Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

stonewall50 said:

How did the event in aurora start? He had to pull the trigger. But police would have been called had he waved a gun around only. Right? Sadly this is something we have to think about now.

Was it wrong for the person to have called 911 on rice?

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The incident in Aurora started with the killer setting off a tear gas grenade and opening fire into a crowded theater. I don't know why the apologist keep making irrelevant comparisons.

Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

reinoe said:

The incident in Aurora started with the killer setting off a tear gas grenade and opening fire into a crowded theater. I don't know why the apologist keep making irrelevant comparisons.

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Did rice deserve to have the police called on him?

Oh

And evidence he was shot for being black?

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

stonewall50 said:

Did rice deserve to have the police called on him?

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Nope. Rice was a kid playing with a toy.

Oh

And evidence he was shot for being black?

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Zero evidence that this was race related.

BUT, do to the difference in behavior when police face someone black and someone of another race, we can gather that race was a factor in why Rice was shot when he was not doing anything violent.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

stonewall50 said:

How did the event in aurora start? He had to pull the trigger. But police would have been called had he waved a gun around only. Right? Sadly this is something we have to think about now.

Was it wrong for the person to have called 911 on rice?

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No, the caller did fine, he even repeatedly told them the gun was likely or possibly fake.

And in Aurora, the shooter didn't just wave a gun around - he took the gun out and started killing people. By the time police were called, he was already shooting and people were already dead. The events are just completely different in every possible way. Not sure what else to say. They both involved firearms. If the idea is any call involving a firearm SHOULD BE treated as a potential mass murder on a scale we only see once every few years, then I think that idea is nuts, ridiculous, especially now that we got open carry idiots carrying ARs over their shoulder in Target etc.



Police respond to a 911 call about these idiots like Aurora? Why not? They look scary to me - all it takes is one second and they're ready for mass slaughter in the Target!

Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

stonewall50 said:

I think you are missing the point. Look at what you said at the end: "we'd all be fine with police taking him out at the earliest opportunity."

What if he were a shooter who hadn't fired the first shot yet? He had all intentions? I'm saying that to act as if the police response was completely "unreasonable" because he was a 12 year old with a BB gun isn't exactly true. He was a 12 year old with a BB gun that looked VERY much like a firearm.

So it really isn't about the fact that he didn't have a firearm. He had the above and the above looked real. There are several facts we need to know before we can call this criminal and not negligence.

1) What did dispatch report?

2) What did rice do when police drove up?

3) Did the officer give commands that rice disobeyed?

4) Was the REAL looking BB gun visible to the officers?

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The police never had the opportunity to see if the gun were fake or real. Check the video. They could not have seen the entire toy.

This meme about the cops seeing a gun and being scared has got to stop. Rice never pulled the gun out! Watch the video!!

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

stonewall50 said:

Did rice deserve to have the police called on him?

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Of course he did

Why did the police get so close to Tamir and shoot him after dispatch told the cops the gun was fake?

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Tettsuo said:

Nope. Rice was a kid playing with a toy.


Zero evidence that this was race related.

BUT, do to the difference in behavior when police face someone black and someone of another race, we can gather that race was a factor in why Rice was shot when he was not doing anything violent.

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No one was sure that the gun was a toy....the 911 caller was not even sure if the gun was a toy. This is the price we are paying for the 2A. This problem will only get worse, since gun ownership is in overwhelming numbers. We have just as much violence concerning LE, such as what happened in Texas over the weekend. I think, knowing the neighborhood where the shooting occurred...any race would have suffered the same consequence. The neighborhood is known for gun violence. Violence and crime affects everyone...we as citizens need to decide what side we are on...who are we going to call when we need LE, a crack head or a cop? Unfortunately, through poor parenting and our current gun culture, Tamir paid the price. He will not be the last kid killed.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Nursmate said:

No one was sure that the gun was a toy....the 911 caller was not even sure if the gun was a toy. This is the price we are paying for the 2A. This problem will only get worse, since gun ownership is in overwhelming numbers. We have just as much violence concerning LE, such as what happened in Texas over the weekend. I think, knowing the neighborhood where the shooting occurred...any race would have suffered the same consequence. The neighborhood is known for gun violence. Violence and crime affects everyone...we as citizens need to decide what side we are on...who are we going to call when we need LE, a crack head or a cop? Unfortunately, through poor parenting and our current gun culture, Tamir paid the price. He will not be the last kid killed.

