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NRA executive suggests slain Charleston pastor to blame for gun deaths

Occam's Razor said:
No, it's only the biggest factor when all else fails.

The victims, and this kid were failed by broken education, broken families, societal apathy, profit only based pharmaceuticals, desensitization to violence, media hyperbole and sensationalism that makes mundane events into vehicles of fear to advance ideas that can't otherwise succeed.

The biggest factor is that we are a fractured, dysfunctional, disenfranchised, population bled dry of wealth and opportunity.

Not everything has to have a profit motive.
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Jebus. We aren't talking about some grand abstraction here-we are talking about real life. You can blame this on society, and you will missing the point.
 
JasperL said:
There is no rational reason to arm yourself in church. The odds of it keeping you safe are for all practical purposes ZERO. You took thousands of times greater risk driving to the church. If you want to keep yourself safe that day, wear your seatbelt, drive the speed limit, don't run red lights or talk/text on your cell phone while driving. That will do FAR more than arming 55 million gatherings at churches per year.



We're talking about church.

I'm sure there are times and places where carrying a concealed handgun is a reasonably good idea. I've never encountered one in my life, but I live in a safe area and walk routinely late at night without worry. Not everyone is so lucky. I won't make broad statements on the subject.
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you are in no position to decree what is rational when it comes to guns because your positions are clearly irrational.

what makes a church different than a mall or a theater or a school? does the fact that a church just was shot up play any role in your silly argument

I live in one of the safest areas in Ohio and a few days ago, an armed individual broke into a nearby home, terrorized the occupants and robbed them

years ago I was in a very safe area-a college environment. The DA noted the two robbers figured no one would be packing which is why they traveled across town to pick this place to engage in criminal activity. and those two SOBs were just unlucky enough to try to mug the one guy on the street of college and graduate students, who had a CCW license and knew how to use it as well as looking like just another graduate student. I was the only attempted mugging in that neighborhood in a five year period. and from what my local cop friend from there tells me-after the DA pointed out that almost every adult in that area who wasn't a grad or college student had a permit to carry-there hasn't been another attempted mugging there since then-30 years later
 
Serenity said:
No it's common decency that should be applied to all victims and their families, no matter what side of the gun debate you sit on. Now you can call it whatever you like to defend an apologist for murder, I couldn't care less.
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So demonstrate your consistency by showing how outraged you were when Obama used this incident to further his anti-gun agenda.

Who do you feel is "defending an apologist for murder"?
 
TurtleDude said:
I couldn't care less. I find religion to be rather silly myself.
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You don't care but you're posting about it...?

and your fear of guns in the hands of good people versus the chances of being in a gun free zone when its attacked by some turd who doesn't care if there is a no gun policy is really pretty stupid IMHO.
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My fear doesn't have to be rational to affect what a gun toting person does to my experience in church. Since the odds of a mass murder are approximately 0.0000001%, a reasonable choice for the church is to concern themselves with a welcoming and comfortable experience for all of their congregants.

oh btw I am very well trained. I was trained well enough to carry handguns on planes or in federal courthouses. I also had perfect qualification scores on the USMS qualification course. on top of that I have held "Grandmaster" or Life Master qualifications in other high stress high speed shooting sports
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Great, and unless I know you very well, and perhaps even if I do, you'll leave your gun in the car at my house.
I have not ever needed a fire extinguisher in my house and I am 56. but I have them all over the place. I have flood insurance as well even though we live on a slight hill. You saying you don't need a gun is absolutely worthless as an argument
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OK, there are about 375,000 house fires per year that kill 2,500 per year, injure another 12,000. Extinguishers are cheap and I've NEVER heard of one killing even one person when misused, so the downside of having 100 in your house (besides unsightly) is zero. Guns kill about 30,000 per year. So it's completely different in every possible way than carrying a gun to church to prevent, if all goes perfectly, 1 or 2 shooting per year.

And if you don't need flood insurance don't buy it, but that doesn't pose even a slight risk to anyone, unless you pull it out and inflict a paper cut with the policy, or burn it....

Your logic isn't all that good tonight.

the guy in CT whose two daughters were burned alive after he was viciously assaulted and his wife raped and then killed probably believed that too-up to a certain horrible time in his life
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I'm not sure what the point is. Some guy decides to spend $10,000 (or more???) to outfit his car with a NASCAR caliber crash system to keep him safe on his commute can laugh at you for driving your regular car to work by pointing to the 10s of thousand of traffic deaths. Does that make you irrational for NOT outfitting your Lincoln or Audi with the same restraint system Dale Jr. uses at Bristol Motor Speedway?
 
