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Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

Care to flesh that out and explain what you are trying to say?

How " 12 point plan to move America forward " is actually a 12 point plan to destroy whats left of our economy.

Tax Increases, " stimulus to increase aggregate demand " and cost increases on Corporations.

It would be a disaster and not just for us
 
Whose family? Marx or Lennin?
 
How " 12 point plan to move America forward " is actually a 12 point plan to destroy whats left of our economy.

Tax Increases, " stimulus to increase aggregate demand " and cost increases on Corporations.

It would be a disaster and not just for us

Well that's not the kind of answer I was looking for, but I can see you are Brownback/Walker kind of guy.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

So you and I would be one of the former.

Now. If he' so independent instead of a liberal democrat with self-affirming delusions, what issues does he vote with the Republican Party on?

I'm in the latter as I don't divide things into two groups. Voting does not determine party membership, I've already stated that.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

"Socialistic libertarian"? You're kidding, right? Is that like dry water? :roll:

Sanders is revered by The Communist Party USA. Nuff said. ;)

I don't know about the communists, I don't pay much attention to them. I think Bernie is very much libertarian in his views of topics like drug laws, so he wants government out of that issue, but then he is on the opposite end of the spectrum on many other issues for government intrusion. I'm sure he doesn't see how contradictory he is on the role of government. He is an ends justify the means politician.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I'm in the latter as I don't divide things into two groups

:doh

AliHajiSheik said:
There are two kinds of people in the world, those who divide things into two groups, and those who don't

Voting does not determine party membership,

Votes with Democrats
Caucuses with Democrats
Committee Memberships count against Democrats
Running for nomination of Democrat Party for President.

It's a Democrat.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

He doesn't oppose the Democratic ideas. He doesn't fight them. He blindly votes with them almost 100% of the time. He runs in his own state as something other than a Democrat because that flies in Vermont. He is a Democrat.

I don't think Bernie does anything blindly. I think he is very thoughtful in his ideas an opinions. I don't agree with most of them, but he is Independent. The fact that he gets perks by caucusing with the Democrats in Congress and he is more aligned with them on many issues--likely issues you disagree with, does not make him a Democrat. Your 100% figure is your own exaggeration--or do you have some proof?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

:doh





Votes with Democrats
Caucuses with Democrats
Committee Memberships count against Democrats
Running for nomination of Democrat Party for President.

It's a Democrat.

Clearly the humor of two groups was lost on you. Sorry.

He votes often with Democrats.
Not sure what caucus impact he has as they are private meetings. They could just as easily exclude him and not let him in.
What does committee membership counting against Democrats mean?
Even his supporters acknowledge that him running as a Democrat is a means to an end.

Please alert me when he changes his party affiliation changes. We both know it isn't happening.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

I don't think Bernie does anything blindly. I think he is very thoughtful in his ideas an opinions. I don't agree with most of them, but he is Independent. The fact that he gets perks by caucusing with the Democrats in Congress and he is more aligned with them on many issues--likely issues you disagree with, does not make him a Democrat. Your 100% figure is your own exaggeration--or do you have some proof?

No, my "almost 100%" figure (which by the way isn't the same thing as 100%) isn't my "own exaggeration". It was Howard Dean's, fellow Vermonter and at the time head of the DNC, who said it.

The bottom line is that Bernie Sanders votes with the Democrats 98 percent of the time. And that is a candidate that we think...

Transcript for May 22 - Meet the Press | NBC News
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Clearly the humor of two groups was lost on you. Sorry.

He votes often with Democrats.
Not sure what caucus impact he has as they are private meetings. They could just as easily exclude him and not let him in.
What does committee membership counting against Democrats mean?
Even his supporters acknowledge that him running as a Democrat is a means to an end.

Please alert me when he changes his party affiliation changes. We both know it isn't happening.

"Often"?

As of 2007, the latest official date I could find, he voted with them 94.10% of the time. That's "often"?

Bernie Sanders on the Issues
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Bernie is not lying, he caucuses with the Democrats, but since he feels the Democrats have lost their way he chooses not to be a registered Democrat.

Bernie is in this race to force the Democrat presidential contenders to discuss the issues he wants them to talk about. If he was an independant he would not be in the Democratic debates and would not be able to do it.

He knows damned well he has no chance of winning.

So he's not a Democrat who is running as a Democrat.

He's a smart man and has a lot of good ideas. If what people say is true, and his ideas resonate with so many, then he shouldn't run with the party who he opposes. If he's using the party to get his ideas out, then all he is doing is making the power of the Democratic Party even more obvious.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Clearly the humor of two groups was lost on you. Sorry.

He votes often with Democrats.

When does he vote with Republicans, then?

Not sure what caucus impact he has as they are private meetings.

Caucusing with Democrats is affiliation and membership in their control of the Senate.

