Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

gdgyva · Jun 19, 2015

LUXEMBOURG (AP) — Europe was scrambling Friday to pick up the pieces after another failed meeting over Greece's bailout that reinforced fears that the country was heading for bankruptcy and a possible euro exit.

Several European countries said openly they are getting ready for the possibility of Greece leaving the euro. And though there was no sign of panic in the streets of Greece over that prospect, officials say Greeks are taking money out of banks in growing amounts.

As a result, the European Central Bank has scheduled a teleconference of its governing council to discuss emergency credit for Greek banks — just two days after it increased the amounts it was willing to provide. The ECB has been steadily increasing the credit it allows Greek banks to draw on.

The ECB could turn off that support if it thinks Greece is going bust, but that's not expected ahead of Monday's emergency meeting of the eurozone's 19 leaders. The country needs a deal to get more bailout loans from creditors before June 30, when it has the first of a series of debt repayments it cannot afford.

Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure - AOL.com

the PIIG issue is not off the table

Europe still has trouble....and it isnt going away

An EU official said 2 billion euros ($2.3 billion) had been taken out of Greek banks in the last three days.
"Money is going out of the Greek banks faster than at any time before," said the official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the situation.

be aware of the issues, and what conceivably could do to the world's economy

OrphanSlug · Jun 19, 2015

Monday is going to be a real mess in Greece.

PeteEU · Jun 19, 2015

gdgyva said:
the PIIG issue is not off the table

Based on what?

Europe still has trouble....and it isnt going away

Europe always has trouble some where, so duh.

Higgins86 · Jun 19, 2015

It is all starting to unravel and if Greece leave I predict it will start an exodus with countries like Ireland, Italy, Spain looking to follow them. We have a big vote ( hopefully) in the next couple of years and right now I dont see any reason why Britain should stay on this sinking ship.

OrphanSlug · Jun 19, 2015

PeteEU said:
Based on what?

Europe always has trouble some where, so duh.

Was it not you about a month ago right here in the forums suggesting Greece is not in trouble and that all would be well? In the mean time it took another billion from the ECB just to ensure Greek banks could open on Monday.

PeteEU · Jun 19, 2015

OrphanSlug said:
Was it not you about a month ago right here in the forums suggesting Greece is not in trouble and that all would be well? In the mean time it took another billion from the ECB just to ensure Greek banks could open on Monday.

No I said it was a game of chicken and politics. Greece has always been in trouble, but there is plenty of incentive for both sides to make a deal. The problem is the IMF.

What I was quoting was the PIIGS comment because the only country in trouble is Greece. The rest are out of bailout or never were in it, and the economies for the most part are growing nicely. Only one that may be a problem is Italy, but they are hardly going to go under... they just have **** growth as usual. There is a lot of fearmongering going on from Anglo-American talking heads and anti-Europe peoples... Greece aint gonna kill the Euro or the EU and in the end they will make some sort of deal.

PeteEU · Jun 19, 2015

Higgins86 said:
It is all starting to unravel and if Greece leave I predict it will start an exodus with countries like Ireland, Italy, Spain looking to follow them. We have a big vote ( hopefully) in the next couple of years and right now I dont see any reason why Britain should stay on this sinking ship.

What is unravelling? Why would Ireland or Italy or Spain want to leave the EU?

Higgins86 · Jun 19, 2015

PeteEU said:
What is unravelling? Why would Ireland or Italy or Spain want to leave the EU?

anti-austerity parties are growing in strength in these countries, a Greek exit and the aftermath it will bring will only strengthen their position.

gdgyva · Jun 19, 2015

PeteEU said:
Based on what?

Europe always has trouble some where, so duh.

IS THE euro zone at a turning-point? Policymakers, unsurprisingly, would have you believe so. They point to faster-than-expected growth in the fourth quarter of 2014: the euro zone as a whole grew by 0.3% in the quarter, and its biggest economy, Germany, expanded by 0.7%. The European Commission is forecasting growth in 2015 of 1.5%, which would be the euro area's best outcome since 2011 when it grew by 1.6%.

