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Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Yeah, the same kind of arguments was once made against seatbelt laws, too.

No they weren't, and besides the real reason for seat belt laws was to provide an unimpeachable pretext for policeman to stop people who weren't doing anything wrong I mean a police officers can't possibly be expected to really know if those black teenagers in the Chevy Impala cruising around the former East Bremerton K-mart really were wearing seatbelts, better pull them over and check, and once he does that, maybe he'll smell marijuana and open their bags. but he had probable cause to stop them because he reasonably believed they weren't belted. , big money from the insurance lobby didn't hurt either.


Hm, let me see here - you're saying that it's equally likely that LESS people would die if the shooter has, say, a 30-round extended mag for his pistol than if he 'only' has a 12-round mag? What you need to get, guy, is that we are not talking about what would or would not have happened in one particular instance. We are talking about LIKELIHOODS...and someone with a much larger magazine is much more likely to be able to fire his weapon more times before he needs to reload...and this means that he is MORE likely to kill MORE people. LIKELIHOODS, guy. No one knows what would or would not happen in one particular instance...but when we look at statistical LIKELIHOODS, the picture is much more easily understood.

ok so what's your legal definition of "Extended"



Oh - NOW you want to talk statistical likelihoods, hm? Thing about statistics is, it takes more than just a glance at the numbers before one can make a judgement using those numbers. How was the training conducted? What were the requirements for that training? Was it required before one purchased a new class of firearm? Or was it a one-time training that covered everything and nobody needs the training a second time? And was the training really required, was it mandatory in nature? Or was it just offered to those who wanted it, since such people are more likely to be safe gun owners anyway?
but in theory, every state with mandatory training should have fewer accidents then ANY state that does not, if that rule is not true, then mandatory training has no justification because the number of accidents are dependent on other factors.
I really suggest you take some courses in stats, that you can learn how easy it is for statistics to be flawed...and how incredibly accurate they can be when properly gathered.
we both live near the same town, lets you and I audit the OC course in stats together.


There very much is a distinction between the rifles you listed above and the higher-end sniper rifles that the military uses today. The M24 system has an effective firing range that is three times that of the M1 Garand.

ah, so you are asking to ban regular bolt action rifles firing standard hunting cartridges! BINGO! please write a sample statute that bans the M-24 and not the Remington 700, its parent platform. for that matter, find me a single person murdered with an M-24. really M-24 IS an R700, M-24 is just a service designation. and any rifle made for Olympics competition will outshoot the M-24.

And again, I believe you'll find that just about ALL first-world democracies - including Switzerland and Israel - already do have laws with all the requirements I listed previously.

I don't live in either Switzerland or Israel, tell you what, I'll compromise and agree to the Czech gun laws plus open carry. you get your mandatory training and certification from a shrink to get a gun license plus registration, i get my ability to carry and own any hardware I like...... oh and make it federal with strict federal preemption. sounds like a fair trade to me.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

And that sounds like a bunch of bigotry to me. You get nowhere in dealing with racism when you paint an entire region of your country and everyone who lives there as ingrained with, understanding, and tolerant of racism.

Tell you what. Go spend around twenty years down there - especially in the local watering holes - and then get back to us and try to keep the same opinion.

Are all Southern conservatives racist? No. But here's the key: most TOLERATE the racism in their fellows. Not only that, but even among the strongest racists down there, most will tell you that they are NOT racist - and they'd pass a lie-detector test while doing so. Why? Because they don't recognize that they themselves are racist. They only see themselves as being 'realist', knowing how things really are: "It's nothing personal against this or that black person, you see - it's just the way blacks are."

Most of the conservatives down there would risk their lives in a heartbeat to save a black man in danger. Most of them would share their food with that black man's family if they were going hungry (hence the honorable tradition of "Southern Hospitality"). But as soon as the blacks are out of earshot, out come all the old racist assumptions and stereotypes. These are what I refer to as the "good racists" - they are well-meaning, they mean no direct harm to the blacks or other minorities or to Muslims or whatever...but once all the suspected PC-police are out of earshot, here come the assumptions and stereotypes once more...