JasperL said:
You don't care but you're posting about it...?



My fear doesn't have to be rational to affect what a gun toting person does to my experience in church. Since the odds of a mass murder are approximately 0.0000001%, a reasonable choice for the church is to concern themselves with a welcoming and comfortable experience for all of their congregants.



Great, and unless I know you very well, and perhaps even if I do, you'll leave your gun in the car at my house.


OK, there are about 375,000 house fires per year that kill 2,500 per year, injure another 12,000. Extinguishers are cheap and I've NEVER heard of one killing even one person when misused, so the downside of having 100 in your house (besides unsightly) is zero. Guns kill about 30,000 per year. So it's completely different in every possible way than carrying a gun to church to prevent, if all goes perfectly, 1 or 2 shooting per year.

And if you don't need flood insurance don't buy it, but that doesn't pose even a slight risk to anyone, unless you pull it out and inflict a paper cut with the policy, or burn it....

Your logic isn't all that good tonight.



I'm not sure what the point is. Some guy decides to spend $10,000 (or more???) to outfit his car with a NASCAR caliber crash system to keep him safe on his commute can laugh at you for driving your regular car to work by pointing to the 10s of thousand of traffic deaths. Does that make you irrational for NOT outfitting your Lincoln or Audi with the same restraint system Dale Jr. uses at Bristol Motor Speedway?
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I don't go into homes of people who are afraid of guns. guns don't kill anyone

its people using guns to fire bullets into other people or themselves. most killings are suicides btw or criminals killing criminals

the fact is-you are afraid of guns-dont own one-unlike you, I don't tell you that you have to conform to my values. I will keep my guns but I won't force you to own one.
 
LaMidRighter said:
I don't mind others being armed so much as it isn't something I agree with for my own behavior, I don't personally think it is right under normal circumstances. If things deteriorate God forbid I may rethink that because I also feel as a Catholic it is my duty to protect innocent life. We are most definitely in some conflicting times, that said, my heart and prayers absolutely go out to the victims and their loved ones.
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You're a good man LMR. :)

Let's hope that things never deteriorate that far.
 
TurtleDude said:
you are in no position to decree what is rational when it comes to guns because your positions are clearly irrational.
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The increase in safety from arming yourself in church is statistically zero. If you want to make a rational case for packing your Glock while worshiping in a church, make it.

what makes a church different than a mall or a theater or a school? does the fact that a church just was shot up play any role in your silly argument
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Frankly in the vast majority of malls, theaters and schools there is also no rational reason to arm yourself. What you're saying is a variant of the Cheney doctrine which allegedly said that if the risk is 1% then we have to treat it as a certainty, but you're articulating the 0.00000001% doctrine when it comes to guns in churches.

I live in one of the safest areas in Ohio and a few days ago, an armed individual broke into a nearby home, terrorized the occupants and robbed them
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And what? Because that happened we should all sit around watching TV with a gun at our fingertips at all times? I'm not sure what the point is. Yes, crime happens, murders happen. And......

years ago I was in a very safe area-a college environment. The DA noted the two robbers figured no one would be packing which is why they traveled across town to pick this place to engage in criminal activity. and those two SOBs were just unlucky enough to try to mug the one guy on the street of college and graduate students, who had a CCW license and knew how to use it as well as looking like just another graduate student. I was the only attempted mugging in that neighborhood in a five year period. and from what my local cop friend from there tells me-after the DA pointed out that almost every adult in that area who wasn't a grad or college student had a permit to carry-there hasn't been another attempted mugging there since then-30 years later
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Nice story. But I'd love to know what safe area exists anywhere were almost every adult has a carry permit. Probably got a lot of people wearing tin foil too.
 
JasperL said:
The increase in safety from arming yourself in church is statistically zero. If you want to make a rational case for packing your Glock while worshiping in a church, make it.



Frankly in the vast majority of malls, theaters and schools there is also no rational reason to arm yourself. What you're saying is a variant of the Cheney doctrine which allegedly said that if the risk is 1% then we have to treat it as a certainty, but you're articulating the 0.00000001% doctrine when it comes to guns in churches.



