• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

CanadaJohn said:
Read my initial post. I clearly said that the video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American justice system and that those in the video were less than human and America should be glad their likes are locked up.

I stand by those words - they are true, if brutal.
Click to expand...
There are 42 million black people in the United States. One video does not "say" anything about that entire population - obviously. So here's the actual "brutal" truth. You hold racist beliefs about black people. You interpreted this story through those racist beliefs and then you came to a racist conclusion. Even further, you're adamant that you're just telling the "brutal truth" while being unwilling to accept the "brutal truth" that what you said was racist.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Do you know how many continuances were requested by he and his defense? Do you know how many times he was set to go to trial and it was delayed by him? There was at least one witness, as I understand it, who identified him as the person who stole the backpack - could it be that he and his defense were hoping that this witness didn't show up at some point?

We can all speculate. Seems after 3 years the prosecution decided they had bigger fish to fry and cut him loose. Could be he and his defense were successful in waiting it out and avoiding trial. Cost him a lot, but that might have been his choice.
Click to expand...

People sitting behind bars for a long period of time waiting for a trial isn't something out of the norm. 1,500 rikers inmates out 10,000 have waited over a year and 400 have waited over 2 years for various reasons.

It's for various reasons but the bail bond system isn't an adequate fix for a faulty system. Pleading guilty to a crime you didn't commit isn't a fix.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Another poster quoted it as $3550 - I don't know one way or the other. Bail bondsmen will take about 10 cents on the dollar to post bail so that's anywhere from $350 to $1000. Mother didn't have it yet she was considered financially secure enough to have him as a foster child and have taken care of 25 others, supposedly. I can tell you that here in Canada nobody that poor is fostering children and they get pretty good supports from the system.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately in the States some parents foster as an income source - the .gov pays foster parents directly, similar to the way child-support is given to the custodial parent.

Some here foster for the right reasons (I knew one, and the parents got burnt by punk the kid), and some see fostering as an income stream.

I make no representations in this specific case, however.
 
VanceMack said:
As more than half of the suicides in the Army today involve individuals that have NEVER deployed, you may be barking...but not up the right tree.
Click to expand...

OK, I'll make the point directly. There are thousands or tens of thousands of veterans who suffer from PTSD as a result of their combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. Before them, we had a generation of Vietnam vets, among them members of my family, who also suffered long term mental illness as a direct result of their combat in war. No on disputes this, and no one believes there is some time limit - "after two years, all symptoms are gone." No one blames the soldiers or their families for their mental illness. We should, if we are decent, treat them, sometimes for a lifetime, for these mental health issues as a result of combat for this country. I think we all agree with that.

So when people say, well hell, the kid was home over two years, his suicide can't have anything to do with the trauma of 2 years in solitary of a still developing teenager, they are simply ignorant about mental health issues, what long term mental harm solitary confinement is KNOWN to cause (not disputed), or how long that harm can last.

And the fact that half the Army suicides are not related to combat says nothing, really. Many thousands of Americans commit suicide and never joined any military. That some number of military veterans who didn't serve suffer the same type of mental issues as the population isn't surprising.

If you wanted to make a point, you'd show somehow that PTSD for returning combat veterans isn't a problem and that the rate of mental health problems and the suicide rate for combat veterans is no different than veterans who never served anywhere near a combat zone. I don't think you can do that.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Read my initial post. I clearly said that the video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American justice system and that those in the video were less than human and America should be glad their likes are locked up.

I stand by those words - they are true, if brutal.
Click to expand...

What does it tell us about "blacks" in America?

If it was meth dealing skinheads with swastika tattoos, what would that tell us about "whites" in America?

Hint: the answer to both questions is "not a damn thing."
 
VanceMack said:
All things considered, CJ definitely could have expressed that sentiment better. He could have been far more selective rather than using the broad brush. I dont think the videos offered speaks to 'blacks in America'. But to those particular groups of people that happen to be black? The prison guards that beat him down, one of which was caught on video? The gang assaults that DID NOT STOP...even after guards were putting themselves between him and the gangs and even after the kid had been secured in a side room? Speaks pretty poorly of those groups.
Click to expand...

Correct, but the brush he's using is a broad, racist brush, and he's been given many opportunities to walk it back and refuses to.

No one disputes the rest of your post above. Using that incident to make conclusions about "blacks" is the issue, and an obvious one.
 
