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CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

How has it been any different. I was not the one making claims of what does or dosnt happen down there.

But you justified torture and human experimentation in post #17 by answering the question presented by stating: "By their willingness to do worse to us." . Are you saying now we cant trust these reports because we were not physically there, even though we have a boat load of classified and unclassified materials about not just what happened in Guantanamo but various other sites around the world?
 
Yep, I have no fear. Only preparedness and a lack of empathy for those captured on the battle field doing harm to our service members.

Not everyone sent to Guantanamo was captured on the battlefield. Some weren't on the battlefield, some weren't in Afghanistan, some weren't even on the same continent as the battlefield.

UK citizen went to Africa on a business trip, arrested and sent to Guantanamo, years later released without charge.
 
Not everyone sent to Guantanamo was captured on the battlefield. Some weren't on the battlefield, some weren't in Afghanistan, some weren't even on the same continent as the battlefield.

UK citizen went to Africa on a business trip, arrested and sent to Guantanamo, years later released without charge.

So? You have a name, under what circumstances?
 
But you justified torture and human experimentation in post #17 by answering the question presented by stating: "By their willingness to do worse to us." . Are you saying now we cant trust these reports because we were not physically there, even though we have a boat load of classified and unclassified materials about not just what happened in Guantanamo but various other sites around the world?

You just dont understand conversational English do you.
 
You just dont understand conversational English do you.

This isnt a conversation. Im trying to get straight answers. This is a debate. You havent answered several but instead what around simple questions and others you havent answered at all. Just trying to get straight answers..
 
CRUE's post following your illustrates what I meant. Most folks I know, most of them 'christian', don't really care about torture. If anything, they support it because it is commonly practiced on muslims.

That saddens me that you are accurate.


AS horrible as 9/11 was, what America has done in the name of patriotism since then is - imo - far worse then 9/11.

The 'war on Terror' has killed far, FAR more innocent people then 9/11 ever did and has caused directly and indirectly so much more suffering, misery and world instability.

Anyone who agrees with how America has conducted herself since 9/11 - especially on the international stage - should be ashamed of themselves.

What the 9/11 terrorists did was horrific..and what America has done in the name of the War on Terror since then is even more horrific.
 
Ahhh yes...the old 'the ends justify the means' cop out.

If torturing people is the only way America can survive...then I hope it ends.


'It's better to be dead and cool, then alive and uncool.'

was that your senior quote?

and don't worry your pretty head. every powerful country from now until the end of time will approach(and sometimes cross) the border of humane treatment when dealing with enemies. It's just part of being a powerful country. nobody's perfect.
 
That saddens me that you are accurate.


AS horrible as 9/11 was, what America has done in the name of patriotism since then is - imo - far worse then 9/11.

The 'war on Terror' has killed far, FAR more innocent people then 9/11 ever did and has caused directly and indirectly so much more suffering, misery and world instability.

Anyone who agrees with how America has conducted herself since 9/11 - especially on the international stage - should be ashamed of themselves.

What the 9/11 terrorists did was horrific..and what America has done in the name of the War on Terror since then is even more horrific.
So I am sure you wish to bash America for dropping to atom bombs on Japan as well.
 
This isnt a conversation. Im trying to get straight answers. This is a debate. You havent answered several but instead what around simple questions and others you havent answered at all. Just trying to get straight answers..
Debate is over, I told you what I think. As usual you dont like it. As usual I dont care what you think.
 
Good job being totally off base.

Why yes... yes you were.


*protip: "9/11 changed everythang....!111!!!!!" Is not a valid argument in this topic.
 
So? You have a name, under what circumstances?

Martin Mubanga. UK/Zambian joint dual citizen.

Mubanga was living with relatives, in Zambia, when he was arrested by Zambian Police, accompanied by US security officials. He was not charged with any crime in Zambia. He was transported out of Zambia without the US requesting an official extradition.

Mubanga says that when he was first arrested, in Zambia, he was interrogated by a British man who claimed he was an "MI6 official," and an American woman who told him she a "Defense official". They told him that his UK passport, which he had reported stolen, was found in an al Qaeda cave in Afghanistan. They invited him to be an undercover agent, to penetrate al Qaeda for them. When he declined, they shipped him to the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Mubanga
 
That's awfully facile. You confine yourself to a drive-by bleat, because you are afraid to lace on the gloves and climb into the ring. Instead of just asserting that what I said is sophistry, why don't you tell us specifically which points of law Jay Bybee and John Yoo got wrong, in which of their memos on this subject, and explain why you think their legal analysis of each point was incorrect? I'll tell you why--it's because you have never read a single sentence of even one of those documents, and would not have understood it if you had tried.

I have read those memos, and also quite a few others that are part of the thousands of pages of government documents on this subject. As someone who has written legal research memos on difficult subjects, I know what's involved--and the quality of the analysis of this subject by the Office of Legal Counsel is as good as it gets. Because section 2340 had only been on the books for several years, there was not even one case construing it, and that made the task of determining what constituted torture under U.S. laws even harder. But determine it Bybee and Yoo did, and having analyzed their memos pretty closely, I believe they got it right. I don't think any of the enhanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, even came very close to being torture under the law.

