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Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Walking towards a cop and reaching in one's waistband does not make someone "aggressive" in any world. It might make someone WONDER if they are aggressive, but it doesn't actually make them aggressive. Furthermore, cops aren't supposed to come into a scene like that and immediately shoot someone, ESPECIALLY IN AN OPEN CARRY STATE.

The cops ****ed up.

In a waistband covered by a shirt is concealed, not open. I still don't see what the cops did wrong, reported armed suspect reaching towards waistband and moving towards them, then shoot.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

The quality of the video isn't great but it appears that Rice notices the cop car, gets up and starts walking toward where he figures the cops are going to pull up and then gets wasted. I can't tell if he had anything in his hands when he started walking but his hands were in front of him at about waist level. He may have had his hands in his jacket pockets. At any rate, without audio I can't really tell whether he flinched before or after he got shot.

I work with images all day long so I'm not speaking from any kind of ignorance when it comes to these things. Hell, I've actually given what could be considered classes on image quality in this very forum. Any person who tries to tell you that the sheer number of artifacts, blurriness and jaggies allow for anything other than interpretation of what is going on is lying to you.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Not in an open carry state.

open carry doesn't matter if you are reaching for a gun when the cops show up.

all open carry means that you can have a gun on you in plain sight. that gun still must be holstered in a non-threatening manner.

if the cops pull up and you reach for your gun then they will take that as a hostile intent and open carry doesn't matter.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

In a waistband covered by a shirt is concealed, not open. I still don't see what the cops did wrong, reported armed suspect reaching towards waistband and moving towards them, then shoot.
Well, let me get a 30 year veteran police officer explain it to you since I don't have the patience.

Hubert Williams, 30-year police veteran and former president of the Police Foundation, said Garmback should not have pulled the police car so close to where Tamir was standing if they believed he was armed -- as they were told by a 9-1-1 dispatcher.

By doing so, Garmback put Loehmann in a more vulnerable position to be shot by Tamir, in turn making it more likely that he would fire his own gun in self-defense, Williams said.

"Pulling up to a scene where an individual had a gun is somewhat problematic," Williams said. "If a guy has a real gun, you're definitely pulling into the line of fire."

...

Williams said approaching Tamir from a distance would have not only put the officers at an advantage for firing at Tamir if he was a threat to them, but also would have given them an opportunity to communicate with the boy.

"It occurred too soon, and that's going to be the biggest problem that the city of Cleveland is going to be faced with," said Williams.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Well, let me get a 30 year veteran police officer explain it to you since I don't have the patience.

I disagree with him. For one, the biggest problem for the city is a cop shot not only a black, but also a kid. Beyond that has no bearing to the race baiters and cop haters. Whether he pulled up too close or not has no bearing on the legitimacy of the shoot.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I work with images all day long so I'm not speaking from any kind of ignorance when it comes to these things. Hell, I've actually given what could be considered classes on image quality in this very forum. Any person who tries to tell you that the sheer number of artifacts, blurriness and jaggies allow for anything other than interpretation of what is going on is lying to you.
And in this case you are speaking nonsense.
The previously linked image showed it was the gun he was in possession of.

Other images available show him pointing the gun as well.

All you have is nonsense.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I disagree with him. For one, the biggest problem for the city is a cop shot not only a black, but also a kid. Beyond that has no bearing to the race baiters and cop haters.
I don't what this has to do with whether or not the officers did anything wrong so I'll just skip it.

Whether he pulled up too close or not has no bearing on the legitimacy of the shoot.
False. Let me get a judge to explain why since I have little patience:

The judge said Tamir was given “little if any time” to respond to any commands from the officers, that his arms were not raised, and that he made no “furtive movement”.

Tamir Rice: judge finds cause for murder charge over police killing of 12-year-old | US news | The Guardian
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I would have shot him too. You tell me you can tell the difference between the gun the kid was holding a real one fast enough not to get yourself killed?
I call BS if you think you can.

Suppose, as some here have suggested, the cops would have called to the youth from a distance with their loud speaker telling him to drop the gun or, whatever ultimatum they wanted to affix to it, and he had dropped it on the ground and stepped back away from it an acceptable distance? This child would still be with us, and would have learned one hell of a lesson. Speak to that CC.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Well, let me get a 30 year veteran police officer explain it to you since I don't have the patience.

that is his opinion he wasn't in the situation nor was he there. so hindset of what should have been done is 20/20.
being in that situation at that moment is completely different.

also putting a gun in your waste band underneath a shirt is considered concealed and is illegal without a permit.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Suppose, as some here have suggested, the cops would have called to the youth from a distance with their loud speaker telling him to drop the gun or, whatever ultimatum they wanted to affix to it, and he had dropped it on the ground and stepped back away from it an acceptable distance? This child would still be with us, and would have learned one hell of a lesson. Speak to that CC.

Had the kid not been trying to intimidate people with a fake gun. had he not been in a public place pointing it around the child would still be with us.
speak to that monecresto.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I don't what this has to do with whether or not the officers did anything wrong so I'll just skip it.


