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Tamir Rice:Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing 12 year-old[W:262]

Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

We've already covered most of the ground, but you keep asserting he was reaching for the gun. We don't know that - I've looked at the video and can't see the gun or tell what he was actually reaching for. The police assumed it was the gun, and shot him dead before they could know what he was doing or what his intentions were. We'll just have to disagree.

say what you want. it doesn't matter. the video clearly shows him lifting up his shirt and reaching for something in the front of his pants. your bias is your bias.

Second, if you are black male in a bad neighborhood, of course the better move is to probably put your hands up and slowly lay down on the ground so you can be searched, but we shouldn't have to have passed a course in how to interact with cops and expect 12 year olds to get that right every time or else the cops are free to kill them, and have no repercussions. This isn't a police state.

being black doesn't have anything to do with it and the fact you have to try and pull the race card shows how bad your argument really is.

no i would expect a 12 year old to know not to take a gun from a house and point it in random direction in a park in a bad neighborhood.
that is just common sense.

cops are free to kill people that is a strawman. the cops are allowed to use deadly force if the situation calls for it.
not knowing what to expect and having the person walking toward you pulling up his shirt and seeing a gun handle is enough to invite deadly force.

unfortunately the kid got shot.

however the bigger question is why is in he in a public park pointing guns around in random directions.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

i never lied in the first place so once again you prove you don't know what you are talking about.
you just rant away and show you have no idea what you are referring to. your inability to go back and understand what is being talked about is 100% on you and you are only insulting yourself by your inane ranting.

Lol, yep tell us again how it's illegal to remove the tip off a gun that has no federal requirement to have it. I'll wait.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

In the courtroom scenario, the jury would hit the deck. The crowd would be screaming and would hit the floor or trample one another hitting the exits. Yes, the bailiff or judge might shoot him. Its not because he screamed die mother****er, it would be because he would pull what looks to everyone in that room in the moment (without the benefit of cute pictures of a perpetrator in softened lighting and the benefit of knowledge that it was in fact a toy gun) like a deadly weapon.

The cops pulled up. The kid jumped up, raised his shirt and reached for what HE had been presenting as a deadly weapon. The cops responded to the threat HE had created. Tragic concurrence? Sure. Murder? GTF out of here with that. The preference of charges is offered to appease a community, not because it is the right thing to do.

never said it was murder. but the cop needs to be convicted.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Looked to me like he reached into his waistband as they pulled up. He sure as hell didn't raise his hands and keep them away from his body.

But the gun could have been pink with flowers on it, and the police couldn't have known because he wasn't holding the gun when he was shot. It was still wherever he had it. In his belt or a pocket. We can't see from the video.

A lot of the "controversy" seems aimed at whether the cops were supposed to know it was a "toy" gun and not a "real" gun. The article says a pellet gun, which is a real gun. The call was about someone waving a gun around, maybe a toy gun. Unless the person who called actually saw/heard it fire, then he, nor the police, could not have told the difference (as I demonstrated) and thus, the police had to treat it as if the kid was armed with a deadly weapon.

Bottom line is at a minimum it appears the police handled this poorly from start to finish and if it appears on any training video, an example of how to mishandle what should be a routine call. And it cost Rice his life, so we are talking about it. I think people defending the cops here are giving the profession a bad name by trying to defend incompetence and tell us incompetence is in fact an appropriate police response to this situation.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Lol, yep tell us again how it's illegal to remove the tip off a gun that has no federal requirement to have it. I'll wait.

i don't have to explain to you nothing i said. so you just continue your inane ranting no one is listen and i am not going to respond to you again in this thread
since you don't have the ability to know what you are talking about.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

say what you want. it doesn't matter. the video clearly shows him lifting up his shirt and reaching for something in the front of his pants. your bias is your bias.

For something, and IMO reaching for "something" under your shirt isn't a license for police to shoot and kill you.

being black doesn't have anything to do with it and the fact you have to try and pull the race card shows how bad your argument really is.

Yeah, there is no evidence anywhere that police treat blacks differently than whites....

however the bigger question is why is in he in a public park pointing guns around in random directions.

