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Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

It wasn't premeditated but from what I saw the cop rolled up right on top of the kid and started pulling the trigger. It may have been the worst display of tactics I have ever seen. There was no attempt to diffuse the situation and, as far as I could tell, nobody else was in the immediate vicinity so there wasn't an imminent threat to public safety.

Still doesn't make it murder given the circumstances. Just like we found in the Zimmerman case...stupidity does not equate to murder. I'm guessing this is manslaughter.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

No, that came when the perp reached for his weapon.

There was no perp because there was no crime being perpetrated. You're having trouble with definitions again. :roll:
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Hyperbole much?

1. It was a 12 year old kid.

2. It was not a real gun, rather a BB gun which is legal.

3. The kid was just doing as kids do, playing.

4. The kid was not breaking the law.
WHat in what i said was hyperbole? Was he in fact walking up and down the sidewalk terrorizing people to the point that it was called in to the police? Did the police respond to a "man with a gun" call? Did he in fact jump up when the cops arrived and raise his shirt and reach for his weapon?

The police should stop responding to calls til after everything is nice and clear. Then go in and take statements and investigate.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Still doesn't make it murder given the circumstances. Just like we found in the Zimmerman case...stupidity does not equate to murder. I'm guessing this is manslaughter.

If I'm reading Ohio murder statutes correctly then they could come up with a first degree (Aggravated Murder) charge as Rice was under the age of 13. They would need to prove that the cops actions were intentional and that may be difficult. However, if this gets in front of a jury I figure that Reckless Homicide is a given.

You also mentioned Zimmerman and I just want to note that his situation was somewhat different in that he had no idea that he was going into a potentially deadly situation. That's a significant distinction.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

they didn't now it was a bb gun. the kid had removed the orange signal tip to show that it was a bb gun. without the tip it really does look a like 1911 colt.
I hope you would use more logic in your posts on things like this.

the cops can't tell at a distance more so with it in his pants that it is a bb gun. if you look at the gun itself it looks very real.
and a 45 cal gun is nothing to sneeze at. it can do some serious damage.

The police never saw the tip, because Tamir Rice never withdrew the toy from within his waistband. So your point is moot.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

The kid was reaching as the Officer said he was, which is an imminent threat.
His response to a lethal threat with lethal force was appropriate, as such his life should not be put in jeopardy for acting appropriately.

As for the way the driver approached. And? That may or may be a reason to give him more training, but does not negate the other Officer's correct action in responding to the threat.

Bull****. This wasn't legal by any means. The cop drove up and shot no questions asked.

You'll be amazed at how many 12 year olds will listen to an authority figure as compared to a more defiant adult.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

The police never saw the tip, because Tamir Rice never withdrew the toy from within his waistband. So your point is moot.

Lol, also the gun wasn't even his and the orange tip had been removed before it was given to him. Ludin's just flat out lying and it's absolutely funny watching people circle wagons around his lies.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

If I'm reading Ohio murder statutes correctly then they could come up with a first degree (Aggravated Murder) charge as Rice was under the age of 13. They would need to prove that the cops actions were intentional and that may be difficult. However, if this gets in front of a jury I figure that Reckless Homicide is a given.

You also mentioned Zimmerman and I just want to note that his situation was somewhat different in that he had no idea that he was going into a potentially deadly situation. That's a significant distinction.

Sure. I am more referring to the whole making a stupid decision thing. Or a stupid assumption.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Bull****. This wasn't legal by any means. The cop drove up and shot no questions asked.

You'll be amazed at how many 12 year olds will listen to an authority figure as compared to a more defiant adult.

Again if all comes down to the video really. I still can't pull it up. I haven't been to a computer yet though. They block it at my office. But if the kid make actions reaching for the weapon...well the officer has a right to be worried.

This stuff is very convoluted. The gun damn sure looked real to me.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Again if all comes down to the video really. I still can't pull it up. I haven't been to a computer yet though. They block it at my office. But if the kid make actions reaching for the weapon...well the officer has a right to be worried.

This stuff is very convoluted. The gun damn sure looked real to me.

Question - If the police were so terrified, why did they roll up so close to the boy? Couldn't they simply stop a few yards away and yell out for the boy to drop the supposed firearm?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Question - If the police were so terrified, why did they roll up so close to the boy? Couldn't they simply stop a few yards away and yell out for the boy to drop the supposed firearm?