JasperL said:
OK, I'll make the point directly. There are thousands or tens of thousands of veterans who suffer from PTSD as a result of their combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. Before them, we had a generation of Vietnam vets, among them members of my family, who also suffered long term mental illness as a direct result of their combat in war. No on disputes this, and no one believes there is some time limit - "after two years, all symptoms are gone." No one blames the soldiers or their families for their mental illness. We should, if we are decent, treat them, sometimes for a lifetime, for these mental health issues as a result of combat for this country. I think we all agree with that.

So when people say, well hell, the kid was home over two years, his suicide can't have anything to do with the trauma of 2 years in solitary of a still developing teenager, they are simply ignorant about mental health issues, what long term mental harm solitary confinement is KNOWN to cause (not disputed), or how long that harm can last.

And the fact that half the Army suicides are not related to combat says nothing, really. Many thousands of Americans commit suicide and never joined any military. That some number of military veterans who didn't serve suffer the same type of mental issues as the population isn't surprising.

If you wanted to make a point, you'd show somehow that PTSD for returning combat veterans isn't a problem and that the rate of mental health problems and the suicide rate for combat veterans is no different than veterans who never served anywhere near a combat zone. I don't think you can do that.
Click to expand...
I absolutely can make the point that the rate of suicides for non combat vets is the same as for combat vets,

As for what this kids problems were...Im sure prison had a lot to do with it. Its a shame he didnt get the help he needed and really...theres no excuse or reason for him to have not got it. He was a mini-celebrity. He had a fan base of some well to do, well connected people. I dont know what tipped him. I dont know if anyone saw it coming and just couldnt help. You dont either.
 
VanceMack said:
I absolutely can make the point that the rate of suicides for non combat vets is the same as for combat vets,

As for what this kids problems were...Im sure prison had a lot to do with it. Its a shame he didnt get the help he needed and really...theres no excuse or reason for him to have not got it. He was a mini-celebrity. He had a fan base of some well to do, well connected people. I dont know what tipped him. I dont know if anyone saw it coming and just couldnt help. You dont either.
Click to expand...

Just a stab in the dark here, but perhaps he committed another crime and he thought it might send him back.
 
JasperL said:
Correct, but the brush he's using is a broad, racist brush, and he's been given many opportunities to walk it back and refuses to.

No one disputes the rest of your post above. Using that incident to make conclusions about "blacks" is the issue, and an obvious one.
Click to expand...
Could be he is just stubborn. Thats a character trait that more than a few of 'you guys' share. Not me, of course....

:roll:
 
VanceMack said:
No...he was offered bail options as well as plea bargains. Did you read the stories that were linked?

Ive not disagreed at all with the right to a speedy trial and have said that there are surely things that can and should be done different. I just actually bothered to objectively look at the story, read multiple accounts, and see both sides rather than just the one that supports my bent.
Click to expand...

What did I get wrong...he could pay bail or plead guilty. Are "bail options" different than bail?

Both sides? A large segment of the prison population at Rikers has been waiting over a year for trial while 400 have waited over two years. Objectively...that's a systematic problem
 
clownboy said:
Just a stab in the dark here, but perhaps he committed another crime and he thought it might send him back.
Click to expand...

Thats not really fair. We dont know that he committed the second crime. Or the first for that matter. We only know he pled guilty to the initial charge of stealing a vehicle and property damage.
 
iliveonramen said:
What did I get wrong...he could pay bail or plead guilty. Are "bail options" different than bail?

Both sides? A large segment of the prison population at Rikers has been waiting over a year for trial while 400 have waited over two years. Objectively...that's a systematic problem
Click to expand...
He was given 2 separate opportunities to get out and go home while still awaiting trial. He chose to stay in. Could be it was just a testament to the strength of his conviction but it would have gotten him out.

Yes indeed...it IS a systemic problem. I think we have agreed to that. But the 'other side' could be that he was guilty, that he committed the act (they never talk about what his running buddy plead to if anything). Everything in the story is slanted from his side. Was he picking fights with the guards or were they just picking on him? I mean...look at the story. He was arrested and charged with vehicular theft and property damage after stealing a truck, joyriding then crashing it. But...it wasnt me. He was charged with theft of a backpack and a few thousand dollars worth of things. But...it wasnt me. He didnt start anything with the guards, the guards just said they wanted to fight him...It wasnt me. He was just minding his own business and not starting anything with anyone...but...it wasnt me...I never spat on anyone or called them names.

