• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Lutherf said:
It should absolutely go to a grand jury. Whether the kid was armed or not there was no imminent threat when the cop came up and the way he approached was reckless and stupid.
Click to expand...

The kid was reaching as the Officer said he was, which is an imminent threat.
His response to a lethal threat with lethal force was appropriate, as such his life should not be put in jeopardy for acting appropriately.

As for the way the driver approached. And? That may or may be a reason to give him more training, but does not negate the other Officer's correct action in responding to the threat.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Excon said:
The kid was reaching as the Officer said he was, which is an imminent threat.
His response to a lethal threat with lethal force was appropriate, as such his life should not be put in jeopardy for acting appropriately.

As for the way the driver approached. And? That may or may be a reason to give him more training, but does not negate the other Officer's correct action in responding to the threat.
Click to expand...

So basically the cop in the passenger seat didn't have a choice of how to approach because he wasn't driving and was forced into the situation? That's an interesting defense and, frankly, not without merit.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Moot said:
I've noticed a pattern too and it has to do with the way the calls are made to the police. It seems more often than not that someone calls in to report something suspicious, that might not even be true (ie: might have a gun, acting strange, etc) and thats what the cops seem to react to when they arrive on the scene instead of trying to find out what is really going on first.
Click to expand...

if someone calls in and reports someone carrying an assault rifle as a cop your first thought isn't I am going to show up and see what is going on first and ask questions.
your first thought is I am going to show up and hope I make it home tonight.

if the guy has an assault rifle and doesn't comply with putting the gun down then there is more than just my life at risk.
you can't say because you don't know.

There are cases when that response isn't appropriate. there are other times that it is.
While I agree that the police need to be re-taught constitutional law and rules the fact is that they put their life on the line
and they want to go home to their families at the end of the day. that is why they are given some leeway in certain issues.

there have been a few of them that have been a little sketchy and that are being put on trial.
others haven't been and there was no reason to put the cops through what they went through.

People need to calm done and not assume since the person isn't armed they are innocent.

if the kid has an illegal bb gun (without and orange tip on it) and reaches for it when the cops get there then he is putting his own life in danger.
it isn't the cops fault. they see a person with a very real weapon. a colt 1911 is a serious gun and not your typical street gun.

if he reaches for it then he should expect to be shot.
 
Last edited:
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

VanceMack said:
Lets hope citizens stop calling in complaints about thugs with guns terrorizing people in parks, and lets hope if citizens DO call those complaints in the cops refuse to respond. That way, when they kid that is on video walking up and down the sidewalk terrorizing citizens with what looks like a very real gun gets approached by cops the kid doesnt jump up and raise his shirt and reach for what the police were told is a gun and get shot.
Click to expand...

that is why it is illegal to take the plastic tip off of those guns. that orange tip is on there for a reason to ensure that cops know it is a bb gun or pellet gun.
this kid thought he would try to intimidate people and take the tip off making it look like a real gun.

a colt 1911 is a very serious weapon. it is a .45 cal weapon that is capable of serious injury.
if he reached for it the cops can determine that he is a threat based on the information. they have no idea it is a bb gun.

neither did anyone else the kid took the orange tip off.
if this was the case I don't see the officers doing anything wrong.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Lutherf said:
So basically the cop in the passenger seat didn't have a choice of how to approach because he wasn't driving and was forced into the situation? That's an interesting defense and, frankly, not without merit.
Click to expand...

you are a cop and someone reaches for what looks like a real gun what are you going to do? sit there and ask him what he is doing or are you going to protect yourself and your partner?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

reinoe said:
Cops are not interested in diffusing any situation. That decreases their chances of using a gun.
Click to expand...

what a load of BS. no cop that I know and I know a few of them want to pull their gun and shoot someone. in fact most prefer not to
if they do it means the situation has gone from bad to worse.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I don't know if the murder charge will stick (it probably won't), but I really hope the cops sees a good amount of prison time (which he probably won't).
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Mr. Invisible said:
I don't know if the murder charge will stick (it probably won't), but I really hope the cops sees a good amount of prison time (which he probably won't).
Click to expand...