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Ah... so your answer is to blame the victim. Gotcha. We shouldn't look at the cops who ran up and starting shooting before even accessing the situation. We should ignore the fact that there was no immediate danger and the victim was sitting peacefully before the cops arrived. We shouldn't point to the fact that the toy was never actually drawn and bought to bare against the officers.

No, we should focus on the victim's mother.

WTF is wrong with you?

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Tettsuo said:

Ah... so your answer is to blame the victim. Gotcha. We shouldn't look at the cops who ran up and starting shooting before even accessing the situation. We should ignore the fact that there was no immediate danger and the victim was sitting peacefully before the cops arrived. We shouldn't point to the fact that the toy was never actually drawn and bought to bare against the officers.

No, we should focus on the victim's mother.

WTF is wrong with you?

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I agree with that. The interviews indicated Tamir Rice was doing well in school and the rec center and everyone else described him as a good kid with good grades and who had no record with police and otherwise behaved himself. He spent his days at the rec center, not on street corners or getting high or otherwise misbehaving. That's a pretty good result for that neighborhood. He also according to the investigation was given the gun that day. I'm not sure how his mother is supposed to know about it and caution him or order him to give it up.

And I don't really understand this: "Violence and crime affects everyone...we as citizens need to decide what side we are on...who are we going to call when we need LE, a crack head or a cop?"

I guess the presumption is we support the police killing Rice in those circumstances, OR, we prefer the neighborhood to be run by crack head gang bangers? That's the definition of a false dilemma.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Tettsuo said:

Nope. Rice was a kid playing with a toy.

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So this looks like a toy?

Zero evidence that this was race related.

BUT, do to the difference in behavior when police face someone black and someone of another race, we can gather that race was a factor in why Rice was shot when he was not doing anything violent.

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I don't think race was a factor. I think it is an excuse. No evidence. Most people don't care about race, it doesn't help that a lot of crime ends up in areas where blacks are the majority. That is a poverty thing though.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

JasperL said:

I agree with that. The interviews indicated Tamir Rice was doing well in school and the rec center and everyone else described him as a good kid with good grades and who had no record with police and otherwise behaved himself. He spent his days at the rec center, not on street corners or getting high or otherwise misbehaving. That's a pretty good result for that neighborhood. He also according to the investigation was given the gun that day. I'm not sure how his mother is supposed to know about it and caution him or order him to give it up.

And I don't really understand this: "Violence and crime affects everyone...we as citizens need to decide what side we are on...who are we going to call when we need LE, a crack head or a cop?"

I guess the presumption is we support the police killing Rice in those circumstances, OR, we prefer the neighborhood to be run by crack head gang bangers? That's the definition of a false dilemma.

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I don't think that is the message at all. I think the message is "start learning about the job and what you ask of law enforcement." Understand that they deal with unpredictable circumstances. Not an office job. This incident was tragic. But calling it murder is stupid and wrong.

I might support negligence given evidence. But murder? No.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

JasperL said:

I agree with that. The interviews indicated Tamir Rice was doing well in school and the rec center and everyone else described him as a good kid with good grades and who had no record with police and otherwise behaved himself. He spent his days at the rec center, not on street corners or getting high or otherwise misbehaving. That's a pretty good result for that neighborhood. He also according to the investigation was given the gun that day. I'm not sure how his mother is supposed to know about it and caution him or order him to give it up.

And I don't really understand this: "Violence and crime affects everyone...we as citizens need to decide what side we are on...who are we going to call when we need LE, a crack head or a cop?"

I guess the presumption is we support the police killing Rice in those circumstances, OR, we prefer the neighborhood to be run by crack head gang bangers? That's the definition of a false dilemma.

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Hes trying to bury his head in the sand because the problem is too big for him to deal with. Either you are with the cops at all times or you are siding with criminal crack heads. He doesnt want to even begin to think about cavalier cops. Its not part of his equation.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

stonewall50 said:

So this looks like a toy?

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No, it doesn't.

But, the police never saw the pistol in its entirety. At best, they saw the handle. In fact, Rice was not doing anything aggressive or threatening at the time the police arrived.

So I ask, when did the police have a chance to see the tip of the toy and thus, assume it was a real weapon?