Still, it's hard to get excited. France and Italy, the zone's second- and third-largest economies, stagnated in the final quarter of the year. Greece's return to the headlines has the potential to unsettle markets. And fears grow that the 19-member currency club may fall into deflation: prices are falling in Germany, France and Spain. The ECB has adopted measures to boost prices and growth—most notably by agreeing to a controversial programme of quantitative easing—but it did so for a reason.

European economy guide: Taking Europe

deflation can kill an economy.....

and Germany alone cant hold up the region

OrphanSlug · Jun 19, 2015

PeteEU said:
No I said it was a game of chicken and politics. Greece has always been in trouble, but there is plenty of incentive for both sides to make a deal. The problem is the IMF.

What I was quoting was the PIIGS comment because the only country in trouble is Greece. The rest are out of bailout or never were in it, and the economies for the most part are growing nicely. Only one that may be a problem is Italy, but they are hardly going to go under... they just have **** growth as usual. There is a lot of fearmongering going on from Anglo-American talking heads and anti-Europe peoples... Greece aint gonna kill the Euro or the EU and in the end they will make some sort of deal.

So what is your position on Greece? And your opinion on them being able to negotiate a stay in the EU/Euro or having to exit?

PeteEU · Jun 19, 2015

OrphanSlug said:
So what is your position on Greece? And your opinion on them being able to negotiate a stay in the EU/Euro or having to exit?

It has always been in the cards that Greece was to get some sort of debt forgiveness. Ever since the debt was moved from the banks to the sovereign states, then this has been the ultimate goal. Now debt forgiveness is the carrot that is being used to make sure that Greece goes through with the structural reforms that are needed to make the state of Greece sustainable in the future.

Now the problem is that the IMF and some what the EU have demanded a lot of the Greeks and especially demanded certain things that is actually bad for the Greek people and country. For example the privatisation of public companies. The IMF wants this done now and as fast as possible. Problem is that the deals done are cheating the Greek people out of billions. Why should Greece sell public companies at 10 cents on the euro? Why not get as much as possible? That is one of the sticking points with the new Greek government. Then there is more cuts in pensions. At the moment you can barely live off a state pension in Greece, and they expect more cuts? Come on. Also none of the plans that the IMF and EU want for Greece include growth plans. Why is that? The budget has a primary surplus. It is time to grow the economy, but you cant do that by constantly cutting the public sector and adding new regulation/taxes.

Now on the flip side, I fully understand that Greece needs to keep going on with the reforms. I for one, would love to see a Scandinavia like tax system (not rates) put in place. That would do wonders for any country. This takes time and energy to implement, but once done the amount of fraud falls dramatically.

So at some point the EU has to give it self, while the Greeks have to do it as well. I suspect both sides are willing, but I also suspect that the main problem child is the IMF.

PeteEU · Jun 19, 2015

gdgyva said:
IS THE euro zone at a turning-point? Policymakers, unsurprisingly, would have you believe so. They point to faster-than-expected growth in the fourth quarter of 2014: the euro zone as a whole grew by 0.3% in the quarter, and its biggest economy, Germany, expanded by 0.7%. The European Commission is forecasting growth in 2015 of 1.5%, which would be the euro area's best outcome since 2011 when it grew by 1.6%.

Still, it's hard to get excited. France and Italy, the zone's second- and third-largest economies, stagnated in the final quarter of the year. Greece's return to the headlines has the potential to unsettle markets. And fears grow that the 19-member currency club may fall into deflation: prices are falling in Germany, France and Spain. The ECB has adopted measures to boost prices and growth—most notably by agreeing to a controversial programme of quantitative easing—but it did so for a reason.

European economy guide: Taking Europe

deflation can kill an economy.....

and Germany alone cant hold up the region

Well we have had deflation and the economy aint dead yet. This is an old economic book myth that has been deflated it self as of late. Short terms of deflation is actually beneficiary in many aspects, where as continuous deflation is a problem... up to a point.