Exactly. I know here police cars have loudspeakers for just that reason can't say for sure if that car had it or not but yelling would have been just as effective instead of just pulling up and shooting.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Yea. That damn sure looks real. And in the time of mass shootings being common? I would understand being paranoid about it. But then again...game wardens approach armed people all the time without shooting them.

Maybe we should stop hiring cops who have never fired a gun before?

People have been shot and killed for pulling a cell phone before. All this of late has taught me to be prepared to behave differently then in the past if I ever have an interaction with police, even if its just a traffic issue.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Again if all comes down to the video really. I still can't pull it up. I haven't been to a computer yet though. They block it at my office. But if the kid make actions reaching for the weapon...well the officer has a right to be worried.

This stuff is very convoluted. The gun damn sure looked real to me.

If you haven't seen the video, what exactly are you commenting on with such assurance?

The only weapons are the ones the police are carrying.

The boy went to lift his shirt and was shot immediately. Is that all the time given to drop a weapon? If so, is that enough time for anyone to actually do so?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Lets hope citizens stop calling in complaints about thugs with guns terrorizing people in parks, and lets hope if citizens DO call those complaints in the cops refuse to respond. That way, when they kid that is on video walking up and down the sidewalk terrorizing citizens with what looks like a very real gun gets approached by cops the kid doesnt jump up and raise his shirt and reach for what the police were told is a gun and get shot.

Wow, that's bizarre.

The thing is if it was your kid you'd be outraged, and rightly so. But it's some other kid, so f'em right? Cops don't have time to figure shiate out, shoot the kids dead and let god sort it out.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

The police never saw the tip, because Tamir Rice never withdrew the toy from within his waistband. So your point is moot.


so, according to you, the police should have let tamir actually pull the weapon, and then what?

he was going for a weapon? yes or no?

do you abdicate the person actually pointing it at a cop before the officer can respond?

is that what you are saying?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

so, according to you, the police should have let tamir actually pull the weapon, and then what?

he was going for a weapon? yes or no?

do you abdicate the person actually pointing it at a cop before the officer can respond?

is that what you are saying?

First, there was no weapon in Tamir Rice's possession.

2nd, Tamir Rice didn't have time to draw or drop the toy. The police didn't know if he was going to draw his weapon or drop it on the ground. He never had time to do anything BUT die. In fact, they didn't even give him time to show the tip and therefore see if it's a toy or not.

So to answer your question, yes. Give him time to relinquish the "weapon".

3rd, you and others keep repeating the lie that Tamir Rice pointed the toy at the officers. He never actually pointed anything at the officers. The other lie is to continue to call the toy he was holding a weapon. It was not a weapon, even though it looked like one.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Question - If the police were so terrified, why did they roll up so close to the boy? Couldn't they simply stop a few yards away and yell out for the boy to drop the supposed firearm?

Depends. I wonder if they know the difference between cover and concealment and just how ****ty a car is for cover?

Tell me...do you think they decided to execute this kid? Or do you think they were being jumpy morons? It is important to think about that. A dumbass rookie may do something stupid...but just because it is a 12 year old kid...doesn't erase the very real looking gun. Would you be shocked to hear a story about a kid firing shots at officers?

You can't decide guilt based on what should have been done. Only what was done.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

From the link in the op.

“We are very much relieved and it is a step towards procedural justice and people having access to their government,” Madison told the Guardian.

The judge’s finding followed community leaders taking advantage of a little-known law to appeal directly to the judge to commence a prosecution of the officer, as is permitted in Ohio and a few other states.

“State law does provide an avenue for a private citizen having knowledge of facts to initiate the criminal process,” Adrine wrote in his order.

Madison said the judge’s finding showed “the police are public servants and not the public’s master”.
That in no way shows what you claimed. Especially as the Judge totally ignored what was on the known video unless it was illegally edited, which I would not put beyond a possibility being that the lawyer was Crump.
 
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Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

First, there was no weapon in Tamir Rice's possession.

2nd, Tamir Rice didn't have time to draw or drop the toy. The police didn't know if he was going to draw his weapon or drop it on the ground. He never had time to do anything BUT die. In fact, they didn't even give him time to show the tip and therefore see if it's a toy or not.

So to answer your question, yes. Give him time to relinquish the "weapon".

3rd, you and others keep repeating the lie that Tamir Rice pointed the toy at the officers. He never actually pointed anything at the officers. The other lie is to continue to call the toy he was holding a weapon. It was not a weapon, even though it looked like one.




Methinks it would behoove many critics to take a scenario course or do a ride along.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Bull****. This wasn't legal by any means. The cop drove up and shot no questions asked.

