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Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Reaching for your gun is a lethal threat.

You dont know if someone is reaching for a gun. Until their hand touches a gun.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Like I said before, proof is for trials where all the evidence can be presented. What's at issue right now is whether a trial is warranted or not and, based on what has thus far been presented, there is absolutely reasonable cause to send this sucker to trial.

no there isn't, and the grand jury will probably come back with that there is not enough evidence to support that conclusion either.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I wonder why cops are so gun-ho now days....

When their recruitment ads look like they are trying to recruit people who are too scared to join the military but still get to shoot stuff.



Join your local police army today! And maybe someone will give you an excuse to legally shoot them.

Lol they even have a little warhawk on their badge! lololol
As soon as you went 'there' you might as well have LITERALLY held up a white flag of surrender.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I am not sure what you are saying. According to the article linked to in the OP, Ohio law authorizes private citizens to petition a judge to recommend that a person be indicted for certain crimes. That is what this municipal court judge did, but his power is only advisory. The article says the District Attorney intends to use a grand jury, as his office usually has in cases like this.

Yep and there is nothing in the video that would cause the grand jury to send this to a trial. if they do then it is all political and not anything other than that.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

He wasn't holding any gun. There was no chance for the police to see if it was real because he never actually pulled the gun out. He was shot.

That vid is not good enough for you to see any of that.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

The second he jumped up, raised his shirt, and reached for the weapon, he gave the cops every reason to shoot him.

That's true. What you're failing to acknowledge is that the cops are the ones who created the exigent circumstances. There was ample opportunity to handle the incident in a less aggressive manner and the cops chose not to.

Look, for the sake of argument, if the cops had pulled up 50' away from him and ordered him to put his hands up and then the kid reached for the gun I'd be on their side. If the kid had the gun out and was pointing it at someone else in the area when they pulled up I'd be OK with the tactic that they used but neither of those scenarios is what actually happened.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

No...its not and you just advocated that a man be killed in cold blood for playing with a toy.
I didn't know Tamir Rice was in a crowded room and threatened to kill everyone! How did the squad car get into the building?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Right because citizens should accept that the police state has the right to kill us and if we protest their use of deadly force they should walk off the job. Freedom and liberty!

Good luck fighting off the criminals.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

No...its not and you just advocated that a man be killed in cold blood for playing with a toy.

Then don't make toys look like real guns.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

But you can't tell from the video that he reached for the gun, pulled anything out, instead of reaching for his phone or pulling up his pants.

And if you'll kill someone on mere suspicion, I hope you don't have a carry permit. It's why I'm not a big fan - people armed and ready to kill because they think there MIGHT be a threat is not my idea of a good thing.

sure you can. you can see him pull up his shirt and reach for his belt.
You attempting to pull a gun in your pants out is considered a threat. there is no might about it.


The caller said several times it might be fake. I hope you stay away from playgrounds. Kids playing cops and robbers and you might have to take out the whole kindergarten class.

might be fake is irrelevant and the police can't go on might. they have to take the call at face value. there is a guy in the park pointing a gun in different directions.
and now the strawman occurs. way to make an invalid point.

And you know he was reaching for a gun how?
You can see it in the video him reaching for his belt.

Let's assume you've got a gun in a shoulder holster. Do I get to assume that when you're reaching into your inner jacket pocket you're reaching for a gun and blow you away cause I'm skeered? Or should the standard be you pose an actual threat, pull the gun, threaten me, yell at me, something to indicate your intention is to 1) pull your gun and 2) use it to kill me? Women who carry a gun in their purse. What standard do I use to shoot them - when they put their hand in the purse or when they pull out a gun? Etc.....

again your strawmans and stacked hypotheticals don't hold up. you can't shot me for just having a gun in a holster. I have to be showing some kind of threat.
IE if we are arguing and I reach into my jacket and you see it then yes.

this kid was pulling the gun and pointing it in random directions that can be seeing in the video.

Why is their safety key, and not the civilians they're job is to protect?

they were protecting the other people in the park from someone randomly pointing a gun at them.


They shot the kid with the intent to kill, then stood around for 4 minutes watching him die. How would an execution be any different?

prove they shot him with the intent to kill you bias is getting in the way of reason and logic. they didn't stand around 4 minutes.
they called in an ambulance and he died in the hospital from the wound.

it wasn't an execution that is simply an appeal to emotion argument.