Yes France and Italy are stagnating.. but guess what, they always are. Spain is growing by the most in Europe, funny how that is not mentioned. Portugal and Ireland are growing as well last time I checked. The Euro is low, which is great because exports are booming. The markets are up, the bond rates until recently (thanks to the Greek situation) have been low.. still are but not as low like they were a month or so ago. The Eurozone aint dead or dying, it is moving forward despite the Greek doomsaying and Anglo-American talking heads and their doom and gloom.

fmw · Jun 19, 2015

gdgyva said:
LUXEMBOURG (AP) — Europe was scrambling Friday to pick up the pieces after another failed meeting over Greece's bailout that reinforced fears that the country was heading for bankruptcy and a possible euro exit.

I would think they would be pleased to get rid of Greece.

SocialDemocrat · Jun 19, 2015

If the European Union would stop pushing austerity on Greece it would eliminate the need for a Grexit in the first place. I doubt that Greece will actually choose to leave the EU though. Tsipras was elected on an anti-austerity platform, not an anti-EU platform, and I doubt that he wants to oversee the country actually leave the union.

fmw said:
I would think they would be pleased to get rid of Greece.

No they would not. The European Union is being held together by very weak threads, and if Greece is allowed to leave, it sets a precedent that other countries can as well, and significantly weakens the case for the existence of the EU in the first place.

Manc Skipper · Jun 19, 2015

Monday is crunch day. The US/GB will have pressured for a deal to be made to prevent Greece moving toward Russia and the East politically.

fmw · Jun 19, 2015

SocialDemocrat said:
and if Greece is allowed to leave, it sets a precedent that other countries can as well, and significantly weakens the case for the existence of the EU in the first place.

I didn't realize there was a reasonable case for the existence of the EU.

Fenton · Jun 19, 2015

SocialDemocrat said:
If the European Union would stop pushing austerity on Greece it would eliminate the need for a Grexit in the first place. I doubt that Greece will actually choose to leave the EU though. Tsipras was elected on an anti-austerity platform, not an anti-EU platform, and I doubt that he wants to oversee the country actually leave the union.

No they would not. The European Union is being held together by very weak threads, and if Greece is allowed to leave, it sets a precedent that other countries can as well, and significantly weakens the case for the existence of the EU in the first place.

" Austerity "... .

Lol !!

So, after Greece misrepresented their financial position and entered into the Union under false pretenses, and then violated the deficit spending limitations spelled out in the Maastricht treaty, ( a treaty THEY signed ) , and then sold off a bunch of worthless bonds so they could CONTINUE to spend themselves into insolvency, you think the solution is to give them MORE money ?

More loans ?

Greece is the procuct of the Socialist mindset with citizens who've been spoiled by other people's money to the point where they've lost the ability to self sustain without massive handouts.

The only reason why the left wants Greece bailed out is Greece ( among other Nations ) is a glaring representation of the failures of Socialism.

tech30528 · Jun 19, 2015

OrphanSlug said:
Monday is going to be a real mess in Greece.

A Greecey mess.

SocialDemocrat · Jun 20, 2015

fmw said:
I didn't realize there was a reasonable case for the existence of the EU.

I think there's a strong case for a federal Europe, but I'm not going to even attempt defend the current EU government, given that they are just so incompetent. My only point is that the European Union government would not be okay with letting Greece simply leave, despite all of the problems it is currently causing.

Fenton said:
" Austerity "... .

Lol !!

Regardless of whether or not you support it, it's pretty clear that's what it is.

So, after Greece misrepresented their financial position and entered into the Union under false pretenses, and then violated the deficit spending limitations spelled out in the Maastricht treaty, ( a treaty THEY signed ) , and then sold off a bunch of worthless bonds so they could CONTINUE to spend themselves into insolvency, you think the solution is to give them MORE money ?

More loans ?

Greece is the procuct of the Socialist mindset with citizens who've been spoiled by other people's money to the point where they've lost the ability to self sustain without massive handouts.

The only reason why the left wants Greece bailed out is Greece ( among other Nations ) is a glaring representation of the failures of Socialism.