False. Let me get a judge to explain why since I have little patience:

again that is the judges opinion. that doesn't mean the judge is correct. the GJ will decide if there is enough evidence to prosecute and given the video I don't see how they will be able to.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Moderator's Warning:
Personal insults and flaming stops now
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Not in an open carry state.
A gun in a waistband covered by a shirt is not an open carry...it is a concealed weapon.

And for all the daisies and lollipops...you arent talking about an innocent citizen responsibly carrying a weapon in a legal open carry manner. You are talking about a criminal that has been seen on videotape threatening and terrorizing citizens in a park with a drawn weapon. Your refusal to present the situation honestly fully exposes your bias.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Well, let me get a 30 year veteran police officer explain it to you since I don't have the patience.
So the driver is 'guilty' of pulling up too close to a suspect? Thats not exactly worthy of a 'murder' charge.

And how does that description by the 30 year veteran regarding the driving habits of one cop resolve the question of open carry vs concealed carry?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Not every move, just (in this case) shooting kids armed with BB guns, then standing around for 4 minutes without administering first aid.



We give police officers the authority to violate our liberties, arrest us, imprison us, and to use deadly force. It seems appropriate and necessary for the public to hold them accountable, especially when they use force (deadly or otherwise) against citizens and residents. If they object to being held accountable by the public and their elected representatives, I'd advise them to not let the door hit them on the ass on the way out. Good riddance.

Police Officers, from my understanding, are not trained to assist medically. CPR BLS at the most. If Tamir was breathing and he was alive when he arrived at the hospital, there is really anything a cop can do beyond that. The ambulance arrived in 8 minutes. I think the two officers flipped out after the shooting from shock. The shooter vomited behind the police car after he realized he actually shot him. I think we need to perform better screenings upon hire, to make sure that they are prepared for the job. Police officers are terrified to go on a call in certain areas...some change needs to happen there as well. There is blame to go all round...with our current police focus.
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

I think we need to perform better screenings upon hire, to make sure that they are prepared for the job. Police officers are terrified to go on a call in certain areas...some change needs to happen there as well.

1) the shooter did not under go basic background screening. He was previously deemed unfit for service.

2) If cops can't do their jobs because they're afraid then they should resign.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Suppose, as some here have suggested, the cops would have called to the youth from a distance with their loud speaker telling him to drop the gun or, whatever ultimatum they wanted to affix to it, and he had dropped it on the ground and stepped back away from it an acceptable distance? This child would still be with us, and would have learned one hell of a lesson. Speak to that CC.

Monday morning quarterbacking is meaningless. Hind sight is always 20/20.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Suppose, as some here have suggested, the cops would have called to the youth from a distance with their loud speaker telling him to drop the gun or, whatever ultimatum they wanted to affix to it, and he had dropped it on the ground and stepped back away from it an acceptable distance? This child would still be with us, and would have learned one hell of a lesson. Speak to that CC.[/QU

I agree....most cops would have done that for safety. They rolled up so close, they could have been shot if this was a true loony gunman. The cop that shot him had a horrible record with his previous PD and should have never been hired to work that location where Tamir was shot. He was shaking in his shoes and hyped up by the 911 call. The cop cried during his gun range training....immature and unstable. Check out this article:

Cleveland officer who killed Tamir Rice had been deemed unfit for duty - LA Times
 
Re: Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:

1) the shooter did not under go basic background screening. He was previously deemed unfit for service.

2) If cops can't do their jobs because they're afraid then they should resign.

I agree...and I think many have been hired when they should not have been. Moving forward, we need to screen them before they enter the police academy to ensure that they have the personality for the job. I also think the police departments should regionalize and rotate them through different departments, a month in the burbs, a month inner city. etc... It is easy to sit back from the easy seats and make statements of what they should or should not do, but until you have had a gun drawn on you, or been spit upon, told to F off 50 times a shift, rocks thrown at your car, call after call of sheer stupidity with domestic issues, etc...you can't really judge them.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Monday morning quarterbacking is meaningless. Hind sight is always 20/20.

Crue! Ya let me down big time. I at least figured I'd get some attempt at an answer.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Iduring a grand jury t's just the prosecutor presenting evidence in front of a jury and the procedure is secret. So a cop friendly prosecutor can just flub the case and call it a day.

I don't know what a "cop-friendly" prosecutor is, but a prosecutor, just like any other lawyer, can get disciplined for violating his professional responsibility. As I recall, the district attorney in the case involving the lacrosse players at Duke was disbarred for that reason. Like the disgraceful woman prosecutor in the Baltimore case recently, he was grossly overcharging and otherwise grandstanding out of personal ambition, and the integrity of the law be damned.

I also don't know how a D.A. would "flub" a grand jury proceeding. If there were reason to believe the police had purposely made a slipshod investigation to cover up misconduct, and the district attorney had conspired in it, the state attorney general's office could make its own investigation, and even the U.S. Justice Dept. might get involved. Police officials who pull stunts like that are asking to end up in prison.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

[QUOTE=

Oh dear. See this has become a major problem. Surely the GJ will be privy to this info. Does it surprise you that the DP resident cops continue to defend all manor of police excess. I really don't think they believe cops can ever fail on the job, EVER!
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I don't know what a "cop-friendly" prosecutor is, but a prosecutor, just like any other lawyer, can get disciplined for violating his professional responsibility. As I recall, the district attorney in the case involving the lacrosse players at Duke was disbarred for that reason. Like the disgraceful woman prosecutor in the Baltimore case recently, he was grossly overcharging and otherwise grandstanding out of personal ambition, and the integrity of the law be damned.

I also don't know how a D.A. would "flub" a grand jury proceeding. If there were reason to believe the police had purposely made a slipshod investigation to cover up misconduct, and the district attorney had conspired in it, the state attorney general's office could make its own investigation, and even the U.S. Justice Dept. might get involved. Police officials who pull stunts like that are asking to end up in prison.


You aren't this naive.

Grand Jury's are prosecution tools. The prosecutor decides what they see and no one is there to challenge anything the prosecutor says. It isn't a finder of fact. It simply decides whether there cause to proceed with a trial. And that is based completely in what the prosecutor presents.

The proceedings further are secret. Virtually no on sees what goes on.

If a prosecutor wants an indictment he'll probably get it. Conversely if he doesn't want one he probably won't.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

While I commend your faith in the legal system, I don't share your sunny view of the world because of how many people have been released after spending 20+ years in prisons thanks to grand juries, corrupt police departments and biased judges.

If I have a positive view, it is not because I am naive. As a lawyer, I know enough about the legal system not to be gulled by propaganda designed to paint the United States out as an awful place whose basic institutions are rotten to the core, and where you have to be rich, white, etc. to get a fair deal. I got sick and tired many years ago of hearing that garbage from malcontents who resent this country--but not so much that they don't choose to live here.

Any system of criminal justice, however good, will inevitably imprison some innocent people. Some of those innocent people will inevitably serve long terms. But it is the very fact instances of that are so rare that they become such sensational stories when they do come to light. Most people jailed for crimes got what they deserved--and a great many who are in fact guilty go free because it was not possible to prove they were also legally guilty. Proving crimes in court is an elaborate process in which a great many things must be done just right, and everything is purposely weighted in favor of the defendant.

Corrupt police departments exist mostly in detective novels and old movies. With the federal government as involved in state and local affairs as it is today, there is far less of that kind of thing, and any police chief who scoffs at the law in any way is not likely to get away with it for long. Reporters love to expose misconduct like that. Any any private citizen who knows about it can report it to the state attorney general's office or the nearest U.S. Attorney's office. Both the L.A.P.D. and the L.A. Sheriff's Dept. have more than once been the subject of Justice Dept. investigations and oversight.

Judges have their own code of professional responsibility. Here in California there is a Code of Judicial Ethics, and the authorities who enforce it take it very seriously. It requires a judge who is biased in a case to disqualify himself. I think accusations of bias often come from lawyers who lost the case by not handling it well or by doing things that antagonized the judge. Even when antagonized, though, trial judges have to be pretty impartial. Any of them who rules arbitrarily is asking to get overturned on appeal--something trial judges would rather avoid.
 
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Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

If I have a positive view, it is not because I am naive. As a lawyer, I know enough about the legal system not to be gulled by propaganda designed to paint the United States out as an awful place whose basic institutions are rotten to the core, and where you have to be rich, white, etc. to get a fair deal. I got sick and tired many years ago of hearing that garbage from malcontents who resent this country--but not so much that they don't choose to live here.

Any system of criminal justice, however good, will inevitably imprison some innocent people. Some of those innocent people will inevitably serve long terms. But it is the very fact instances of that are so rare that they become such sensational stories when they do come to light. Most people jailed for crimes got what they deserved--and a great many who are in fact guilty go free because it was not possible to prove they were also legally guilty. Proving crimes in court is an elaborate process in which a great many things must be done just right, and everything is purposely weighted in favor of the defendant.

Corrupt police departments exist mostly in detective novels and old movies. With the federal government as involved in state and local affairs as it is today, there is far less of that kind of thing, and any police chief who scoffs at the law in any way is not likely to get away with it for long. Reporters love to expose misconduct like that. Any any private citizen who knows about it can report it to the state attorney general's office or the nearest U.S. Attorney's office. Both the L.A.P.D. and the L.A. Sheriff's Dept. have more than once been the subject of Justice Dept. investigations and oversight.

Judges have their own code of professional responsibility. Here in California there is a Code of Judicial Ethics, and the authorities who enforce it take it very seriously. It requires a judge who is biased in a case to disqualify himself. I think accusations of bias often come from lawyers who lost the case by not handling it well or by doing things that antagonized the judge. Even when antagonized, though, trial judges have to be pretty impartial. Any of them who rules arbitrarily is asking to get overturned on appeal--something trial judges would rather avoid.

I concur with this assessment
 
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