He's a child and they do stupid things. It's part of the job description.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Oh FFS:doh

If you're in a court room and someone pulls a gun you will probably be in a situation where others are in immediate danger and the prospect of escape is hindered by stuff like doors, walls and furniture. In such a situation you shoot until the threat is eliminated.

In the Tamir Rice situation there was no other person in imminent danger and if the cops had used so much as a shred of common sense and even half decent tactics they could have avoided danger while still communicating with the kid. If, after trying to communicate with the kid, he went hostile then they would be reasonable in taking him out by whatever means necessary including deadly force. However, they never exercised that option. They simply went for the throat and in doing so caused themselves and the suspect to be put in a life or death situation. That's just plain reckless.

Look, I've actually been in two very similar situations as a cop in the military. In both cases I approached, used my vehicle for cover and addressed the situation. In both cases the suspect was quite obviously armed but in neither case did they present enough of a threat that I had to shoot them. Why? Because I didn't put myself in a situation where that was the only option I had!
You offered a perfectly reasonable response to what is presented as a realistic immediate threat, even though it turns out...it was a toy gun. Hell...to your credit...you were HONEST in your response. Some would do this dance about waiting to determine if it was a real gun or some other bull****. Kudos...you said what would have realistically occurred. Because that is a realistic response to what happens when cops (or court officers) are presented with an imminent deadly threat. They dont have the time to stop, assess, calculate, estimate, etc. They respond. Just like a cop that rolled up on a call about a man with a gun threatening people with the gun (and the evidence proved that is what happens) and when the cops rolled up, the man with the gun jumps up, pulls up his shirt SHOWING the gun and reaches for it.

Its a tragic situation...one created by the kid and his grandmama for not dealing with it when she found out he was doing it in the first place. Its not murder.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

never said it was murder. but the cop needs to be convicted.
Yeah...guilty of doing his job.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

But the gun could have been pink with flowers on it, and the police couldn't have known because he wasn't holding the gun when he was shot. It was still wherever he had it. In his belt or a pocket. We can't see from the video.



Bottom line is at a minimum it appears the police handled this poorly from start to finish and if it appears on any training video, an example of how to mishandle what should be a routine call. And it cost Rice his life, so we are talking about it. I think people defending the cops here are giving the profession a bad name by trying to defend incompetence and tell us incompetence is in fact an appropriate police response to this situation.

I don't see that the cops handled it wrong at all. No audio, so we don't know what was said, but clearly the kid was aggressive (moved towards police and reached into waistband) and was not surrendering or making himself non-threatening. In such an instance, what are the cops supposed to do, wait until the perp shoots at them?
 
Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 ye...

View attachment 67185560

One is a Pellet Gun, the other a .44 Magnum. Your a cop, visibility is poor. Can you choose which is which in less than 2 sec?

I am going to go for the one with the hammer down. Just a guess lol

But then again...
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

most toys guns are required by law to have an orange tip on it. bb guns are the exception for some reason.
they are not required to have an orange tip.
Yes, but those tips are easily removed or painted over.
which is illegal and the number 1 reason most kids are shot by not following the rules.
Yet another lie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_in_airsoft


@ Hatuey
Your reply was you not following the conversation between ludin and CRUE CAB.
He clearly made a distinction
As such, your calling what he said a lie, is a lie.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

i don't have to explain to you nothing i said. so you just continue your inane ranting no one is listen and i am not going to respond to you again in this thread
since you don't have the ability to know what you are talking about.

Continuing to repeat it won't make your lie true.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I don't see that the cops handled it wrong at all. No audio, so we don't know what was said, but clearly the kid was aggressive (moved towards police and reached into waistband) and was not surrendering or making himself non-threatening. In such an instance, what are the cops supposed to do, wait until the perp shoots at them?
Walking towards a cop and reaching in one's waistband does not make someone "aggressive" in any world. It might make someone WONDER if they are aggressive, but it doesn't actually make them aggressive. Furthermore, cops aren't supposed to come into a scene like that and immediately shoot someone, ESPECIALLY IN AN OPEN CARRY STATE.

The cops ****ed up.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

But the gun could have been pink with flowers on it, and the police couldn't have known because he wasn't holding the gun when he was shot. It was still wherever he had it. In his belt or a pocket. We can't see from the video.