I find it hilarious how you think the past Greek governments are the same entity as the Greek people, and that the Greek people should punished for the failures of their government. Well I guess I would find it hilarious if that viewpoint wasn't actually causing huge problems in Greece right now.

I won't deny that past Greek governments, whether it is PASOK or New Democracy, have been terribly incompetent, but that's why they've been kicked out of office. Blame this on socialism all you want, but Greece has only been governed by a socialist party since January. Greek citizens aren't relying on massive handouts. They're suffering from skyrocketing unemployment and poverty rates, and to blame the debt crisis on "laziness" and an inability of people to sustain themselves when so many people are actually suffering through no fault of their own and an inability of past governments to handle money responsibly is not only twisted logic, but frankly offensive.

PeteEU · Jun 20, 2015

Fenton said:
" Austerity "... .

Lol !!

So, after Greece misrepresented their financial position and entered into the Union under false pretenses,

You need your definitions right. Greece entered the EEC in 1981. They did not lie or enter the EEC under false pretences. The EEC became the EU and hence Greece could not enter the Union under false pretences. Now entering the Eurozone is another matter and here there are unconfirmed reports that they did "cook the books" a bit to enter and then a few years later started to hide massive debts and deficits with the help of American banks.. yes the usual suspects.

and then violated the deficit spending limitations spelled out in the Maastricht treaty, ( a treaty THEY signed )

To be fair, Germany has been violating those limitations as well. And they are not limitations per say but guidelines.

and then sold off a bunch of worthless bonds so they could CONTINUE to spend themselves into insolvency, you think the solution is to give them MORE money ?

They were not worthless per say

Greece is the procuct of the Socialist mindset with citizens who've been spoiled by other people's money to the point where they've lost the ability to self sustain without massive handouts.

this is where you go into full partisan bull**** mode. There does not exist such a thing as a "socialist mindset". Most of the corrupt actions were done under a conservative lead government. Yes the socialists were involved too. And there was no "massive handouts", that is a bull**** myth pushed by the Anglo-American talking heads who cant admit that their whole economic foundation of trickle down economics is based on a lie and bull****. Relative to other economies in Europe, the Greek public sector was relatively small. The Greek problem has always been collecting taxes, something the Anglo-American talking heads refuse to admit because they hate taxes.

The only reason why the left wants Greece bailed out is Greece ( among other Nations ) is a glaring representation of the failures of Socialism.

More partisan bull**** that is not based in reality. You do realize that when Greece was bailed out it was conservative governments in Europe that did it right?

PeteEU · Jun 20, 2015

SocialDemocrat said:
I think there's a strong case for a federal Europe, but I'm not going to even attempt defend the current EU government, given that they are just so incompetent. My only point is that the European Union government would not be okay with letting Greece simply leave, despite all of the problems it is currently causing.

Regardless of whether or not you support it, it's pretty clear that's what it is.

I find it hilarious how you think the past Greek governments are the same entity as the Greek people, and that the Greek people should punished for the failures of their government. Well I guess I would find it hilarious if that viewpoint wasn't actually causing huge problems in Greece right now.

I won't deny that past Greek governments, whether it is PASOK or New Democracy, have been terribly incompetent, but that's why they've been kicked out of office. Blame this on socialism all you want, but Greece has only been governed by a socialist party since January. Greek citizens aren't relying on massive handouts. They're suffering from skyrocketing unemployment and poverty rates, and to blame the debt crisis on "laziness" and an inability of people to sustain themselves when so many people are actually suffering through no fault of their own and an inability of past governments to handle money responsibly is not only twisted logic, but frankly offensive.

Just to correct you.. there is no European or EU government.

John V · Jun 20, 2015

Fenton said:
" Austerity "... .

Lol !!

So, after Greece misrepresented their financial position and entered into the Union under false pretenses, and then violated the deficit spending limitations spelled out in the Maastricht treaty, ( a treaty THEY signed ) , and then sold off a bunch of worthless bonds so they could CONTINUE to spend themselves into insolvency, you think the solution is to give them MORE money ?