Why in the world would you want to see someone do Prison time from acting appropriately to a threat?
That makes no sense.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

ludin said:
you are a cop and someone reaches for what looks like a real gun what are you going to do? sit there and ask him what he is doing or are you going to protect yourself and your partner?
Click to expand...

As I said, my concern is that the cops were reckless to put themselves in that situation to begin with. Excon suggested that perhaps the cop in the passenger seat could claim that he didn't have a choice in how to deploy since he wasn't in control of the vehicle and, like I said, the idea is not without some merit. It would have a lot of merit if that's the scenario that went into the initial report but I really doubt that's the case.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

VanceMack said:
Lets hope citizens stop calling in complaints about thugs with guns terrorizing people in parks, and lets hope if citizens DO call those complaints in the cops refuse to respond. That way, when they kid that is on video walking up and down the sidewalk terrorizing citizens with what looks like a very real gun gets approached by cops the kid doesnt jump up and raise his shirt and reach for what the police were told is a gun and get shot.
Click to expand...

Hyperbole much?

1. It was a 12 year old kid.

2. It was not a real gun, rather a BB gun which is legal.

3. The kid was just doing as kids do, playing.

4. The kid was not breaking the law.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Excon said:
Why in the world would you want to see someone do Prison time from acting appropriately to a threat?
That makes no sense.
Click to expand...

If you think that a 12 year old with a BB gun is a threat to a grown man with a real gun, then I hope you are never a cop.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

reinoe said:
Cops are not interested in diffusing any situation. That decreases their chances of using a gun.
Click to expand...

good god

can you be any more biased towards the men in blue?

i have a number of friends in the LE business.....

and their number one priority isnt shooting some idiotic perp

it is going home safely to their family at night

this was a tragic situation

a lack of communication from the 911 operator to the responding officers

and a 12 yr old kid, who wanted to play gangsta in the park using a pellet gun

i hate the results as most people would......

but get off your freaking high horse....go put on a badge, and see if you can do it better
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Lutherf said:
As I said, my concern is that the cops were reckless to put themselves in that situation to begin with. Excon suggested that perhaps the cop in the passenger seat could claim that he didn't have a choice in how to deploy since he wasn't in control of the vehicle and, like I said, the idea is not without some merit. It would have a lot of merit if that's the scenario that went into the initial report but I really doubt that's the case.
Click to expand...
Even if the shooter requested the driver pull up where he did, it should not matter to that fact of responding at that moment in time to the threat.

For all we know it would have gone down the same way had the car been 12 feet over on the road/parking lot; The kid starts reaching and the Officer responds appropriately.
So it shouldn't matter to his responding the way he did to the threat.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Lutherf said:
As I said, my concern is that the cops were reckless to put themselves in that situation to begin with. Excon suggested that perhaps the cop in the passenger seat could claim that he didn't have a choice in how to deploy since he wasn't in control of the vehicle and, like I said, the idea is not without some merit. It would have a lot of merit if that's the scenario that went into the initial report but I really doubt that's the case.
Click to expand...

cops put themselves into those situations all the time that doesn't mean they should have to ask 100 questions before they do something.
could the approach been better probably but they got a call about a kid walking around waving a gun at people. that is far more dangerous then what the cops were doing.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Mr. Invisible said:
If you think that a 12 year old with a BB gun is a threat to a grown man with a real gun, then I hope you are never a cop.
Click to expand...
Lame reply. You are second guessing after the fact, which is also lame.
A gun that appeared to be real, and a 12 year old with a gun can do as much damage as and adult can with the same gun.
So again, you wanting prison time for an appropriate response makes no sense.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Mr. Invisible said:
If you think that a 12 year old with a BB gun is a threat to a grown man with a real gun, then I hope you are never a cop.
Click to expand...

they didn't now it was a bb gun. the kid had removed the orange signal tip to show that it was a bb gun. without the tip it really does look a like 1911 colt.
I hope you would use more logic in your posts on things like this.