He doesn't have to be holding it what part of this don't you understand. all he has to do is reach for it.


Bottom line is at a minimum it appears the police handled this poorly from start to finish and if it appears on any training video, an example of how to mishandle what should be a routine call. And it cost Rice his life, so we are talking about it. I think people defending the cops here are giving the profession a bad name by trying to defend incompetence and tell us incompetence is in fact an appropriate police response to this situation.

you are making assumptions. good thing you are not a cop or else i have a feeling you would be in a body bag as you would get killed.
you lack proper judgment in a situation that could cost someone else their life including your own. this is evident by your posts.

cops aren't perfect we don't expect them to be, and when they screw up. see the guy at the pool party, or the guy that shot the other guy running away and planting the taser on him.
then we expect appropriate punishment to be handed down.

this case the cops will not go on trial for murder.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I'm sure by the end of this, we'll find out that Tamir Rice was really a front for a 42 year old Colombian drug lord with ties to the Triads and actually kept voodoo dolls in his room.

I do not share that cynical view of our legal system. I am confident that a grand jury can act impartially and reach the right result IF the process is not abused. That is at least open to question in the Ferguson case, because Wilson, the officer who killed Brown, was allowed to present evidence in his defense to the grand jury. Traditionally, the person who was the target of the inquiry was not allowed to do that.

It is true that the Fifth Amendment right not to be "held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a[n] . . . indictment of a grand jury" is one of several parts of the Bill of Rights the Supreme Court has never held to be incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment, and apply through it to the states. So I suppose Missouri law might have allowed, or even required, the D.A. to let Wilson testify in his defense to the grand jury. But if that was not the case, by allowing that testimony the D.A. opened to question the grand jury's finding that there was no probable cause to indict Wilson.

The same applies here. Unless Ohio law requires the officer who killed this boy to be allowed to present evidence in his defense to the grand jury, the D.A. should not allow it. That is the traditional rule, and the one that applies in federal cases, as Justice Scalia once explained:


[R]equiring the prosecutor to present exculpatory as well as inculpatory evidence would alter the grand jury's historical role, transforming it from an accusatory to an adjudicatory body.

It is axiomatic that the grand jury sits not to determine guilt or innocence, but to assess whether there is adequate basis for bringing a criminal charge. That has always been so; and to make the assessment it has always been thought sufficient to hear only the prosecutor's side . . . According to the description of an early American court, three years before the Fifth Amendment was ratified, it is the grand jury's function not "to enquire ... upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied," or otherwise to try the suspect's defenses, but only to examine "upon what foundation [the charge] is made" by the prosecutor. As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented. (emphasis added; internal citations omitted) U.S. v. Williams, 504 U.S. 36, 51-52 (1992)
 
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Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Walking towards a cop and reaching in one's waistband does not make someone "aggressive" in any world. It might make someone WONDER if they are aggressive, but it doesn't actually make them aggressive. Furthermore, cops aren't supposed to come into a scene like that and immediately shoot someone, ESPECIALLY IN AN OPEN CARRY STATE.

The cops ****ed up.

it does when they have a gun in their wasteband.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Walking towards a cop and reaching in one's waistband does not make someone "aggressive" in any world. It might make someone WONDER if they are aggressive, but it doesn't actually make them aggressive. Furthermore, cops aren't supposed to come into a scene like that and immediately shoot someone, ESPECIALLY IN AN OPEN CARRY STATE.

The cops ****ed up.

There is no part of the video in which a person can tell whether he's reaching for anything. If there is, I'd like to see the specific frame/segment of the video.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

Walking towards a cop and reaching in one's waistband does not make someone "aggressive" in any world. It might make someone WONDER if they are aggressive, but it doesn't actually make them aggressive. Furthermore, cops aren't supposed to come into a scene like that and immediately shoot someone, ESPECIALLY IN AN OPEN CARRY STATE.

The cops ****ed up.
It is dishonest to say "reaching in one's waistband". He reached for his gun which is a lethal threat.

How the driver approached him is irrelevant to that lethal threat and the response to it.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

I do not share that cynical view of our legal system. I am confident that a grand jury can act impartially and reach the right result IF the process is not abused. That is at least open to question in the Ferguson case, because Wilson, the officer who killed Brown, was allowed to present evidence in his defense to the grand jury. Traditionally, the person who was the target of the inquiry was not allowed to do that.