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Tettsuo said:

Ah... so your answer is to blame the victim. Gotcha. We shouldn't look at the cops who ran up and starting shooting before even accessing the situation. We should ignore the fact that there was no immediate danger and the victim was sitting peacefully before the cops arrived. We shouldn't point to the fact that the toy was never actually drawn and bought to bare against the officers.

No, we should focus on the victim's mother.

WTF is wrong with you?

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I tell you what...when someone steals your car, or hurts one of your loved ones...call a criminal..LOL. This is not victim blaming at all...it is part of the solution to a huge problem. We can sit back and bash the folks who protect...or we can rally around the ones who are criminals. In my neighborhood, if my son was left alone, waving a gun around in my neighborhood, I would have child services called on me in a heartbeat. Tamir's Mom is getting off scott free in her role in this tragedy and will become a millionaire as well. All of these cases, with the exception of Tamir Rice, have had issues with LE..they were not choir boys . Where there is smoke there is flame. Cops are NOT going to take a chance for a person to draw on them...by then it is too late. You can't see the human error all around, because you are one of the cop witch hunters. What you promote is a lawless society where everyone loses.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

reinoe said:

Of course he did

Why did the police get so close to Tamir and shoot him after dispatch told the cops the gun was fake?

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Wow, I hadn't heard that! How do we know this reinoe?

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Nursmate said:

I tell you what...when someone steals your car, or hurts one of your loved ones...call a criminal..LOL. This is not victim blaming at all...it is part of the solution to a huge problem. We can sit back and bash the folks who protect...or we can rally around the ones who are criminals. In my neighborhood, if my son was left alone, waving a gun around in my neighborhood, I would have child services called on me in a heartbeat. Tamir's Mom is getting off scott free in her role in this tragedy and will become a millionaire as well. All of these cases, with the exception of Tamir Rice, have had issues with LE..they were not choir boys . Where there is smoke there is flame. Cops are NOT going to take a chance for a person to draw on them...by then it is too late. You can't see the human error all around, because you are one of the cop witch hunters. What you promote is a lawless society where everyone loses.

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I don't think that insisting that cops that who have violated department ethics codes, abused their vested authority, violate civil liberties, wrongfully kill people are prosecuted and held accountable, is not at all promoting a "lawless society" or "cop which hunts". The parental failure and other aspects you point to are correct, and that too needs to be addressed societally.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

stonewall50 said:

I don't think that is the message at all. I think the message is "start learning about the job and what you ask of law enforcement." Understand that they deal with unpredictable circumstances. Not an office job. This incident was tragic. But calling it murder is stupid and wrong.

I might support negligence given evidence. But murder? No.

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https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/murder

Background: Common Law Murder

At common law, murder was defined as killing another human being with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought is a legal term of art, that encompasses the following types of murder:

"Intent-to-kill murder"
"Grievous-bodily-harm murder" - Killing someone in an attack intended to cause them grievous bodily harm. For example, if a person fatally stabbed someone, even if she only intended to wound her victim, she could still be executed.
"Felony-murder" - Killing someone while in the process of committing a felony. Note that at common law, there were few felonies, and all carried the death penalty. For example, at common law, robbery was a felony. So if a robber accidentally killed someone during a robbery, the robber could be executed.
"Depraved heart murder" - Killing someone in a way that demonstrates a callous disregard for the value of human life. For example, if a person intentionally fires a gun into a crowded room, and someone dies, the person could be convicted of depraved heart murder.
These definitions are valuable because they inform subsequent reforms of American murder law.

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Manslaughter
Manslaughter is the act of killing another human being in a way that is less culpable than murder. See Homicide.

Under both the common law and the Pennsylvania Method of differentiating degrees of murder, manslaughter was divided into voluntary and involuntary manslaughter:

Voluntary manslaughter is intentionally killing another person in the heat of passion and in response to adequate provocation.
Involuntary manslaughter is negligently causing the death of another person.
Under the Model Penal Code, manslaughter includes:

Reckless homicide
Homicide that would be murder, but "is committed under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance for which there is reasonable explanation or excuse."

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Murder, absolutely.

Did the officer, or did the officer not ride up to Rice with his weapon already draw? Doesn't that give his clear intent despite him not being threaten by Rice prior to him drawing the weapon?

