broad brush, what we most often reveal is our own ignorance and bias you know.

My WWII Vet Father was a member of the NRA as well and ripped his card into pieces and sent it back with a letter. Your narrow mindedness is just as ignorant if you cannot see what they have become. They are keeping the masses riled up...and use every tragic incident as a stage to work up the paranoid with gun grabbing.
 
Are you seriously asking me to parse simple words? What's the part you don't understand in "My decision to own a gun affects only me and those who might find themselves at the wrong end of it"?


You question why of found the simple statement disturbing...anyone who talks about taking the life of another...well..could be taken as disturbing. Is this what you meant?
 
That is precisely why I am against citizen protection. Most people have no idea of what happens to the human body, all on its own, when real violence stairs them in the eye. I was attacked on my front lawn a few years ago by a dolt bicyclist with a stupid Swiss Army knife. The other stupid in the equation, me, thought "who the **** ever got hurt with one of those, you can't even cut yourself" and stood my ground. I happened to have the water hose in my hand and squirted in his eyes as he ran at me. God or good fortune he retreated and sped off on his little bike.

I was in no shape to stand up. When the smoke cleared I was shaking so bad they called an ambulance. That, is very normal they told me, and actually pretty tame for one in his 60's.

And oh, you can die by being stabbed with those stupid little toys, the nice victim support cop told me.

Next time? I run.

What happens under stress is precisely why a very simply firearm that requires no fine motor skills should be used.

With blades what most determines how dangerous it is is the blade length. But even a swiss army knife in the right place is deadly. Glad to see you made it through that experience ok.
 
My WWII Vet Father was a member of the NRA as well and ripped his card into pieces and sent it back with a letter. Your narrow mindedness is just as ignorant if you cannot see what they have become. They are keeping the masses riled up...and use every tragic incident as a stage to work up the paranoid with gun grabbing.

One of the first things Obama did after this shooting was complain about guns. Several powerful high ranking leftist congressional reps have said the same.
If they could ban guns they simply would.
As it stands-they dont have the political capital and even if they did-the fallout (as in the 94 Clinton ban) would be detrimental to those politicians.
 
The police and the armed guards were expecting an attack. How often does that happen?

Fortunately not very often. But I dont really need pools of blood or lack thereof to know my ideas are good ideas. Armed good people stop armed bad people, that is just common sense backed up with reality.

It was lucky that an Oklahoma Reserve Officer was on the scene and knew exactly what to do. The same happened at Trolley Square Mall in SLC where an off duty officer stopped a shooting spree as well. But that's just having the right person being in the right place at the right time.

So shouldnt we encourage and enable more "right people"? Instead of disarming every good person and stigmatizing guns like the anti-gunners are doing? They are creating victims when they should really be asking for help from the sheepdogs.

Columbine had armed guards present and they couldn't prevent a killing spree even after more cops showed up.

Columbine had an armed guard (not guards) and he was outside of the building as it happened....and good active shooter response didnt even exist back then. It used to be wait until SWAT showed up....today its get your rifle and get the **** in that building ASAP and that means go ALONE if you need to.

Even then...wouldnt it be advantageous if good people inside that school were armed and protected instead of disarmed and helpless?

The good guy was pretty shook up over it, too. But the shooter dropped most of his ammo and his gun jammed so it's debatable whether it was the good guys actions that caused the bad guy to run off and kill himself. But still, I'm glad he was there to take him out if he had to.

I think we all are. And I think we all wish more of these shootings ended up like that instead of ending up like that church, or Columbine, or Newtown. The difference is that a good guy was there with a gun and threw a wrench (if you will) into the sick plans of a sick man.


Gun control is like taking the boxing gloves away from someone who wants to punch you....now he is just using his fists. Its better to get your own gloves and fight back.
 
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