You'll be amazed at how many 12 year olds will listen to an authority figure as compared to a more defiant adult.
:doh
Wrong.
The Officers pulled up and Tamir reached for the gun.
The Officer responded appropriately.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

so, according to you, the police should have let tamir actually pull the weapon, and then what?

he was going for a weapon? yes or no?

do you abdicate the person actually pointing it at a cop before the officer can respond?

is that what you are saying?

I guess I'd expect the police to use some common sense. If he was a dangerous criminal and the call was about a murder or shooting and they run up on the suspect of a violent crime, then shooting before they stop the car because the suspect made a suspicious move, even though not directly threatening, might make sense.

But this was a call about a potential problem (whether they were notified that it might be a toy or not), and the person was 12 years old. No reports of gun fire or anyone assaulted or shot or robbed or raped. If they thought the person posed an imminent danger, they'd never have rolled up 5 feet from him. But they did and couldn't have possibly given any command or if they did given anyone the time to comply. So what you're blessing is immediate execution of anyone for the slightest SUSPICION of being a deadly threat. They couldn't have even seen an actual gun or what type of gun. He could have been reaching to pull up his pants.

And what no one has mentioned is after the shooting the kid was still alive, and these brave men did NOTHING for 4 minutes. Just left him there dying. Finally an FBI agent nearby showed up and administered CPR, and he was rushed to ER where he later died.

At the very least these cops need to be fired, the shooter out of law enforcement forever, and the city to pay out a nice sum. They just failed their duty at every opportunity.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Depends. I wonder if they know the difference between cover and concealment and just how ****ty a car is for cover?

Tell me...do you think they decided to execute this kid? Or do you think they were being jumpy morons? It is important to think about that. A dumbass rookie may do something stupid...but just because it is a 12 year old kid...doesn't erase the very real looking gun. Would you be shocked to hear a story about a kid firing shots at officers?

You can't decide guilt based on what should have been done. Only what was done.

How about you answer my question before you start asking questions of your own?

Anyway... I dunno if they decided to execute the kid because none of their actions make any sense to me. They had no reason to pull up like that. That's not being jumpy, because they were in fact overly aggressive. It was the cops who ran up on the kid. It was the cops were pulled their weapons first (I know this because the kid only had time to lift his shirt before being shot).

What was done seals their guilt, not what I think they should have done.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

First, there was no weapon in Tamir Rice's possession.

2nd, Tamir Rice didn't have time to draw or drop the toy. The police didn't know if he was going to draw his weapon or drop it on the ground. He never had time to do anything BUT die. In fact, they didn't even give him time to show the tip and therefore see if it's a toy or not.

So to answer your question, yes. Give him time to relinquish the "weapon".

3rd, you and others keep repeating the lie that Tamir Rice pointed the toy at the officers. He never actually pointed anything at the officers. The other lie is to continue to call the toy he was holding a weapon. It was not a weapon, even though it looked like one.

you are basing an opinion on facts that are known now, but were unknown then

anyone can look back with hindsight and make different decisions

1. tamir had a weapon....it was unknown if it was a toy or real
2. he had raised his shirt and was reaching into his waistband where the weapon was located

those are undeniable facts

now, you want cops to wait to see what the person with the weapon will do before they react....

they can be trained to do so.....and we will have a lot more dead cops on the street

i never said, nor did i read anywhere on this post that Tamir pointed the weapon at the cops.....he did point it at other people earlier in the day, which is why 911 was called in the first place

if it looks like a weapon.....do you really think a cop should wait until someone points it at them before reacting?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Tamir Rice NEVER pointed the toy at the police.


reread what luftwaffe said

he pointed the weapon....not pointed it at the cops

assumptions can be real bad errors
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

They had no reason to pull up like that.
What do you mean they?
The Officer who was a passenger was not driving.

That Officer was then confronted with an individual going for a weapon.
And yes, for the purposes of the discussion you look at it from the Officer's point of view. It was a weapon to them as that is what they were told it was.


because they were in fact overly aggressive.
The Officer who shot was not being overly aggressive.
His response was appropriate, not overly aggressive.

The driver pulling up where he did was odd but how you think that was overly aggressive is beyond reality.


It was the cops who ran up on the kid. It was the cops were pulled their weapons first (I know this because the kid only had time to lift his shirt before being shot).
Dishonesty.
While the Officer did pull his firearm first it was in response to Tamir reaching for the gun in his waistband, not just lifting his shirt.


What was done seals their guilt,
Guilt? iLOL :lamo
 
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