Was Rice threatening or attempting to cause bodily harm to the officer, to which he was forced to defend himself? Remember, the toy was never drawn or brought to bare against the officers.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Nursmate said:

I tell you what...when someone steals your car, or hurts one of your loved ones...call a criminal..LOL.

Click to expand...

Pointless hyperbole. I'll take it as it is.

This is not victim blaming at all...it is part of the solution to a huge problem.

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You provided no solutions. You clearly laid the blame at the foot of Rice's mother and society in general. But neither Rice's mother or society pulled the trigger that day. If a person does something wrong, that person should pay for their misdeed, be it an officer or a civilian.

They should not be above the law.

We can sit back and bash the folks who protect...or we can rally around the ones who are criminals.

Click to expand...

In this incident, it's the police who are the criminals. Thus, the should pay the price as any common criminal would.

In my neighborhood, if my son was left alone, waving a gun around in my neighborhood, I would have child services called on me in a heartbeat.

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He was waving around a toy. So no, your claim is completely invalid.

Tamir's Mom is getting off scott free in her role in this tragedy and will become a millionaire as well.

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Tamir's mom didn't shoot anyone. What she did was allow her child to play in a dangerous park. That's it. Otherwise, Tamir was a good kid.

All of these cases, with the exception of Tamir Rice, have had issues with LE..they were not choir boys .

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Don't cloud the issue. None of those other incidence had anything to do with Tamir Rice. Tamir himself was not a bad kid. So again, you're attempting to blame Tamir for getting shot. Now we're back to victim blaming.

Where there is smoke there is flame. Cops are NOT going to take a chance for a person to draw on them...by then it is too late. You can't see the human error all around, because you are one of the cop witch hunters. What you promote is a lawless society where everyone loses.

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Sigh... TAMIR NEVER DREW HIS TOY ON THE POLICE!

What you're promoting is a police state. I'm for equal justice under the law.

Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Tettsuo said:

No, it doesn't.

But, the police never saw the pistol in its entirety. At best, they saw the handle. In fact, Rice was not doing anything aggressive or threatening at the time the police arrived.

So I ask, when did the police have a chance to see the tip of the toy and thus, assume it was a real weapon?

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So you at least admit that they saw the handle then? That handle looks very real. Are you suggesting officers WAIT to see the tip before reacting? Not exactly smart.

Now. I think my position has been made ABUNDANTLY clear that I don't believe this was murder. I don't think the video is strong evidence for either side. It represents the constant gray that we see with these incidents. Sides taking political stances rather than factual ones. And that bothers me. These cops reacted poorly getting that close. The officer who pulled the trigger should not have been hired. There are plenty of hindsight answers.

But should police have been called? YES! I'm pro gun too. But this is a kid we are talking about. And the adult who called? They had plenty of reason to call. The kid was pointing the weapon as we saw in the video. So when police arrived...they knew a gun was on scene. There was no "looking for an orange tip." Controlling the situation is what needed to happen. And they failed at that.

This is a question of negligence or criminal action. And no way can you draw criminal action from what we know. They didn't murder this kid for being black. A rookie cop panicked and now has to have the death of this kid on his conscious for the rest of his life.

I can see the department having to shell out money. And this was a tragedy. But it is a clear case of just how important it is for departments to get the proper resources to weed out these kinds of officers. How important it is for people to know how to respond to police. There are a hundred lessons here. The only one some people seem to care about is "down with the police."

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Tettsuo said:

Pointless hyperbole. I'll take it as it is.

You provided no solutions. You clearly laid the blame at the foot of Rice's mother and society in general. But neither Rice's mother or society pulled the trigger that day. If a person does something wrong, that person should pay for their misdeed, be it an officer or a civilian.

They should not be above the law.

In this incident, it's the police who are the criminals. Thus, the should pay the price as any common criminal would.

He was waving around a toy. So no, your claim is completely invalid.

Tamir's mom didn't shoot anyone. What she did was allow her child to play in a dangerous park. That's it. Otherwise, Tamir was a good kid.

Don't cloud the issue. None of those other incidence had anything to do with Tamir Rice. Tamir himself was not a bad kid. So again, you're attempting to blame Tamir for getting shot. Now we're back to victim blaming.

Sigh... TAMIR NEVER DREW HIS TOY ON THE POLICE!

What you're promoting is a police state. I'm for equal justice under the law.