...and this translates into choices inside the voting booth too. This is how almost everyone I knew down there was and is to this day. It's not plastered in some kind of official policy statement - these are simple societal facts, unwritten rules that are understood by almost everyone who lives there.

Guy, you can't tell me this isn't the way it is - I've lived it. I know it better than almost anyone else out there.

It is changing. Slowly, glacially, but it is changing, thanks to the ubiquitous media, the movies, the courts, and the internet. The youth of the South are much less likely to be racist than their forebearers...but so many still are, and so will their children be. The South will be this nation's last bastion of racism long after you and I are laid to rest, but the change is happening, if ever so very slowly.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

I only addressed what you wrote. you certainly weren't addressing racism and politics in the post i quoted.

Really? Here was my post:

I think what you might be missing is the fact that racism and political beliefs are not mutually exclusive. Try living down in the Deep South sometime and you'll see what we mean. Or you could just re-read about the opposition against the Civil Rights Act in general and segregation in particular in the Deep South.

What I'm getting at is that it's very, very difficult for someone who hasn't lived there to really understand just how deeply the racism is ingrained in Southern society...where among most whites there, racism is understood and tolerated...and IMO among most whites there aged 40 and over, accepted and even expected...

...and this does play very much into their politics
.

That's just the way it is in the Deep South.


Sooo...how exactly was I NOT addressing racism and politics in the post you quoted, hm?

Guy, you were trying to reply to several different posts at the same time and you got them mixed up. That's a simple human mistake that we all make from time to time. I've done it too, more times than I can count - and I have no problem with apologizing when I do so.

Question is, are you ready to own up to a simple human mistake that we all make from time to time and is easily forgiven? Or are you going to be one of those who insist on never admitting error no matter how glaringly obvious the error is?
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Really? Here was my post:

I think what you might be missing is the fact that racism and political beliefs are not mutually exclusive. Try living down in the Deep South sometime and you'll see what we mean. Or you could just re-read about the opposition against the Civil Rights Act in general and segregation in particular in the Deep South.

What I'm getting at is that it's very, very difficult for someone who hasn't lived there to really understand just how deeply the racism is ingrained in Southern society...where among most whites there, racism is understood and tolerated...and IMO among most whites there aged 40 and over, accepted and even expected...

...and this does play very much into their politics
.

That's just the way it is in the Deep South.


Sooo...how exactly was I NOT addressing racism and politics in the post you quoted, hm?

Guy, you were trying to reply to several different posts at the same time and you got them mixed up. That's a simple human mistake that we all make from time to time. I've done it too, more times than I can count - and I have no problem with apologizing when I do so.

Question is, are you ready to own up to a simple human mistake that we all make from time to time and is easily forgiven? Or are you going to be one of those who insist on never admitting error no matter how glaringly obvious the error is?

Actually yes, I will own up to quoting the wrong post and entering a different conversation
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Folks, this guy has said he "Wanted to start a civil war". A race war between blacks and whites.


Now I think he's drastically over-estimating his own importance and the impact of his heinous action... but if we let it, this incident could be yet another brick in the wall separating us by race.



Let's not let that happen. Let's come together and condemn this as an act of senseless and abhorrent violence and hate by a evil person whose actions are NOT representative of white South Carolinians or white Americans in general.




Don't let him win. Don't let this drive us further apart in this time when we're already experiencing more racial tensions than we have in a decade. Let's stand together and not let one hateful young man drive yet another wedge between us.


I live in rural SC. Everywhere I've been today, no one is talking about anything else. Everyone says it was horrible. I've not heard one person, not even the scruffiest redneck, say anything affirmative about what this young hater did.

In the military, one of the greatest insults is to deliberately about-face and turn your back on someone, signifying they don't matter. Let's turn out backs on this hateful person and not give him the satisfaction of being a media star.