They could just as easily exclude him and not let him in

Then they lose a seat. They could just as easily exclude any other Democrat. It would just be stupid.

What does committee membership counting against Democrats mean?

It means that for purposes of Senatorial proceedings, he's a Democrat.

Even his supporters acknowledge that him running as a Democrat is a means to an end.

Yeah. Winning the Democrat Nomination so that he can be the head of the Democrat Party.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

"Socialistic libertarian"? You're kidding, right? Is that like dry water? :roll:

Sanders is revered by The Communist Party USA. Nuff said. ;)
Not so fast there:

"Libertarian socialism (sometimes called social anarchism,[1][2] left-libertarianism[3][4] and socialist libertarianism[5]) is a group of political philosophies within the socialist movement that reject the view of socialism as state ownership or command of the means of production[6] within a more general criticism of the state form itself[7][8] as well as of wage labour relationships within the workplace.[9] Instead it emphasizes workers' self management of the workplace[10] and decentralized structures of political government[11] asserting that a society based on freedom and equality can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite.[12] Libertarian socialists generally place their hopes in decentralized means of direct democracy and federal or confederal associations[13] such as libertarian municipalism, citizens' assemblies, trade unions, and workers' councils.[14][15] All of this is generally done within a general call for libertarian[16] and voluntary human relationships[17] through the identification, criticism, and practical dismantling of illegitimate authority in all aspects of human life.[18][19][20][21][22][23][24]"

Source: Wikipedia - 'Libertarian Socialism'

As an aside, even though the Wiki 'Libertarian Socialism' article references 'Left Libertarianism' (something with some facets I'm fond of), there are differences - but fundamentally:

"Left-libertarianism (or left-wing libertarianism) names several related but distinct approaches to political and social theory, which stress both individual freedom and social justice."

Source: Wikipedia - 'Left-Libertarianism'

In this country, 'Libertarianism' is most often associated with 'Right Libertarianism', which weighs more heavily on unfettered free-market capitalism and the unequal accumulation of wealth (as one would expect in a country with a heavily corporate & affluent individual influenced political process).

Both forms of Libertarians are anti-statists, they just differ on how to control capital & production (that's a big-deal.)

But elementally, individuals & philosophies can't always be defined by neat little pigeon holes (though our politicians and their political parties would like you to believe that, as they try to get us to tear each other apart for their benefit!)
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

Well that's not the kind of answer I was looking for, but I can see you are Brownback/Walker kind of guy.
Are you a business owner with employees? (serious question)
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

The scenario I see playing out is this:

Bernie gets a substantial turn out in the primaries but still falls a bit short of Hilary who gets the party nomination.

Bernie then assumes that he can do on a national level what he did in Vermont based on his surprising appeal in the primaries. Sanders decides to run as an Independent in the general election just as he does in Vermont, effectively Ross Perot-ing Hilary's presidential bid.
That is possible, also similar to what Ralph Nader did to Al Gore in 2000.

But I don't really see it - I think Sen. Sanders would see the losing result of a fractured party, and would fall inline with the Dems.

Somehow I don't see him as a VP running-mate, either. (I think she'll pick an "attack-dog" "hatchet man")
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Beg to differ all you want, but he knows something you apparently haven't thought about. After running in the primaries and losing as a Democrat, he wouldn't be registered in enough, if any at all, states to win the generall election as an independent. Ross Perot ran as an independent from the beginning to the end.
Very good (and practical) point!

And because of the above, Ms. Clinton knows he can influence her in the primary, but not pull votes from her in the general - he'll come-along back into the fold very nicely after the primary.

The big question is: how will he conduct his campaign against her? Will she be painted as a 'good start', that he improves upon? Or as 'what is wrong' with the country.

I believe he will work in concert with her and build upon her, showing civility as he always does.

The most interesting unknown from my point-of-view, is how will she treat him?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

That is possible, also similar to what Ralph Nader did to Al Gore in 2000.

But I don't really see it - I think Sen. Sanders would see the losing result of a fractured party, and would fall inline with the Dems.

Somehow I don't see him as a VP running-mate, either. (I think she'll pick an "attack-dog" "hatchet man")

Maybe, but he is currently an Independent because he did this to Democrats before. :)
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

How " 12 point plan to move America forward " is actually a 12 point plan to destroy whats left of our economy.

Tax Increases, " stimulus to increase aggregate demand " and cost increases on Corporations.

It would be a disaster and not just for us
A disaster in your opinion & from your point of view.

But, some others of us see three-decades of (supposed) 'trickle-down economics', and are still waiting to see the results we've been promised!
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

A disaster in your opinion & from your point of view.

But, some others of us see three-decades of (supposed) 'trickle-down economics', and are still waiting to see the results we've been promised!
Do YOU have a business with employees?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

Do YOU have a business with employees?
Is there a point you'd like to make, without excessive drama?
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

Is there a point you'd like to make, without excessive drama?
Its a simple question. You are the only one injecting drama. I asked a simple question.
 