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Please just watch 6:30

And then extrapolate how officers should treat visible firearms. This is part of the reason I NEVER would open carry unless hunting.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

stonewall50 said:

So you at least admit that they saw the handle then? That handle looks very real. Are you suggesting officers WAIT to see the tip before reacting? Not exactly smart.

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I never denied they could have saw the handle.

I'm not the one bringing up the meme about the kid removing the orange tip, now am I? And on that note, how else are they going to determine if the weapon is real or not? Are officers suppose to just open fire as soon as someone moves? Your entire belief system regarding law enforcement is flawed in that case, and law enforcement becomes nothing more than fearful men and women who can't hold their **** together long enough to even assess a threat as such.

Now. I think my position has been made ABUNDANTLY clear that I don't believe this was murder. I don't think the video is strong evidence for either side. It represents the constant gray that we see with these incidents. Sides taking political stances rather than factual ones. And that bothers me. These cops reacted poorly getting that close. The officer who pulled the trigger should not have been hired. There are plenty of hindsight answers.

But should police have been called? YES! I'm pro gun too. But this is a kid we are talking about. And the adult who called? They had plenty of reason to call. The kid was pointing the weapon as we saw in the video. So when police arrived...they knew a gun was on scene. There was no "looking for an orange tip." Controlling the situation is what needed to happen. And they failed at that.

This is a question of negligence or criminal action. And no way can you draw criminal action from what we know. They didn't murder this kid for being black. A rookie cop panicked and now has to have the death of this kid on his conscious for the rest of his life.

I can see the department having to shell out money. And this was a tragedy. But it is a clear case of just how important it is for departments to get the proper resources to weed out these kinds of officers. How important it is for people to know how to respond to police. There are a hundred lessons here. The only one some people seem to care about is "down with the police."

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They murdered a kid because they were overly aggressive and rushed to violence. He posed no threat when they rolled up on him and didn't give him a chance to do anything else but die. How is that not murder? When did they give the boy an opportunity to surrender? Or it is simply that if the police think you're a threat, they can open fire as soon as they feel an inkling of danger?

You're saying the officer panicked. Are you sure? I ask because there's no way you can pull the officer's emotional state from the video. Also, nothing in said video shows the boy doing anything aggressive. We saw him lift his shirt, that's it. During that time, that faction of time, we have the police immediately open fire on him.

At best, that an example of reckless homocide.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Tettsuo said:

I never denied they could have saw the handle.

I'm not the one bringing up the meme about the kid removing the orange tip, now am I? And on that note, how else are they going to determine if the weapon is real or not? Are officers suppose to just open fire as soon as someone moves? Your entire belief system regarding law enforcement is flawed in that case, and law enforcement becomes nothing more than fearful men and women who can't hold their **** together long enough to even assess a threat as such.



They murdered a kid because they were overly aggressive and rushed to violence. He posed no threat when they rolled up on him and didn't give him a chance to do anything else but die. How is that not murder? When did they give the boy an opportunity to surrender? Or it is simply that if the police think you're a threat, they can open fire as soon as they feel an inkling of danger?

You're saying the officer panicked. Are you sure? I ask because there's no way you can pull the officer's emotional state from the video. Also, nothing in said video shows the boy doing anything aggressive. We saw him lift his shirt, that's it. During that time, that faction of time, we have the police immediately open fire on him.

At best, that an example of reckless homocide.

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No. Specifically in Ohio it would be voluntary manslaughter. This guy wasnt rolling up to kill someone. It wasn't him doing something in a fit of rage. It was too fast. And given his history on the firing line? Are you suggesting he DIDNT panic? Occam's razor. He had a history. And the boy? He had something that looked like a real firearm.

And lifting the shirt?



It is the first step to drawing a concealed firearm in the waistband. Are you suggesting it would be unreasonable to believe that an officer prone to emotional breakdowns wouldn't panic seeing a kid pulling his shirt up making a REALISTIC gun handle visible?

That is why the case for murder is stupid. The above paragraph is all the defense needs to prove and the case is sunk. All you have to do to prove negligence is that the officers acted poorly in performance of their duties. That is an easy case.

Please don't make anymore strawmen of my argument. I'm not saying officers should roll up and shoot anyone who moves. You said that. Not me. But I'm also not focusing on the fact that this was a BB gun and that he was 12. This is the real world and it isn't impossible for a 12 year old to get a real gun.