It is true that the Fifth Amendment right not to be "held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a[n] . . . indictment of a grand jury" is one of several parts of the Bill of Rights the Supreme Court has never held to be incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment, and apply through it to the states. I have no idea if Missouri law required the D.A. to present the grand jury with Wilson's testimony in his defense. But if it did not, by allowing that testimony the D.A. opened to question the grand jury's finding that there was no probable cause to indict Wilson.

Unless Ohio law requires the officer who killed this boy to be allowed to present evidence in his defense to the grand jury, the D.A. should not allow it. That is the traditional rule, and the one that applies in federal cases, as Justice Scalia once explained:


[R]equiring the prosecutor to present exculpatory as well as inculpatory evidence would alter the grand jury's historical role, transforming it from an accusatory to an adjudicatory body.
It is axiomatic that the grand jury sits not to determine guilt or innocence, but to assess whether there is adequate basis for bringing a criminal charge. That has always been so; and to make the assessment it has always been thought sufficient to hear only the prosecutor's side . . . According to the description of an early American court, three years before the Fifth Amendment was ratified, it is the grand jury's function not "to enquire ... upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied," or otherwise to try the suspect's defenses, but only to examine "upon what foundation [the charge] is made" by the prosecutor. As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented. (emphasis added; internal citations omitted) U.S. v. Williams, 504 U.S. 36, 51-52 (1992)

While I commend your faith in the legal system, I don't share your sunny view of the world because of how many people have been released after spending 20+ years in prisons thanks to grand juries, corrupt police departments and biased judges.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 ye...

I am going to go for the one with the hammer down. Just a guess lol

But then again...

The top is the pellet gun. Who would put Hogue grips on a pellet gun even if it were possible? The hammer is back on the bottom one because it is my home defence weapon and is loaded (I'm single and live alone, no kids, so it is safe for me), the Desert Eagle is single action with no Berretta type safety for lowering the hammer.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

it does when they have a gun in their wasteband.
Not in an open carry state.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

There is no part of the video in which a person can tell whether he's reaching for anything. If there is, I'd like to see the specific frame/segment of the video.

The quality of the video isn't great but it appears that Rice notices the cop car, gets up and starts walking toward where he figures the cops are going to pull up and then gets wasted. I can't tell if he had anything in his hands when he started walking but his hands were in front of him at about waist level. He may have had his hands in his jacket pockets. At any rate, without audio I can't really tell whether he flinched before or after he got shot.

Ultimately, he did a number of things that lead to his own demise but if the cops had approached in a normal (even for a felony stop) fashion this likely would not have ended with a dead kid.
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

There is no part of the video in which a person can tell whether he's reaching for anything. If there is, I'd like to see the specific frame/segment of the video.

Then you may be blind.
The black object shaped like a gun can really only be the gun he was in possession of and is pulling out.

Huff post image.
2000x1000
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2326464/images/o-TAMIR-RICE-facebook.jpg
 
Re: Tamir Rice: Judge finds cause for Murder charge over police killing of 12 year-o

For something, and IMO reaching for "something" under your shirt isn't a license for police to shoot and kill you.
if it is a gun under that shirt and the police know it then yes it is.


Yeah, there is no evidence anywhere that police treat blacks differently than whites....
as i said the race card is a poor argument to make.


He's a child and they do stupid things. It's part of the job description.

not according to his grandma. he had the gun to intimidate people. not smart in my opinion.

Tamir Rice shooting: What is an airsoft gun? | cleveland.com

according to this article it was an airsoft tip with an orange tip that had been removed.
it wasn't a bb gun

Airsoft Guns - FindLaw

However, federal importation laws in the United States simply require that all Airsoft guns transported within or imported into the country have barrels with a minimum 6mm wide blaze orange tip, so as to avoid confusion with real firearms. Most retailers of Airsoft guns have disclaimers stating that their Airsoft guns are sold with an orange tip, and that it is illegal to remove the orange tip. - See more at: Airsoft Guns - FindLaw

there are a few exceptions.

actual bb guns do not fall under this restriction.
 
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