Fake guns, guns that the caller suspected and told 911 she thought were fake.

the police can't take that on her word. nor should they. it wasn't a fake gun it was a bb gun. while not life threatening can still cause injury to other people if they are shot with it.
the fact is they can't take someone's word that it is a fake gun.

more so when the person isn't sure.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Then don't make toys look like real guns.

most toys guns are required by law to have an orange tip on it. bb guns are the exception for some reason.
they are not required to have an orange tip.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

You dont know if someone is reaching for a gun. Until their hand touches a gun.
You do not know if his hand was on it or not.

And secondly, for you and your partner's safety you do not take the chance.

If it was an assumption on their part it was a reasonable one.

As for Tamir. The video shows his shirt being disturbed.
I am guessing that you think he was hiding the gun under the shirt and then pulling up his shirt instead of his grabbing the gun he placed in his waistband disturbing his shirt as he was pulling it out.

The second would coincide with the supposed Officer's account more so than the first.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

the ABC news here in Cincinnati- (running late due to the GSW's beatdown of the Cavs in Cleveland) is reporting that the prosecutor is going to take the case to the grand jury. apparently the Muni-judge cannot force prosecution


The statute apparently has no teeth. The judge can make the ruling but there's nothing there to back it up. Kind of strange........
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

most toys guns are required by law to have an orange tip on it. bb guns are the exception for some reason.
they are not required to have an orange tip.

Yes, but those tips are easily removed or painted over.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

You are reaching for something that does not apply.
That does not supersede the Officer's legal ability to respond to the threat that Tamir's going for the gun was.
At no point was responding with lethal force to that lethal threat reckless.

If the cops are going to claim self defense then they will need to prove that they had no way to escape the danger presented by Mr. Rice except by using deadly force. That's going to be a mighty tough hill to climb when they knowingly and willfully put themselves in such a position.

This article - Expanded Stand Your Ground Proposed In Ohio - NBC4i: Columbus, Ohio News, Weather and Sports (WCMH-TV) - explains in layman's terms how self defense works in Ohio.
A Columbus attorney who specializes in 2nd Amendment laws said the present self defense law for using deadly force has three conditions:

1. You must not have picked a fight.
2. There is a real belief the you are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm and that the use of deadly force was the only way to escape danger.
3. If you can escape or retreat, you must do so. The new proposed law could do away with the language referring to the duty to retreat.

The way the cops approached Rice is the equivalent of "picking a fight". The cops may have had reason to believe that Rice was a danger before they approached but, since the weapon was not in his hands, the danger was not imminent. Again, the opportunity existed to handle the situation in a less aggressive manner and they chose not to so any claim of self defense is going to be iffy at best.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Why? A common surrendering tactic is to raise your shirt up so people can see you dont have a weapon. A person is not a threat unless they have their hands on the weapon. When you have your gun trained on them in advance then 0.1 seconds of advantage is all you need.

If the cops tell you to put your hands up and you go for your waist that's a really, really bad plan.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Aren't you once again defending cops without even seeing the video?

No actually. You haven't read what I've written. I HAVE been making an argument for what kinds of charges should be filed. Aren't you once again making assumptions and using your bias to sling baseless claims at police because of your unabashed and almost irrationally phobic hatred of law enforcement?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

If the cops tell you to put your hands up and you go for your waist that's a really, really bad plan.

True. But if you see a cop before he tells you to hold hands up and raise your shirt so they can see your beltline and stand there its surrendering. Probably not a smart way of surrendering, i usually only see it before people start a "honorable" fist fight so they can show they dont have a weapon but ive seen people lift their shirt up halfway when allowing a cop to approach them. Its like the "gangsters" way of saying "look im passive".

Whenever a cop targets me I either put my hands open and facing up on the steering wheel or away from the core of my body. Just because i know how paranoid some of them are.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Plus from what I remember wasn't the police report of the incident completely different than what the video shows happening? I'll have to pull it up later since I don't have time now.

THAT is worthy of criminal charges more than anything. An accident is bad. A scandal to cover it up is even worse. And I am saying "accident." I haven't been able to watch the video. I will watch when I get off work. Thanks for posting btw.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

No...its not and you just advocated that a man be killed in cold blood for playing with a toy.