What I want to know is what came over the dispatch to the officers. What got them to drive that close to an allegedly armed person in a vehicle they should know is as bulletproof as butter. And since I just looked:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/01/cleveland_dispatcher_who_handl_1.html

"Man threatening with gun." And at no point does it seem it was mentioned "probably fake."

That means a very REAL looking gun was seen and an officer prone to crying while handling firearms...responded to a call with someone threatening with a gun. You can pose all the what ifs you want, but the above makes a slam dunk defense against murder. These are facts. You have an officer prone to emotional problems, a real looking gun, poor information, a motion that could absolutely be construed as "hostile" ESPECIALLY if a person is already emotional distraught, and the icing on the cake was as you stated "overly aggressive."

I agree with bad tactics. Poor communication. But you can't ask officers to "check for the orange tip." That is insane. And this incident was mishandled top to bottom. And it was a friggin tragedy. Don't assume my position is to defend the department or the officer. But I'm not going to call it murder. That is wrong.

Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Tettsuo said:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/murder





Murder, absolutely.

Did the officer, or did the officer not ride up to Rice with his weapon already draw? Doesn't that give his clear intent despite him not being threaten by Rice prior to him drawing the weapon?

Was Rice threatening or attempting to cause bodily harm to the officer, to which he was forced to defend himself? Remember, the toy was never drawn or brought to bare against the officers.

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Homicide =/= murder.

I will admit I didn't realize reckless homicide was a charge. It doesn't exist in my state. It is manslaughter here. And it does seem to fit that category, but it is NOT murder. Murder is a specific charge.

The office rode up with his gun drawn? Would that be a reasonable response to a "man with gun threatening" call?

Did the office respond to a "man with gun call?" Should he have been on guard already?

Remember that the kid DID pull his shirt up and expose the toy.

Again my argument isn't that they didn't screw up. It was that this is NOT murder.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

stonewall50 said:

Do you really think that someone who cries at the firing line...is going to have the best judgement during a force encounter in the real world?

Or do you think they might be prone to making panicked decisions? As you said: this isn't in a vacuum.

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Again. Irrelevant to the response that we can see was made to the gun Tamir was reaching for.

stonewall50 said:

And witness testimony DID contradict what he said.

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No. Unable to confirm does not mean contradiction.
A witness hearing more shots than fired is not a contradiction but an impossibility and speaks to their mishearing what happened.

stonewall50 said:

But it does look like the rookie was very much a Barney and not someone who could be trusted with a firearm.

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That is your own bias speaking.
What happened in the past is irrelevant to his response to the threat that Tamir presented.

That said.

I would be willing to bet that most folks who break down over relationship problems get over it and do not let is effect their duties years later.


So suggesting that such an event that happened years in the past somehow had an affected his response to the threat that Tamir presented, is absurd.

Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-ol...

Nursmate said:

I tell you what...when someone steals your car, or hurts one of your loved ones...call a criminal..LOL. This is not victim blaming at all...it is part of the solution to a huge problem. We can sit back and bash the folks who protect...or we can rally around the ones who are criminals. In my neighborhood, if my son was left alone, waving a gun around in my neighborhood, I would have child services called on me in a heartbeat. Tamir's Mom is getting off scott free in her role in this tragedy and will become a millionaire as well. All of these cases, with the exception of Tamir Rice, have had issues with LE..they were not choir boys . Where there is smoke there is flame. Cops are NOT going to take a chance for a person to draw on them...by then it is too late. You can't see the human error all around, because you are one of the cop witch hunters. What you promote is a lawless society where everyone loses.

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I've seen several references to Tamir's mom on this thread. I guess I'm unclear what the problem is with her. According to the investigation, he spent most days at the community rec center, and he was right by there when shot. What's a better option for him during the day than the community center? When I was his age, I never spent any time at home when not in school. Either riding my bike, shooting BB guns in the nearby woods, fishing, or just wandering around with friends. I had safer options outside, but that's because I grew up in a wealthier and more rural area. But given his neighborhood, where should he go, or does he have to spend all day in his room reading literature for you to approve of her parenting.

You're blaming her for him waving around what was actually a toy given to him THAT DAY. Should Bad Mom have somehow divined from her Tarot cards that he got that gun? If not how does she find out that he has the gun and warn him not to play with it? What opportunity did Bad Mom have to intervene?