And what? Because that happened we should all sit around watching TV with a gun at our fingertips at all times? I'm not sure what the point is. Yes, crime happens, murders happen. And......



Nice story. But I'd love to know what safe area exists anywhere were almost every adult has a carry permit. Probably got a lot of people wearing tin foil too.
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your failure is thinking those who legally have a gun and know how to use it are statistically a source of problems. that is not true.

you are unaware of the fact that years ago-in some Eastern states, the only way you could own a pistol and take it out of your house was to have such a permit

and when you call such people "tin foil wearers" you prove what I have said about gun restrictionists or gun haters

its not crime you despise nor criminals, its people who own guns and don't tend to vote the same way you do
 
US Conservative said:
Jebus. We aren't talking about some grand abstraction here-we are talking about real life. You can blame this on society, and you will missing the point.
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It's not an abstraction. It's the root problem. Not just for gun crime, but for gang violence, addiction, mental illness, abortion, and so on....

I get your point, someone trained with a gun could have stopped him. I get it didn't matter that it was a gun free zone to the kid. But that will only have happened AFTER the shooting has started. The point is to not let our children fall through the cracks. Prevent it before it needs to be stopped.
 
Occam's Razor said:
It's not an abstraction. It's the root problem. Not just for gun crime, but for gang violence, addiction, mental illness, abortion, and so on....

I get your point, someone trained with a gun could have stopped him. I get it didn't matter that it was a gun free zone to the kid. But that will only have happened AFTER the shooting has started. The point is to not let our children fall through the cracks. Prevent it before it needs to be stopped.
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This person had a history of mental illness, as these shooters typically are.
Sunshine and rainbows would not have changed that.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Well it's now coming out the parents didn't actually buy him a gun,
they have him a few hundred bucks for his birthday and he bought it at a sporting goods store
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, evidentially the charges for felony drug possession weren't reported to NICS so he passed the background check
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I'm going to guess that they don't have a few hundred thousand dollars to pay for his attorneys.
 
WSUwarrior said:
Its happened recently. Remember the Islamic idiots that tried to shoot up the muhammad drawing contest? How many did they kill? ZERO.
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The police and the armed guards were expecting an attack. How often does that happen?


Another one...in Oklahoma....another muslim POS was beheading people at a business and one of the managers shot the guy before he could kill anyone else.
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It was lucky that an Oklahoma Reserve Officer was on the scene and knew exactly what to do. The same happened at Trolley Square Mall in SLC where an off duty officer stopped a shooting spree as well. But that's just having the right person being in the right place at the right time. Columbine had armed guards present and they couldn't prevent a killing spree even after more cops showed up.


Oregon mall shooting....good guy didnt even have to fire a shot...merely his presence caused the shooter to kill himself instead of more innocent people.
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The good guy was pretty shook up over it, too. But the shooter dropped most of his ammo and his gun jammed so it's debatable whether it was the good guys actions that caused the bad guy to run off and kill himself. But still, I'm glad he was there to take him out if he had to.
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't go into homes of people who are afraid of guns. guns don't kill anyone
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I'm not afraid of guns in the least. I own several, handguns, rifles, shotguns. Been shooting firearms since I was a child, and still do.

But in part because I've been around guns my whole life, I also do not pretend that they don't pose a risk. I've seen a guy in a dove field blow off the back off his ankle when he dropped his shotgun, I've been in a duck blind where the guy sitting next to me blew a hole in the blind across the guy on the end's leg, my brother took an "unloaded" .44 mag, pointed it at the head of our dog, moved it away at the last second, and blew a hole in the wall, three other times hunting I've seen people accidentally discharge their weapon, thankfully into the air. And that doesn't count the other times shooting skeet or trap when a gun accidentally discharged pointing down range - add 3 or 4 more.

So unless there is a reason for you to have a gun on your hip in my house, I don't want to have to worry one second whether you're an idiot or will do an idiot thing with that weapon in my house.

I think the problem is if you're being truthful, you've been trained to handle a firearm. Great, I admire that - seriously. But any yahoo who can print his name, and read it back, can get a carry permit, so I actually do not assume that people carrying firearms do know what they're doing. And I don't want to have to worry about those idiots in church of all places.

its people using guns to fire bullets into other people or themselves. most killings are suicides btw or criminals killing criminals
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????

the fact is-you are afraid of guns-dont own one-unlike you, I don't tell you that you have to conform to my values. I will keep my guns but I won't force you to own one.
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See above. I have five guns within 20 feet of me as I type this.