Let's have our time of mourning and grief for those we've lost, but let's not give this hateful little **** any more attention.

This is a very good post.

People like this young man may be intent on starting a race war - but we don't have to be willing participants.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

This is NOT a racist attack.

This is a mad man using race as an excuse for his problems.

He could have used women, gay men, Muslims, Jews, Christians or just left handed people as targets..but he chose 'blacks'.

As usual, the pathetic American mass media will focus on the 'race' angle and try and make more out of this then there is.


People...America will NEVER get past the massive amount of racism within her borders until her citizens STOP focusing on race and starts focusing on people.

The problem with American racism is not that there are not enough social programs for a certain race, or that people do not talk about racism enough...it is the exact opposite.

There should be zero social programs that focus on the melanin content of people's skins and people should stop looking at each other as belonging to any race but the human race.

Jeez, no western country - and I mean NO western country - talks about 'race' more then Americans. Most Americans just won't shut up about it.

Having lived in both America and Canada, the difference is staggering. There is racism in Canada, but it is a tiny fraction - even on a per capita basis - then in America. You watch Canadian news and you will be waiting a LONG time for them to refer to a 'black' Canadian as anything more then 'a Canadian' (unless the story directly involved 'race'). In America? More times then not, they call the same person 'a black American' - even if the story has NOTHING to do with 'race'.
Why even mention the color of his skin? Because it is a very nasty habit that Americans have gotten into - and they do not even realize it in most cases.

Stop focusing on it and it will eventually fade.

Look at people as nothing but people with different amounts of melanin content as opposed to entirely different 'races' based on little more then skin color.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

No they weren't, and besides the real reason for seat belt laws was to provide an unimpeachable pretext for policeman to stop people who weren't doing anything wrong I mean a police officers can't possibly be expected to really know if those black teenagers in the Chevy Impala cruising around the former East Bremerton K-mart really were wearing seatbelts, better pull them over and check, and once he does that, maybe he'll smell marijuana and open their bags. but he had probable cause to stop them because he reasonably believed they weren't belted. , big money from the insurance lobby didn't hurt either.

What's troubling is that it appears you actually believe what you wrote above. FYI, one of my jobs in my past life was teaching traffic safety to kids who were young, dumb, and full of - ahem - youthful enthusiasms. I have heard just about every argument against seat belts that's ever been made...and yours, sir, ain't one of them.

ok so what's your legal definition of "Extended"

Any mag that contains more rounds than what was originally designed for normal use by the firearm. YES, there's quibbles and whines there: "But what if it's even ONE more???" It's sorta like cops pulling you over for a speed limit violation. YES, they can pull you over for going one freaking mile over the limit...but they really don't start to care until it gets at least five miles over the limit. Same principle applies here.

but in theory, every state with mandatory training should have fewer accidents then ANY state that does not, if that rule is not true, then mandatory training has no justification because the number of accidents are dependent on other factors.

NO, guy - go back and read what I posted - there's way too many variables to consider than to just say, "Well, gee, Gomer, the state has training so it oughta be safer, y'know?"

we both live near the same town, lets you and I audit the OC course in stats together.

I already took stats from Hawaii-Pacific - I've got the benefit of that education already, and I don't need to audit the same course again. But it appears it would do you a lot of good.

ah, so you are asking to ban regular bolt action rifles firing standard hunting cartridges! BINGO! please write a sample statute that bans the M-24 and not the Remington 700, its parent platform. for that matter, find me a single person murdered with an M-24. really M-24 IS an R700, M-24 is just a service designation. and any rifle made for Olympics competition will outshoot the M-24.

You know why I'm including military-grade sniper rifles? Do you remember the societal upheaval the entire nation went through after JFK was assassinated? I'm guessing you don't. The point is, that's the power of one round fired from one gun. Same thing went for the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand - that was just with a pistol, IIRC..and ten million soldiers (and uncounted millions more civilians) died as a result.

YES, Oswald used what's easily available today, something that's quite obsolete to our military...and the assassin of the archduke used something that barely qualifies as a Saturday-night special. But in the modern day, the Secret Service and local law enforcements are often able to shut down most locations with a view of wherever the president will be vulnerable for maybe half-mile radius, maybe more, as situations dictate. But could they shut down everything up to 1500 meters, the range of the M24? Maybe, maybe not...but is your personal want to buy such a sniper rifle more precious than protecting the nation from what happens when a president is assassinated?

I don't live in either Switzerland or Israel, tell you what, I'll compromise and agree to the Czech gun laws plus open carry. you get your mandatory training and certification from a shrink to get a gun license plus registration, i get my ability to carry and own any hardware I like...... oh and make it federal with strict federal preemption. sounds like a fair trade to me.

Their requirements are easily found online...as are their homicide rates.

And it looks like you are approaching this as a game. I suggest you go find some victims' families and spend some time with them and then see if it's as laughable as you seem to think right now.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Only in the minds of liberals with a need to attack conservatives are the actions and statements of the alleged killer here fantasized as political. We could just as easily discuss the possibility that young men who have their hair cut using cereal bowls as a guide are prone to mass murder.

His comments, in my view, were those of a white supremacist who seemed to have grievances against black people, grievances personal to him. Where's the political agenda that he was advancing in what he did and what is known at this time?

Racism and white supremacy are indeed extremist views. His political agenda - based on photo's and reported comments he made - was the denial of power to minorities he hated via their destruction and death. We seem to have some glaring examples of just that sort of tactic throughout history by other fanatic political extremists.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

This is NOT a racist attack.

This is a mad man using race as an excuse for his problems.

He could have used women, gay men, Muslims, Jews, Christians or just left handed people as targets..but he chose 'blacks'.

As usual, the pathetic American mass media will focus on the 'race' angle and try and make more out of this then there is.


People...America will NEVER get past the massive amount of racism within her borders until her citizens STOP focusing on race and starts focusing on people.

The problem with American racism is not that there are not enough social programs for a certain race, or that people do not talk about racism enough...it is the exact opposite.

There should be zero social programs that focus on the melanin content of people's skins and people should stop looking at each other as belonging to any race but the human race.

Jeez, no western country - and I mean NO western country - talks about 'race' more then Americans. Most Americans just won't shut up about it.

Ah. It's the old "pretend it's not there and it will go away all by itself" defense. Pray tell us, how's that worked out for, say, women in the workplace since we never passed the Equal Rights Amendment, since even now women still make only 77% of what men do for working the same job, hm?

Guy, race wasn't an issue in Canada because Canada - along with the rest of the British Empire - outlawed slavery long before the Confederacy fought a war to defend their 'right' to own slaves. If you were to travel much of the rest of the world, there's lots of racism everywhere. I remember a sign on a door to a bar in Pattaya, Thailand: "No Arabs or Blacks allowed".

But when it comes to Europe, they were much more progressive than America when it came to race. Before our troops landed in WWI, the French officer corps was told to expect racism among our troops, that things like racial segregation was normal to Americans. America didn't even pass the 1964 Civil Rights Act until after significantly more than a century had passed since England and France had done the same.

In other words, race is a problem here in American NOT because we keep paying attention to it, but because it HAS been a problem in America FAR longer than it has been in the rest of the developed world. It's not the fault of people talking about it - it's the fault of American society having allowed racism to be a NORMAL part of American life for far longer than in the rest of the developed world.

It's getting better, slowly, surely, it's getting better - but we've still got a long way to go. And we will make ZERO progress by ignoring it and hoping it will go away.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

What's troubling is that it appears you actually believe what you wrote above. FYI, one of my jobs in my past life was teaching traffic safety to kids who were young, dumb, and full of - ahem - youthful enthusiasms. I have heard just about every argument against seat belts that's ever been made...and yours, sir, ain't one of them.