A disaster in your opinion & from your point of view.

But, some others of us see three-decades of (supposed) 'trickle-down economics', and are still waiting to see the results we've been promised!

No, not my opinion at all.

Sanders " fairness and equality " iniatives have been tried to varying degrees all over the world and with expected results.

When Francis Hollande raised rates on the " Rich " to 75 percent did it fix disparity ?

Or make disparity worse ? It made it worse.

When Japan blew through 10 different Stimulus packages totaling 100 Trillion Yen did it fix their economy ?

No it didn't. It just exploded their debt and led to nearly 3 decades of stagnationn.

If I asked my 7 year old cousin how would SHE fix income and wealth disparity she would respond by repeating the same left wing Socialist rhetoric of redistribution.

The " Rich " should give some of their money to the poor

Sanders initiatives appeal to the type people that have a child's view of the World and its issues.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

:doh





Votes with Democrats
Caucuses with Democrats
Committee Memberships count against Democrats
Running for nomination of Democrat Party for President.

It's a Democrat.

But but he's a socialistic libertarian! Lol. :roll:
 
Re: Bernie Sanders lays out REAL family values platform

Not so fast there:

"Libertarian socialism (sometimes called social anarchism,[1][2] left-libertarianism[3][4] and socialist libertarianism[5]) is a group of political philosophies within the socialist movement that reject the view of socialism as state ownership or command of the means of production[6] within a more general criticism of the state form itself[7][8] as well as of wage labour relationships within the workplace.[9] Instead it emphasizes workers' self management of the workplace[10] and decentralized structures of political government[11] asserting that a society based on freedom and equality can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite.[12] Libertarian socialists generally place their hopes in decentralized means of direct democracy and federal or confederal associations[13] such as libertarian municipalism, citizens' assemblies, trade unions, and workers' councils.[14][15] All of this is generally done within a general call for libertarian[16] and voluntary human relationships[17] through the identification, criticism, and practical dismantling of illegitimate authority in all aspects of human life.[18][19][20][21][22][23][24]"

Source: Wikipedia - 'Libertarian Socialism'

As an aside, even though the Wiki 'Libertarian Socialism' article references 'Left Libertarianism' (something with some facets I'm fond of), there are differences - but fundamentally:

"Left-libertarianism (or left-wing libertarianism) names several related but distinct approaches to political and social theory, which stress both individual freedom and social justice."

Source: Wikipedia - 'Left-Libertarianism'

In this country, 'Libertarianism' is most often associated with 'Right Libertarianism', which weighs more heavily on unfettered free-market capitalism and the unequal accumulation of wealth (as one would expect in a country with a heavily corporate & affluent individual influenced political process).

Both forms of Libertarians are anti-statists, they just differ on how to control capital & production (that's a big-deal.)

But elementally, individuals & philosophies can't always be defined by neat little pigeon holes (though our politicians and their political parties would like you to believe that, as they try to get us to tear each other apart for their benefit!)

Whatever, people come up with all kinds of goofy contradictory labels for themselves. Doesn't change reality.

On this board, "left libertarians" are indistinguishable from garden variety libs.
 
Re: Bernie Sanders wants to take back “family values” from the GOP

No, not my opinion at all.

Sanders " fairness and equality " iniatives have been tried to varying degrees all over the world and with expected results.

When Francis Hollande raised rates on the " Rich " to 75 percent did it fix disparity ?

Or make disparity worse ? It made it worse.

When Japan blew through 10 different Stimulus packages totaling 100 Trillion Yen did it fix their economy ?

No it didn't. It just exploded their debt and led to nearly 3 decades of stagnationn.

If I asked my 7 year old cousin how would SHE fix income and wealth disparity she would respond by repeating the same left wing Socialist rhetoric of redistribution.

The " Rich " should give some of their money to the poor

Sanders initiatives appeal to the type people that have a child's view of the World and its issues.
I would be inclined to agree with you, if you could cite examples from Sen. Sander's plan supporting the degree of intervention you describe above - I have not seen Sen. Sanders call for raising the federal income tax to 75%, for instance.

But there are some fixes in the tax code & other areas that I think could do us good.

I'd personally like to see some small tax or other incentive to bring overseas corporate money back to the States (and hopefully invested here, too)

I also see no problem putting infrastructure rebuilding jobs into the hands of working-class Americans, giving them money for their labor to stimulate our heretofore consumer-driven economy.

I also would like to see the capital gains tax rates move a little closer to the income tax rates for those that primarily dervive their income from capital gains.

There's a lot that can be done within the framework of Sen. Sander's plan that's sensible, not radical - and quite honestly, I think there's some populist momentum for some of these things.
 
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