And if you carry a gun into my church, you're demanding that I in many ways conform to your values.
 
US Conservative said:
This person had a history of mental illness, as these shooters typically are.
Sunshine and rainbows would not have changed that.
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Drop the ridiculous hyperbole, it doesn't fly with me. Not saying anything about sunshine and rainbows. I'm saying mental illness is common. Lots of people suffer from one form or another. Lots of kids exactly like this one suffering exactly the same illness... That don't shoot people. Why? Because the have the family support structures, access to health care, guidance, etc.

Thats not sunshine and rainbows... It's hard freakin work.
 
US Conservative said:
Sometimes it works (lanza), sometimes it does not. There are no slam dunks here-nothing is certain.

I wish we lived in a world where these things were certain to be stopped-we dont.

So I will support what does the best to mitigate such things.

That starts with guns on scene long before the police.
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Having guns always present usually just results in injury or death from accidental shootings. I'll bet there are lot more of those than there are mass murders or homicides.
 
TurtleDude said:
your failure is thinking those who legally have a gun and know how to use it are statistically a source of problems. that is not true.
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As I said above, you must assume that because you 'know how to use it' that others do. I don't make that assumption. And in a place as statistically as safe as a church, there is no reason for anyone, rational or irrational, to worry whether you do or don't know what you're doing. Worry whether your child will take it out of your wife's purse, and shoot me, you'll leave it on the back of the toilet, drop it, etc.

you are unaware of the fact that years ago-in some Eastern states, the only way you could own a pistol and take it out of your house was to have such a permit
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OK, I guess, but so what?

and when you call such people "tin foil wearers" you prove what I have said about gun restrictionists or gun haters
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It was sarcasm. I don't believe your story that almost everyone in any area had carry permits or that it was why some area was safe from violent crime for 30 years. Criminals are typically very stupid people, as you know. That they knew this and accounted for it defies logic.

its not crime you despise nor criminals, its people who own guns and don't tend to vote the same way you do
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Holy strawman Batman!! It's late and this discussion is deteriorating. I'll pass further comment tonight.
 
Occam's Razor said:
Drop the ridiculous hyperbole, it doesn't fly with me. Not saying anything about sunshine and rainbows. I'm saying mental illness is common. Lots of people suffer from one form or another. Lots of kids exactly like this one suffering exactly the same illness... That don't shoot people. Why? Because the have the family support structures, access to health care, guidance, etc.

Thats not sunshine and rainbows... It's hard freakin work.
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Not everyone will have the optimum treatments, and even if they did-some will still occasionally do things like this. Its not common, but then again neither are these shootings.
 
Moot said:
Having guns always present usually just results in injury or death from accidental shootings.
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Simply untrue. If it was, the police and military wouldn't use guns, and there would be hundreds of thousands injured when they legally protect themselves with guns each year. :2wave:
 
US Conservative said:
Simply untrue. If it was, the police and military wouldn't use guns, and there would be hundreds of thousands injured when they legally protect themselves with guns each year. :2wave:
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Not everyone with a gun has police or military training either.
 
Well, I think we all know who is going to be on the next cover of Rolling Stones magazine! :shoot
 
Fletch said:
If it is true that the parents of the shooter bought this kid the gun he used and gave it to him for a birthday present, then they share some blame in my book. Perhaps what they did wasn't criminal, but it is easily one of the stupidest things anyone has done in a long, long time. But other than that, yes, the one responsible here is the shooter.
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Eh, I don't necessarily agree unless they had some inkling that he might do something like this. If not, they were just buying their kid a gift that was both legal and that they thought he'd like.
 
Ahlevah said:
Yes, the blame for the shooting is solely the responsibility of the shooter, but people should take responsibility for their personal welfare, including defending their lives and those in their charge.
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And whether they do or not is irrelevant to who's fault it is if they are harmed, especially if there is no reasonable expectation of being harmed.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Eh, I don't necessarily agree unless they had some inkling that he might do something like this. If not, they were just buying their kid a gift that was both legal and that they thought he'd like.
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A CNN article reported that the grandfather said the parents just gave him birthday money and he bought the gun on his own. But his uncle told the press that his dad gave it to him. But I haven't seen any confirmation by the police on either of those claims.
 
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