the cops can't tell at a distance more so with it in his pants that it is a bb gun. if you look at the gun itself it looks very real.
and a 45 cal gun is nothing to sneeze at. it can do some serious damage.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

BrewerBob said:
It is interesting which shootings engender the biggest protests. The ones I would THINK would cause the most uproar don't. I guess it all comes down to the personalities of people in a particular city.
Click to expand...
The Tamir Rice shooting also happened either right before or right after the jury in NYC decided not to indict the officer who killed Eric Garner. I think this also factors into why Rice didn't get as much as attention as other cases.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

What gets lost in the effort to convict this officer of something is the fact that you have to forget all about the gun being a toy. The officer's reaction must be evaluated as if the gun were real (he, or anyone else, had no reason to believe it was anything but real). The kid deserves the Darwin Award.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Luftwaffe said:
True, but murder? Is there any other possible charge? Was the cop really looking to murder this kid or did he really feel that the public could have been in danger? The kid at one point in the video was aiming the gun down the street at something.
Click to expand...

Yes there is, the judge listed out several charge options. He can't however force the DA to press any.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Mr. Invisible said:
Hyperbole much?

1. It was a 12 year old kid.

2. It was not a real gun, rather a BB gun which is legal.

3. The kid was just doing as kids do, playing.

4. The kid was not breaking the law.
Click to expand...


you want to explain to me how the two cops in the unit were supposed to know any of that?

the 911 operator was told by the callers that it was possibly "a toy" but that WAS NOT relayed to responding officers

the kid had been seen waving a gun (maybe a toy, maybe not) at people throughout the park

looking at the kid on video, can you honestly say you knew he was 12 years old before being told so?

no way in hell i would think that
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

ThePlayDrive said:
The Tamir Rice shooting also happened either right before or right after the jury in NYC decided not to indict the officer who killed Eric Garner. I think this also factors into why Rice didn't get as much as attention as other cases.
Click to expand...
There was no Officer who killed Eric Garner.
It wasn't a choke hold, and the hold was released while he was still talking.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Mr. Invisible said:
Hyperbole much?

1. It was a 12 year old kid.

2. It was not a real gun, rather a BB gun which is legal.

3. The kid was just doing as kids do, playing.

4. The kid was not breaking the law.
Click to expand...

The kid probably was breaking the law. I don't know what the law is in Cleveland but in in most places pointing a firearm, even a pellet gun, at people is illegal. Besides, the responding cops would have no way to know whether the gun was real or not as they approached.

In this particular scenario the primary problem was in the way the cops approached. There did not appear to be an imminent threat to anyone at the time they came on the scene but the driver certainly - and unnecessarily - put himself and his partner in a potentially deadly situation. Self defense generally goes out the window if you knowingly and willingly go from a safe position to one of imminent danger unless you are doing so to protect someone else who is in such danger.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Mr. Invisible said:
Hyperbole much?

1. It was a 12 year old kid.

2. It was not a real gun, rather a BB gun which is legal.

3. The kid was just doing as kids do, playing.

4. The kid was not breaking the law.
Click to expand...

1. it doesn't matter.
2. the orange tip was removed to show that it was a bb gun or a pellet gun which is illegal.
3. from reports the kid was waving the gun at people that is not playing.
4. reaching for a gun and attempting to point it at police officers is illegal just as it would be illegal to point a gun at anyone else.

it doesn't matter if it is a pellet gun or not.

edit: current law does not state that bb guns have to have an orange tip on them. I consider this stupid.
more so when they look exactly like a real gun and unless looking at it closely you can't tell the difference more so
if it is someone's pants.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Excon said:
There was no Officer who killed Eric Garner.
It wasn't a choke hold, and the hold was released while he was still talking.
Click to expand...
It was ruled a homicide, LOL.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

ludin said:
cops put themselves into those situations all the time that doesn't mean they should have to ask 100 questions before they do something.
could the approach been better probably but they got a call about a kid walking around waving a gun at people. that is far more dangerous then what the cops were doing.
Click to expand...

As a previous poster has noted, there was no one around outside where the kid was playing, so no he was not waving a gun at people.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom