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Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

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Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Tamir Rice: judge finds cause for murder charge over police killing of 12-year-old | US news | The Guardian

Just saw this on my local news as well (Channel 12, CBS, Cincinnati)

Judge Ronald Adrine of the Cleveland Municipal Court said there were grounds to prosecute Officer Timothy Loehmann with murder....

I don't know if murder is going to fly but the shooting looked really bad and charges should be brought as well as a massive law suit

Of all the apparently egregious acts of violence with cops in the spotlight, this one seems the most obvious in its egregiousness. I am wondering if this thread will actually have a counterpoint and debate (other than about how severe a charge is appropriate) or whether the lion's share of posters here will affirm your observations?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Of all the apparently egregious acts of violence with cops in the spotlight, this one seems the most obvious in its egregiousness. I am wondering if this thread will actually have a counterpoint and debate (other than about how severe a charge is appropriate) or whether the lion's share of posters here will affirm your observations?

we just had a protest in cincinnati. a rookie cop and his training officer were called to a residence where a convicted drug dealer was fatally shot. The officer and the victim were both black and the evidence appears to be on the cops' side as one officer was trying to hold on to the barrel of the 22 caliber rifle (appeared to be a Ruger 10-22-a very common plinking and small game rifle) that the deceased was holding and during the struggle, the other officer shot the suspect)

cops do the right thing and there are protests. Cops do the wrong thing and there are protests. the cleveland shooting stunk. the officers were in their car which is far different than a close quarters struggle with a large adult and a rifle.

I used to handle defense of police shootings while in private practice (had the insurance company covering three major LE agencies) and then in the public sector with the DOJ.

we have people who protest the cops anytime someone is shot-especially a black
and we have people who figure anyone the cops shoot is a mope and deserved it

I can tell you the shooting of this boy in Cleveland was clearly illegal from what I saw
I can tell you the shooting of that guy in a walmart or Kmart who was carrying a pellet rifle was pretty bad but some of the blame goes to the idiot who called the cops and said the deceased was threatening people with "an assault weapon" which was hyperbolic at best and more likely an outright lie

however, some of the other police shootings-like the one that got things started in MO, appear to have been justified
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

It's hard because the police seemed to have acted way too fast without taking anything into consideration.

But at the same time, the way that kid was pointing the pellet gun... And it's not like these things look like toys.

I mean, look at the M1911 pellet gun.

k2-_4a9e572d-c552-4068-a0e9-406a364aefce.v1.jpg

It's definitely going to be tough. I don't know if murder is the right sentence though. And for that reason, I think that if he goes to court with a murder charge, it's most likely going to be dropped.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

When I first heard about this tragic incident, I wasn't sure whose fault it was. Then as I heard more and more about it... I mean, literally two seconds from arrival to dead kid... there is now no doubt in my mind that this shooting was reckless, negligent and unprofessional. Not all the shootings where protests erupt are bad, but this one definitely was.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

we just had a protest in cincinnati. a rookie cop and his training officer were called to a residence where a convicted drug dealer was fatally shot. The officer and the victim were both black and the evidence appears to be on the cops' side as one officer was trying to hold on to the barrel of the 22 caliber rifle (appeared to be a Ruger 10-22-a very common plinking and small game rifle) that the deceased was holding and during the struggle, the other officer shot the suspect)

cops do the right thing and there are protests. Cops do the wrong thing and there are protests. the cleveland shooting stunk. the officers were in their car which is far different than a close quarters struggle with a large adult and a rifle.

I used to handle defense of police shootings while in private practice (had the insurance company covering three major LE agencies) and then in the public sector with the DOJ.

we have people who protest the cops anytime someone is shot-especially a black
and we have people who figure anyone the cops shoot is a mope and deserved it

I can tell you the shooting of this boy in Cleveland was clearly illegal from what I saw
I can tell you the shooting of that guy in a walmart or Kmart who was carrying a pellet rifle was pretty bad but some of the blame goes to the idiot who called the cops and said the deceased was threatening people with "an assault weapon" which was hyperbolic at best and more likely an outright lie

however, some of the other police shootings-like the one that got things started in MO, appear to have been justified

True, but murder? Is there any other possible charge? Was the cop really looking to murder this kid or did he really feel that the public could have been in danger? The kid at one point in the video was aiming the gun down the street at something.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Of all the apparently egregious acts of violence with cops in the spotlight, this one seems the most obvious in its egregiousness. I am wondering if this thread will actually have a counterpoint and debate (other than about how severe a charge is appropriate) or whether the lion's share of posters here will affirm your observations?

I'm wondering why the guy shot a kid. I can't really open it. Tapatalk is a whore sometimes. I mean...was he just being a one bullet Barney dumb ass?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

When I first heard about this tragic incident, I wasn't sure whose fault it was. Then as I heard more and more about it... I mean, literally two seconds from arrival to dead kid... there is now no doubt in my mind that this shooting was reckless, negligent and unprofessional. Not all the shootings where protests erupt are bad, but this one definitely was.

I watched the tape about 12 times

no doubt in my mind it was an improper shooting. If I was the attorney for cleveland I would have recommended

1) fire the cop-then again, he already had been fired by another department and yet hired by Cleveland

2) try to settle the case quickly-its gonna be about a 3-5 million dollar trial verdict if it goes to a jury
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I'm wondering why the guy shot a kid. I can't really open it. Tapatalk is a whore sometimes. I mean...was he just being a one bullet Barney dumb ass?

He was irrational and clearly went in guns blazing.

On the other hand, the kid was holding something akin to this...

k2-_4a9e572d-c552-4068-a0e9-406a364aefce.v1.jpg

The cop is still going to get roasted. I'm just not sure if it's going to be murder 1 or 2 roasted. I was thinking more along the lines of manslaughter. Then again, I don't know **** about law since I'm not trained in it. But having read on what constitutes a first or second degree murder, I just can't say for sure that this cop MURDERED the child. People seem to forget that despite being a child, he was still holding a pellet gun that APPEARED to be a fully functional, lethal pistol, AND said child was, at one point, aiming said pistol down a street at something. Deliberately AIMING, not just holding.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

we just had a protest in cincinnati. a rookie cop and his training officer were called to a residence where a convicted drug dealer was fatally shot. The officer and the victim were both black and the evidence appears to be on the cops' side as one officer was trying to hold on to the barrel of the 22 caliber rifle (appeared to be a Ruger 10-22-a very common plinking and small game rifle) that the deceased was holding and during the struggle, the other officer shot the suspect)

cops do the right thing and there are protests. Cops do the wrong thing and there are protests. the cleveland shooting stunk. the officers were in their car which is far different than a close quarters struggle with a large adult and a rifle.

I used to handle defense of police shootings while in private practice (had the insurance company covering three major LE agencies) and then in the public sector with the DOJ.

we have people who protest the cops anytime someone is shot-especially a black
and we have people who figure anyone the cops shoot is a mope and deserved it

I can tell you the shooting of this boy in Cleveland was clearly illegal from what I saw
I can tell you the shooting of that guy in a walmart or Kmart who was carrying a pellet rifle was pretty bad but some of the blame goes to the idiot who called the cops and said the deceased was threatening people with "an assault weapon" which was hyperbolic at best and more likely an outright lie

however, some of the other police shootings-like the one that got things started in MO, appear to have been justified

It is interesting which shootings engender the biggest protests. The ones I would THINK would cause the most uproar don't. I guess it all comes down to the personalities of people in a particular city.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

He was irrational and clearly went in guns blazing.

On the other hand, the kid was holding something akin to this...

View attachment 67185537

The cop is still going to get roasted. I'm just not sure if it's going to be murder 1 or 2 roasted. I was thinking more along the lines of manslaughter. Then again, I don't know **** about law since I'm not trained in it. But having read on what constitutes a first or second degree murder, I just can't say for sure that this cop MURDERED the child. People seem to forget that despite being a child, he was still holding a pellet gun that APPEARED to be a fully functional, lethal pistol, AND said child was, at one point, aiming said pistol down a street at something. Deliberately AIMING, not just holding.

If he saw the aiming...I can't really call it murder. Murder has strict definitions. That isn't it. Especially given the training officers get now to deal with active shooters. I mean...what happens if it were a kid with a real firearm?

Like I said...I can't watch it. But from what everyone seems to be saying...it doesn't sound like murder, but horrific negligence. He didn't premeditate this shooting.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Let's hope this starts a trend, and we settle police brutality in open court rather than secret grand juries.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

the ABC news here in Cincinnati- (running late due to the GSW's beatdown of the Cavs in Cleveland) is reporting that the prosecutor is going to take the case to the grand jury. apparently the Muni-judge cannot force prosecution
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Let's hope this starts a trend, and we settle police brutality in open court rather than secret grand juries.

Oops-looks like the grand jury is gonna get it. you do know that the prosecutor can short circuit a Preliminary hearing by an indictment?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

If he saw the aiming...I can't really call it murder. Murder has strict definitions. That isn't it. Especially given the training officers get now to deal with active shooters. I mean...what happens if it were a kid with a real firearm?

Like I said...I can't watch it. But from what everyone seems to be saying...it doesn't sound like murder, but horrific negligence. He didn't premeditate this shooting.

It's without a doubt that the cop is going to get roasted in civil and criminal court (somehow).

I just cannot, personally, see this as being MURDER.

Also, this was from a previous thread months ago. This was the EXACT pellet gun the kid was holding at the scene.

16413906-mmmain.jpg

Looks like a 1911 to me. And it sure as hell looked like one to the cop.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Oops-looks like the grand jury is gonna get it. you do know that the prosecutor can short circuit a Preliminary hearing by an indictment?

Although this was directed towards paschendale, I have no ****ing clue what that means XD

Would you mind explaining this legal sorcery?
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

True, but murder? Is there any other possible charge? Was the cop really looking to murder this kid or did he really feel that the public could have been in danger? The kid at one point in the video was aiming the gun down the street at something.

It wasn't premeditated but from what I saw the cop rolled up right on top of the kid and started pulling the trigger. It may have been the worst display of tactics I have ever seen. There was no attempt to diffuse the situation and, as far as I could tell, nobody else was in the immediate vicinity so there wasn't an imminent threat to public safety.
 
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Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Although this was directed towards paschendale, I have no ****ing clue what that means XD

Would you mind explaining this legal sorcery?

say you are arrested for drug trafficking. you can demand a preliminary hearing (defendants often do this in order to find out who ratted them out-cynical LEOs say they do this so they can "take out the rat") this works if the grand jury isn't going to meet for a while. If it does, the DA or the USA or the Country Prosecutor can take the case to the GJ. if the GJ indicts, the Preliminary hearing is vacated and the case proceeds to the court

in the federal system, magistrate judges handle arraignments, bonds and preliminary hearings, MJs are not able to try criminal cases but they can try civil cases-of ANY amount with the consent of the parties. In our county system in Ohio, Muni-court judges do arraignments etc but the court of common pleas handles felony trials
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Good, that cop needs a trial, what he did was abhorrent.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

It wasn't premeditated but from what I saw the cop rolled up right on top of the kid and started pulling the trigger. It may have been the worst display of tactics I have ever seen. There was no attempt to diffuse the situation and, as far as I could tell, nobody else was in the immediate vicinity so there wasn't an imminent threat to public safety.

I'm wondering why the guy shot a kid. I can't really open it. Tapatalk is a whore sometimes. I mean...was he just being a one bullet Barney dumb ass?

When I first heard about this tragic incident, I wasn't sure whose fault it was. Then as I heard more and more about it... I mean, literally two seconds from arrival to dead kid... there is now no doubt in my mind that this shooting was reckless, negligent and unprofessional. Not all the shootings where protests erupt are bad, but this one definitely was.
This seems to be a common thread with many of these media cases: there almost seems an eagerness to pull the trigger, whether legally justified or not. There's almost a disregard for human life.