Any mag that contains more rounds than what was originally designed for normal use by the firearm. YES, there's quibbles and whines there: "But what if it's even ONE more???" It's sorta like cops pulling you over for a speed limit violation. YES, they can pull you over for going one freaking mile over the limit...but they really don't start to care until it gets at least five miles over the limit. Same principle applies here.



NO, guy - go back and read what I posted - there's way too many variables to consider than to just say, "Well, gee, Gomer, the state has training so it oughta be safer, y'know?"



I already took stats from Hawaii-Pacific - I've got the benefit of that education already, and I don't need to audit the same course again. But it appears it would do you a lot of good.



You know why I'm including military-grade sniper rifles? Do you remember the societal upheaval the entire nation went through after JFK was assassinated? I'm guessing you don't. The point is, that's the power of one round fired from one gun. Same thing went for the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand - that was just with a pistol, IIRC..and ten million soldiers (and uncounted millions more civilians) died as a result.

YES, Oswald used what's easily available today, something that's quite obsolete to our military...and the assassin of the archduke used something that barely qualifies as a Saturday-night special. But in the modern day, the Secret Service and local law enforcements are often able to shut down most locations with a view of wherever the president will be vulnerable for maybe half-mile radius, maybe more, as situations dictate. But could they shut down everything up to 1500 meters, the range of the M24? Maybe, maybe not...but is your personal want to buy such a sniper rifle more precious than protecting the nation from what happens when a president is assassinated?



Their requirements are easily found online...as are their homicide rates.

And it looks like you are approaching this as a game. I suggest you go find some victims' families and spend some time with them and then see if it's as laughable as you seem to think right now.

Well actually you should write legislation for gun control groups, any law written as you're proposing would be struck down as unconstitutionally vague.

Game? I just offered a compromise measure to your more extreme ideas, from a country with among the lowest homicode rates in the world. See you wonder why it's rare any gun legislation gets passed, this is exhibit A.

However I think I made my point, you're now suggesting banning ordinary rifles while terming them "sniper rifles" because the M-24 is only a hunting rifle with a bipod and lightened trigger. You can't possibly ban that without banning the parent rifle, not in any way that won't get tossed void for vagueness
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Yes, I pointed out that you used wikipedia and then ignored the parts which didn't fit your statement. You denied it, I pulled the exact sentence fragment which you copied up and showed you the parts of the page which simply contradicted your statements. You're still denying that you did it and making up some weird claim that I have a problem with people using Wikipedia. I don't. I simply pointed out your selective use of it. We'll get into that in a bit.

Oh bull crap Hatuey, who do you think you are fooling? You simply accused my of using Wikipedia as my source and then when you decided to start using wikipedia as your source you accused me of using WebMD. You are hypocritical and dishonest to your core. Trying to back away from your original statements now is laughable.

Still going on nothing more than because you say so? Good.

Going by the evidence.

I see reading comprehension really hasn't caught up yet.

I see you are still using Wikipedia. Psychiatric assessments treat suicidal and homicidal ideation the same way. For the same reason that a person contemplating suicide is not mentally healthy, so to is someone who is contemplating murder.

Here is a typical assessment form.

First it's a mental illness, when you were called on that, it became a symptom, now it's back to being a disorder. It's almost like you have no clue what it is you're discussing and you're just making it up as you go. Here, I'll let you read it again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Homicidal_ideation

In the same way that someone who is suicidal is mentally ill. Oh hey look, you linked to wikipedia again.


It doesn't matter how much you try and deny it jmotivator, it's not a mental illness. It can be caused by it, but not necessarily. The fact that you're still claiming what your own source denies is absolutely hilarious.

Wikipedia isn't my source, Hatuey, it's yours. My source is the ICD-10.


Still pretending that your opinion on his views make him mentally ill? Good.

I'm still standing by my evaluation based on the evidence.

It's almost like you made up some weird claim that I was calling into question your use of wikipedia, and not your selective quoting skills. Spare me your emotions.

No, it's exactly like calling you out of being a hypocrite.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

So do we have any new information? Or is it just a bicker fest about guns and racism?
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

bottom line-the most serious crime a person can commit is mass murder. if the penalties for that doesn't deter him, any other "prophylactic" measure won't either

If he was law abiding he wouldn't have even driven to the church because reports are that he didn't even have a driver's license.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

His comments, in my view, were those of a white supremacist who seemed to have grievances against black people, grievances personal to him. Where's the political agenda that he was advancing in what he did and what is known at this time?

This comment, in my view is that of a white supremacist who seems to have grievances against black people......"Finally, I'd say this video does nothing to support the "black lives matter" nonsense since I didn't see a single black person in the video who gave a **** about black life they were trying to end.

This video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American Justice System. Americans should be glad these less than humans are off the streets."
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Well actually you should write legislation for gun control groups, any law written as you're proposing would be struck down as unconstitutionally vague.

Guy, I don't know about you, but I know firsthand what it's like to write regulations that others have to follow - I do have a clue what it means to prevent - and in rare cases allow - loopholes. And in informal discussions, I don't think any of us have EVER been so anal as to write down a suggestion for a law in the kind of language and detail such normally entail in the legislative process.

Game? I just offered a compromise measure to your more extreme ideas, from a country with among the lowest homicode rates in the world. See you wonder why it's rare any gun legislation gets passed, this is exhibit A.

Let's agree on something - you like the Czech Republic's gun laws, so let's adopt them - ALL of them! Absolutely freaking YES! Right NOW, TODAY!!!!

And this is yet another example of gun-rights overenthusiasts' assumption that there are safe and orderly democracies out there with really lax gun laws. But there aren't any...just as there aren't any examples of first-world democracies devolving into tyranny because they have strong and effective gun control.

However I think I made my point, you're now suggesting banning ordinary rifles while terming them "sniper rifles" because the M-24 is only a hunting rifle with a bipod and lightened trigger. You can't possibly ban that without banning the parent rifle, not in any way that won't get tossed void for vagueness

'Scuse you, the M-24 is NOT an "ordinary rifle", and I strongly doubt you'd find a qualified sniper out there who'd agree with you on that. This is just another example of you deliberately twisting words and language. You should know better than that.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

And that sounds like a bunch of bigotry to me. You get nowhere in dealing with racism when you paint an entire region of your country and everyone who lives there as ingrained with, understanding, and tolerant of racism.

Glen always paints the south as being racist. He lived there, he knows it, and so on. If someone didn't know anything but what he posted, you would swear that everyone is racist in the south.

Racism exists. Sexism exists. There are nutz who hate people who eat meat and wear fur coats. There are nutz who hate doctors who perform abortions. There are nutz who think Muslims are taking over the USA. There are nutz who think the government is spying through their bedroom windows. There are nutz who think Fox News is to blame for every single crisis of race in this country. So what's the answer?

This was a 21 year old man with a host of mental problems. He, like most of these nutz, selected the most vulnerable group he could - churchgoers without guns. He didn't drive into the "hood" and shoot at a group of black thugs. He didn't find some Crips and Bloods. He didn't shoot at the house of a black person who is on bail awaiting trial for a crime against a white person. He was like that idiot in Newtown who was a coward too. If this idiot really wanted a civil war, and really thought blacks were raping "his" women (how many of them did he expect to find in a church on a Wednesday night anyway?), this isn't the target he would have chosen.

This was intentional. He has issues and he wanted to make a splash. Posts like those made by Glen make this situation far worse than the horrific one it already is.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

I can't imagine worse than sitting with his victims for an hour and then committing premeditated murder in God's house.

Yes, Roof was fixated on blacks. But he could've been fixated on anything--girls who rejected him, other gamers who outscored him, anything. Like other mass murderers, however, he nurtured his insane grudge, planned for months, and executed innocent people. Blacks, first-graders, movie patrons, and mall shoppers are all equally victims.

Ted Bundy's victims were all carefully selected because they resembled the girl who broke up with him in college. His spree went on for many years.

Roof, like that POS in Newtown, selected the most vulnerable of victims - obviously unarmed churchgoers. Only slightly above unarmed 1st graders in terms of vulnerability.

People who target children, the elderly and animals are all sick cowards who intentionally select those who can not defend themselves. That's what this guy did. He had no interest in a civil war. He harbors some kind of demons in his head.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

I love this! Posters here ask "how can he feel this way" or where did he get such views"? Hey! Anyone actually believe hatred in America is dead? It is alive and well in all facets of our decaying culture. Our once professional people are gangsters, our politicians are nothing but name callers avoiding solutions while pursuing the opponents to put all of the blame on for all the wrong in this "good ol' USA". Our youth is rotting in ignorance, schools cheat on test scores instead of taking the challenge of educating. We have long ago lost the war on drugs. Our soldiers are dying on false promises form our lying, filthy leaders pledging to get them out of harms way until they get elected. Everyone cheats and now including baseball and football entire organizations instead of players. Our incomes are shrinking while the cost of living continues to soar. Our media is riddled with murder, rape, infidelity and drug abuse. 80 million Americans own a firearm and not because they like to hunt but rather because they are feeling like the hunted and are frightened. Where did this young man get his views? Open your eyes, he simply picked are target to blame the retched state of our society and acted on it. He picked race while he could have picked many different issues. I wonder if he was a Muslim radical if race would have been the headline. Have a nice day.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

The main difference is that left wing terrorists in this country usually just attack property whereas right wing terrorists attack people.

Recently, perhaps, but historically speaking...."usually" is very inaccurate.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

You had to go back 40 or 50 years to find one or two? Were you even alive then?

The CNN article said there were 34 killings by right wing extremists since 9/11 and zero by left wing extremists.....

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...hurch-shooting-w-224-a-55.html#post1064732556

The study that CNN cites appears to be biased (not surprisingly). For example, the following attacks of terrorism are not classified as leftist:

- Murder of two police officers by political activists last seen attending "Occupier" rallies and pissed because they could not afford health care.
- Murder of four police officers by an individual known to make "revolutionary" comments and outbursts
- Ambush murder of one police officer by an individual actively affiliated with leftist groups
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

I love this! Posters here ask "how can he feel this way" or where did he get such views"? Hey! Anyone actually believe hatred in America is dead? It is alive and well in all facets of our decaying culture. Our once professional people are gangsters, our politicians are nothing but name callers avoiding solutions while pursuing the opponents to put all of the blame on for all the wrong in this "good ol' USA". Our youth is rotting in ignorance, schools cheat on test scores instead of taking the challenge of educating. We have long ago lost the war on drugs. Our soldiers are dying on false promises form our lying, filthy leaders pledging to get them out of harms way until they get elected. Everyone cheats and now including baseball and football entire organizations instead of players. Our incomes are shrinking while the cost of living continues to soar. Our media is riddled with murder, rape, infidelity and drug abuse. 80 million Americans own a firearm and not because they like to hunt but rather because they are feeling like the hunted and are frightened. Where did this young man get his views? Open your eyes, he simply picked are target to blame the retched state of our society and acted on it. He picked race while he could have picked many different issues. I wonder if he was a Muslim radical if race would have been the headline. Have a nice day.

While your post is pretty depressing, I have to say you really make a lot of excellent points.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

I love this! Posters here ask "how can he feel this way" or where did he get such views"? Hey! Anyone actually believe hatred in America is dead? It is alive and well in all facets of our decaying culture. Our once professional people are gangsters, our politicians are nothing but name callers avoiding solutions while pursuing the opponents to put all of the blame on for all the wrong in this "good ol' USA". Our youth is rotting in ignorance, schools cheat on test scores instead of taking the challenge of educating. We have long ago lost the war on drugs. Our soldiers are dying on false promises form our lying, filthy leaders pledging to get them out of harms way until they get elected. Everyone cheats and now including baseball and football entire organizations instead of players. Our incomes are shrinking while the cost of living continues to soar. Our media is riddled with murder, rape, infidelity and drug abuse. 80 million Americans own a firearm and not because they like to hunt but rather because they are feeling like the hunted and are frightened. Where did this young man get his views? Open your eyes, he simply picked are target to blame the retched state of our society and acted on it. He picked race while he could have picked many different issues. I wonder if he was a Muslim radical if race would have been the headline. Have a nice day.

Quoted for truth. Our society is filled to the rafters with people avoiding responsibility. Crappy politicians. And 0 effort to fix our culture which is sinking into a pit of vulgarity.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

And that sounds like a bunch of bigotry to me. You get nowhere in dealing with racism when you paint an entire region of your country and everyone who lives there as ingrained with, understanding, and tolerant of racism.

Well, when you equate "most" with "everyone who lives there" then there will be some misunderstanding.

It's difficult to quantify because it isn't acceptable any longer to say the n word, or express openly racist views, but racism isn't unusual at all in this area. In my lifetime, state enforced racism still existed, and those deeply racist views just simply were ingrained for centuries here and they haven't died out. Someone 60 years old (born 1955) spent their formative years in a region where racism was not only accepted it was the LAW. If you were born in the 1960s (now in your 40s or 50s) around the time of the CRA, racism was no longer the LAW, but both your white parents were almost surely racists and so that's what you almost surely learned as a child.

So it's not a stretch at all to say that "most" adults understand racism, because most of their parents, if they are over 40, were racists. The retirees who grew up here were, most of them, racists as children because that was the LAW at that time, and those laws had large majorities of support among whites. So of course there is more "understanding" and "tolerance" of at least casual racism because those older lived in a time and place where PROUD and overt racism was just the way it was in the white community.

And there simply are lots of pockets in this region that are isolated from outside influences and haven't changed a whole lot. Anyone who thinks they don't exist and represent some significant share of the white, especially rural population is just kidding themselves.

IMO, most of the problem is just ingrained ignorance as much as racism. And so where it persists in large numbers are in the still highly segregated areas, and in poor rural areas, where frankly a bunch of idiot losers and white trash need someone to look down on and blacks are the historical target. It's why if you look at any attempt to graph racism, it runs predictably in the deep South for historical reasons, and in the mountain regions stretching into the NE that is home to lots of poor whites and is nearly 100% white.
 
Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

A lot of those "Nationalist Socialists" in Europe are just that...socialists (economically). That's my point with regards to the new black panthers. Just because they may have left leaning economic views doesn't necessarily make them "leftists groups". Socially, they have far more in common with your average right winger than your average left winger.

I can see your point, though Nazi economic policies were not "socialist" in the same sense as that of the USSR, Rather, they were a form of state capitalism where almost all businesses remained in private hands and only the largest companies while they remained private, had various degrees of government over site.

This discussion over whether or not the Black Panthers were leftists illustrates that politics is not linear (right to left), but at times, it is circular with extreme left and far right blurring together. The Back Panthers, and to a lesser degree, IRA are examples of this. In addition, some political figures also blurred the boundaries:

- Huey Long: Though a populist and supportive of small and mid size capitalism, made a lot of references about restricting large businesses, banks and large scale sharecropper land holders (his family were sharecroppers)

-Father Coughlin: An anti semetic nationalist who disliked large companies for a variety of reasons including economic, social and religious.

- Vladimir Putin: The guy uses a mix of right wing nationalistic and communist imagery. Uses both ideologies as justification for aggression. The Russian government is a partial owner of most large companies and the some capitalists are both a CEO and a government official who directs economic policy.
 
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