You do not know the first thing about this subject, so you swallow whole some witless anti-American propaganda you read in Mother Jones, or saw on MSNBC. The intellectual quality of the "analysis" by the usual lump in the lumpenproletariat is roughly this: "Woah, man, they like tortured those dudes at Gitmo really bad! Put water up their nose and s***, just for the crime of being Muslim!" Millions of these malcontent ignoramuses now infest this country, loathe it just like their fellow statist in the White House does, and are eager to believe anything bad about it. Their resentment of America gives them common cause with the Muslim jihadists who want us all dead.

I'd like once again to recommend a book by Andy McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor. Mr. McCarthy played an important role in convicting and sending to prison Abdel "The Blind Sheikh" Rahman for his part in the conspiracy that resulted in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. The title is The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America".

Actually, I do know about this subject. That, because I am familiar with the US Constitution (including 8th Amendment), I am somewhat familiar with the US Code, I am familiar with the Convention Against Torture that we signed, I am familiar with the Nuremberg trial in general terms, I was reading the news when all that sophistry was advanced by Yoo and others, and because I am very well aware of the mendacity and sophistry commonly employed by elected and unelected leaders.

Again, it appears you are supremely naïve in this regard, and probably equally gullible as to the statements of self-serving politicians.
 
That saddens me that you are accurate.


AS horrible as 9/11 was, what America has done in the name of patriotism since then is - imo - far worse then 9/11.

The 'war on Terror' has killed far, FAR more innocent people then 9/11 ever did and has caused directly and indirectly so much more suffering, misery and world instability.

Anyone who agrees with how America has conducted herself since 9/11 - especially on the international stage - should be ashamed of themselves.

What the 9/11 terrorists did was horrific..and what America has done in the name of the War on Terror since then is even more horrific.

Agreed.

What saddens me the most (as a raised Catholic but fallen away type) is that so many of my Christian friends will not condemn the torture. They accept it because it's being done mostly to muslims, and many enthusiastically support it. A very sad state of affairs IMO.
 
Agreed.

What saddens me the most (as a raised Catholic but fallen away type) is that so many of my Christian friends will not condemn the torture. They accept it because it's being done mostly to muslims, and many enthusiastically support it. A very sad state of affairs IMO.

I lost a significant amount of respect for humanity in general and America in particular after witnessing the cowardice and dishonor that the West has employed as a virtual revenge for what happened on that awful September day back in 2001.

I honestly thought America was flawed but better then that.

I was wrong...VERY wrong.
 
Pro tip, deal with fact. 9/11 did change everything.

For you maybe, not for me.

I will NEVER be okay with torture or detaining the innocent without charge or invading countries without just cause.

As I typed above, if sinking to these lows is the only way for America to survive, then let it die.
 
For you maybe, not for me.

I will NEVER be okay with torture or detaining the innocent without charge or invading countries without just cause.

As I typed above, if sinking to these lows is the only way for America to survive, then let it die.
Let America die? That's your answer? Then what? We just become some third world nation full of warring factions?
 
I lost a significant amount of respect for humanity in general and America in particular after witnessing the cowardice and dishonor that the West has employed as a virtual revenge for what happened on that awful September day back in 2001.

I honestly thought America was flawed but better then that.

I was wrong...VERY wrong.
Ah, so this is about America hate.
 
Actually, I do know about this subject. That, because I am familiar with the US Constitution (including 8th Amendment), I am somewhat familiar with the US Code, I am familiar with the Convention Against Torture that we signed, I am familiar with the Nuremberg trial in general terms, I was reading the news when all that sophistry was advanced by Yoo and others, and because I am very well aware of the mendacity and sophistry commonly employed by elected and unelected leaders.

Again, it appears you are supremely naïve in this regard, and probably equally gullible as to the statements of self-serving politicians.

You've shown you know just enough about this subject to tick off a few words you think will sound meaningful--Constitution, Eighth Amendment, U.S. Code, CAT, Nurmberg (Shrub and Darth C. were just like the Nazis, dude!), the news--and nothing more. I am sure you have never so much as glanced at a single page of the legal memos you pretend to know are sophistry, and by calling them that you only expose your own. Realizing that you don't know enough about the subject to make even one specific objection to the findings of the Office of Legal Counsel (or those of the lawyers in other federal offices that agreed with them), you try to hide the fact you have no arguments by making a lame crack about my supposed gullibility. You'd do better to consider your own.

I challenge you, again, to make specific objections to the legal findings of the OLC regarding applicable U.S. laws against torture, as they concern the enhanced interrogation techniques U.S. officials used in 2002 and 2003 to make several jihadist war criminals reveal information about Al Qaeda and its plans to murder still more Americans. Show us how much more you know more about this subject than, say, the supremely naive John Yoo, who teaches at U.C. Berkeley Law School. Use reasoned legal arguments supported by facts, instead of just regurgitating cliche anti-American propaganda against this country. We've been hearing that from the Daily Kos, Media Matters, Mother Jones, and similar sources of leftist slop for the past dozen years.
 
You are proof that fear leads people to do terrible, inhumane, and flat out evil acts.

Or perhaps, in this case, all it takes to uncover the truly evil nature of a man is the belief that he has sufficient justification to commit atrocities.
 
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For you maybe, not for me.

I will NEVER be okay with torture or detaining the innocent without charge or invading countries without just cause.

As I typed above, if sinking to these lows is the only way for America to survive, then let it die.

I agree with the first part, but for the last I would simply say that it doesn't have to die, I would recommend advocating change.
 
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