No. I advocated that someone be killed for creating a situation where any reasonable person would have cause to fear for their life.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

If the cops are going to claim self defense then they will need to prove that they had no way to escape the danger presented by Mr. Rice except by using deadly force. That's going to be a mighty tough hill to climb when they knowingly and willfully put themselves in such a position.

That doesn't apply to the police. They have the responsibility to use deadly force to prevent harm to themselves or others.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I dont get why all these cops just let the shot person lay there and bleed out. They dont even attempt to staunch the wounds and put pressure or do cpr if there is no breathing or heartbeat. Its like they have absolutely zero empathy. If I was a cop and some criminal pointed a gun at me, and I had to shoot him, i would STILL tend to their wounds after i removed the weapon. But these cops just stand around and let the people bleed out. Pretty much confirming their disregard.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

That doesn't apply to the police. They have the responsibility to use deadly force to prevent harm to themselves or others.

That's not true. Cops have to abide by the same rules everyone else does and their use of force has to meet the same standards as a civilian. Cops have arrest and apprehension privileges that civilians do not so there is more flexibility in scenarios where they might be required to use force but they are not exempt from the law.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

sure you can. you can see him pull up his shirt and reach for his belt.
You attempting to pull a gun in your pants out is considered a threat. there is no might about it.

For his belt? If so that's not a threat... That's my point. If you watch the longer video, I can't tell the difference between him reaching for his gun and when he reached for his PHONE.

might be fake is irrelevant and the police can't go on might. they have to take the call at face value. there is a guy in the park pointing a gun in different directions.
and now the strawman occurs. way to make an invalid point.

At face value means the caller repeatedly said the gun is possibly/likely fake. There were not shots fired, no reports of assault, no reports of rape or murder. Someone waiving what is possibly/probably a fake gun was the call.

The kindergarten comment was sarcasm, as you know. The sideways point is kids point fake guns at other people all the time, from a very young age. It's not a good idea and probably frowned upon these days, but it's not a capital offense.

You can see it in the video him reaching for his belt.

Belt? Or pocket? Pulling up his drawers? Reaching for the gun to show them it's fake? We don't know, and the police didn't have time to do anything but shoot and kill him.
again your strawmans and stacked hypotheticals don't hold up. you can't shot me for just having a gun in a holster. I have to be showing some kind of threat.
IE if we are arguing and I reach into my jacket and you see it then yes.

What threat did the kid communicate to the cops that is more serious than you reaching inside your jacket? If the cops roll up on you and you reach for your ID, then they should, according to your theory, shoot you in the chest and kill you.

this kid was pulling the gun and pointing it in random directions that can be seeing in the video.

But he'd been sitting at the table for several minutes, and the cops didn't review the video, so didn't see any of that. They had a report that said he was pointing what is probably/possibly a fake gun.

they were protecting the other people in the park from someone randomly pointing a gun at them.

There was no one nearby when they killed Rice, he was pointing at no one when he was killed.

And I thought you said the police's own safety was key. Now it's bystanders? OK, but what threat did he pose at that moment to anyone?

prove they shot him with the intent to kill you bias is getting in the way of reason and logic. they didn't stand around 4 minutes.
they called in an ambulance and he died in the hospital from the wound.

Of course they shot with the intent to kill. That's what they're trained to do.

The reports are they administered no first aid, no CPR. That didn't happen until the FBI agent arrived, who did both, before the ambulance arrived. They did wrestle his distraught sister to the ground and put her in handcuffs, though!

the police can't take that on her word. nor should they. it wasn't a fake gun it was a bb gun. while not life threatening can still cause injury to other people if they are shot with it.
the fact is they can't take someone's word that it is a fake gun.

No, but if they suspect it's fake it absolutely changes the acceptable options. You're demanding they use no common sense and treat all threats the same.

Call about multiple gunshots, person down feared dead, suspect was last seen at so and so park is just NOT THE SAME AS "hey, there's this person waving around a gun, I think it might be fake, but he's scaring people." Those are not equivalent situations and treating them as such is a failure of their duty.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I dont get why all these cops just let the shot person lay there and bleed out. They dont even attempt to staunch the wounds and put pressure or do cpr if there is no breathing or heartbeat. Its like they have absolutely zero empathy. If I was a cop and some criminal pointed a gun at me, and I had to shoot him, i would STILL tend to their wounds after i removed the weapon. But these cops just stand around and let the people bleed out. Pretty much confirming their disregard.

Cops get a thrill from watching children bleed to death on the floor.
 
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