If you guys remember the New Mexico homeless guy in the desert that was popped by the sharp-shooter, there doesn't seem to be the efforts made to diffuse the situation that would show basic respect for human life - not just respect for the cops lives, but also for the lives of the offenders, who sometimes are offending in some relatively minor fashion.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

This seems to be a common thread with many of these media cases: there almost seems an eagerness to pull the trigger, whether legally justified or not. There's almost a disregard for human life.

If you guys remember the New Mexico homeless guy in the desert that was popped by the sharp-shooter, there doesn't seem to be the efforts made to diffuse the situation that would show basic respect for human life.

Cops are not interested in diffusing any situation. That decreases their chances of using a gun.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

This seems to be a common thread with many of these media cases: there almost seems an eagerness to pull the trigger, whether legally justified or not. There's almost a disregard for human life.

If you guys remember the New Mexico homeless guy in the desert that was popped by the sharp-shooter, there doesn't seem to be the efforts made to diffuse the situation that would show basic respect for human life - not just respect for the cops lives, but also for the lives of the offenders, who sometimes are offending in some relatively minor fashion.


I've noticed a pattern too and it has to do with the way the calls are made to the police. It seems more often than not that someone calls in to report something suspicious, that might not even be true (ie: might have a gun, acting strange, etc) and thats what the cops seem to react to when they arrive on the scene instead of trying to find out what is really going on first.
 
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Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Lets hope citizens stop calling in complaints about thugs with guns terrorizing people in parks, and lets hope if citizens DO call those complaints in the cops refuse to respond. That way, when they kid that is on video walking up and down the sidewalk terrorizing citizens with what looks like a very real gun gets approached by cops the kid doesnt jump up and raise his shirt and reach for what the police were told is a gun and get shot.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Judge Ronald Adrine of the Cleveland Municipal Court said there were grounds to prosecute Officer Timothy Loehmann with murder....
Thank G_d he doesn't have the power to bring charges.
Though image quality is poor, Judge Adrine wrote, “it does not appear to show him making any furtive movement prior to, or at, the moment he is shot.”
Cleveland Judge Finds Probable Cause to Charge Officers in Tamir Rice Death

Based on the video, his statement appears to be patently false.
Tamir can be seen reaching for his waistline as the Cops arrive.


I don't know if murder is going to fly but the shooting looked really bad and charges should be brought as well as a massive law suit
The prosecutor said the GJ will decide, and in light of the video showing him reaching it shouldn't even go to a GJ.
and Mr. McGinty said his office still had investigating of its own to do. Eventually, his office said, prosecutors will take the case to a grand jury, which will decide whether to issue indictments.
Cleveland Judge Finds Probable Cause to Charge Officers in Tamir Rice Death



This is nothing more than bs wrangling by Benjamin Crump of Trayvon fame trying to better his chances in regards to bringing a civil suit.





Let's hope this starts a trend, and we settle police brutality in open court rather than secret grand juries.

There was no Police brutality here.





Good, that cop needs a trial, what he did was abhorrent.
:doh
Responding with lethal force to a threat of lethal force is not abhorrent.
 
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Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Thank G_d he doesn't have the power to bring charges.
Though image quality is poor, Judge Adrine wrote, “it does not appear to show him making any furtive movement prior to, or at, the moment he is shot.”
Cleveland Judge Finds Probable Cause to Charge Officers in Tamir Rice Death

Based on the video, his statement appears to be patently false.
Tamir can be seen reaching for his waistline as the Cops arrive.


The prosecutor said the GJ will decide, and in light of the video showing him reaching it shouldn't even go to a GJ.
and Mr. McGinty said his office still had investigating of its own to do. Eventually, his office said, prosecutors will take the case to a grand jury, which will decide whether to issue indictments.
Cleveland Judge Finds Probable Cause to Charge Officers in Tamir Rice Death



This is nothing more than bs wrangling by Benjamin Crump of Trayvon fame trying to better his chances in regards to bringing a civil suit.

It should absolutely go to a grand jury. Whether the kid was armed or not there was no imminent threat when the cop came up and the way he approached was reckless and stupid.
 
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