More loans ?

Greece is the procuct of the Socialist mindset with citizens who've been spoiled by other people's money to the point where they've lost the ability to self sustain without massive handouts.

The only reason why the left wants Greece bailed out is Greece ( among other Nations ) is a glaring representation of the failures of Socialism.

:lol: You know, don’t you. The EU is one big, man-made, corrupt, anti-democratic disaster and the sooner the whole lot collapses, the better. The best thing the Greek government could do is have a heart to heart talk with its people and try to take the dummy out of their mouths, but that isn’t going to work either and to make matters worse, they’ve just elected a communist as leader. Greece is a basket case and Italy, Ireland, Cyprus, Portugal and Spain aren’t far behind.

Fenton · Jun 20, 2015

SocialDemocrat said:
I think there's a strong case for a federal Europe, but I'm not going to even attempt defend the current EU government, given that they are just so incompetent. My only point is that the European Union government would not be okay with letting Greece simply leave, despite all of the problems it is currently causing.

Regardless of whether or not you support it, it's pretty clear that's what it is.

I find it hilarious how you think the past Greek governments are the same entity as the Greek people, and that the Greek people should punished for the failures of their government. Well I guess I would find it hilarious if that viewpoint wasn't actually causing huge problems in Greece right now.

I won't deny that past Greek governments, whether it is PASOK or New Democracy, have been terribly incompetent, but that's why they've been kicked out of office. Blame this on socialism all you want, but Greece has only been governed by a socialist party since January. Greek citizens aren't relying on massive handouts. They're suffering from skyrocketing unemployment and poverty rates, and to blame the debt crisis on "laziness" and an inability of people to sustain themselves when so many people are actually suffering through no fault of their own and an inability of past governments to handle money responsibly is not only twisted logic, but frankly offensive.

I find your criticisms of " austerity " hilarious !

As if austerity is a policy meant to grow economies in the first place.

Austerity, is the inevitable consequence of the engine that drives Socialism ( into the ground )

Massive deficit spending of other people's money.

The bill came due for Greece, and instead of being the responsible debtor, they're doing everything they can to welch on their contracts.

Defaulting on debt is aa socialist tradition apparently.

SocialDemocrat · Jun 20, 2015

PeteEU said:
Just to correct you.. there is no European or EU government.

Sorry, the European Commission was the term I was looking for.

Fenton said:
I find your criticisms of " austerity " hilarious !

As if austerity is a policy meant to grow economies in the first place.

Austerity, is the inevitable consequence of the engine that drives Socialism ( into the ground )

Massive deficit spending of other people's money.

The bill came due for Greece, and instead of being the responsible debtor, they're doing everything they can to welch on their contracts.

Defaulting on debt is aa socialist tradition apparently.

Pushing Greek citizens into poverty is clearly the wrong solution. They are being punished for the irresponsible actions of their government; there is no moral justification for that.

PeteEU · Jun 20, 2015

SocialDemocrat said:
Sorry, the European Commission was the term I was looking for.

And that aint exactly correct either

The ones that are calling the shots are the Council of Ministers, not the European Commission. The European Commission is nothing but a bunch of glorified bureaucrats.

Pushing Greek citizens into poverty is clearly the wrong solution. They are being punished for the irresponsible actions of their government; there is no moral justification for that.

To be fair pushing citizens into poverty is almost the calling card of trickle down economics and policy that has been pushed here... just saying.

Europe scrambles to pick up pieces of Greek talks failure

gdgyva

OrphanSlug

A sinister place...

PeteEU

Higgins86

OrphanSlug

A sinister place...

PeteEU

PeteEU

Higgins86

gdgyva

OrphanSlug

A sinister place...

PeteEU

PeteEU

fmw

SocialDemocrat

Well-known member

Manc Skipper

Wrinkly member

fmw

Fenton

tech30528

SocialDemocrat

Well-known member

PeteEU

PeteEU

John V

Well-known member

Fenton

SocialDemocrat

Well-known member

PeteEU