Wasnt me. And maybe it wasnt. But...maybe.......
 
Peter Grimm said:
Sucks that fail after fail keep happening under your hero's stewardship, doesn't it
Click to expand...
Thats a pretty big stretch to tie that to anyone in the fed,...dont you think?
 
VanceMack said:
Thats not really fair. We dont know that he committed the second crime. Or the first for that matter. We only know he pled guilty to the initial charge of stealing a vehicle and property damage.
Click to expand...

Wasn't suggesting that. He was where he was with the criminal record he has. If he committed even the slightest crime, he was most likely sure he'd be returning to Rikers. That's what I see as the likeliest scenario.
 
FEW know that every time that your atty files ANYTHING "for" you, it starts over the speedy trial act. your atty wont warn you about this, and he won't tell you when he's filing something, either!s You have to tell your judge, after asking for a physical copy of the record to be sent to someone that you trust, outside of prison, that you do not want your atty to file ANYTHING without your WRITTEN permisision prior to submitting it. get it ON THE RECORD, in writing and get a COPY of it mailed out to your trusted person, that you are there and then invoking your right to a speedy trial and that you do't want anything lengthening your wait. Quite often, you'll get a MUCH better deal of a plea bargain, cause the state is NOT going to be ready for a trial that soon. If you ever get charged with a felony, you just saved yourself several years in prison by knowing this fact.
 
VanceMack said:
He was given 2 separate opportunities to get out and go home while still awaiting trial. He chose to stay in. Could be it was just a testament to the strength of his conviction but it would have gotten him out. .
Click to expand...

Are you talking about a plea bargain? I'm pretty sure the founders didn't include that ability to plea guilty to a crime in lieu of a speedy trial...


Yes indeed...it IS a systemic problem. I think we have agreed to that. But the 'other side' could be that he was guilty, that he committed the act (they never talk about what his running buddy plead to if anything). Everything in the story is slanted from his side. Was he picking fights with the guards or were they just picking on him? I mean...look at the story. He was arrested and charged with vehicular theft and property damage after stealing a truck, joyriding then crashing it. But...it wasnt me. He was charged with theft of a backpack and a few thousand dollars worth of things. But...it wasnt me. He didnt start anything with the guards, the guards just said they wanted to fight him...It wasnt me. He was just minding his own business and not starting anything with anyone...but...it wasnt me...I never spat on anyone or called them names.
Click to expand...
For someone that claims objectivity it seems like your more concerned with making him a "bad apple" than you are about talking about sitting in jail for multiple years waiting for your trail.

So the idea of a speedy trial...or illegal search and seizure for example...don't count if you committed the crime?
 
Peter Grimm said:
Sucks that fail after fail keep happening under your hero's stewardship, doesn't it
Click to expand...

Yea, a kid fell of the swing today, thanks Obama.
 
iliveonramen said:
Are you talking about a plea bargain? I'm pretty sure the founders didn't include that ability to plea guilty to a crime in lieu of a speedy trial...



For someone that claims objectivity it seems like your more concerned with making him a "bad apple" than you are about talking about sitting in jail for multiple years waiting for your trail.

So the idea of a speedy trial...or illegal search and seizure for example...don't count if you committed the crime?
Click to expand...
Are you being deliberately obtuse? How many times now have I stated that there is certainly a problem with the trial system and that things can and should be done better?
 
VanceMack said:
Are you being deliberately obtuse? How many times now have I stated that there is certainly a problem with the trial system and that things can and should be done better?
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm just confused why you need to continue to throw things out there as excuses for a system that both of us agree is messed up
 
JasperL said:
Correct, but the brush he's using is a broad, racist brush, and he's been given many opportunities to walk it back and refuses to.

No one disputes the rest of your post above. Using that incident to make conclusions about "blacks" is the issue, and an obvious one.
Click to expand...

Clearly, you didn't read the OP in this thread and you're more invested in interpreting my post to suit your need to call me a racist than you are in understanding what was posted.

The OP posted the story with video and claimed that this is a "symbol of America's broken criminal justice system". Got it.

Now, I reviewed the story and reviewed the video and I saw very little that was truly evident about a broken American justice system but I did see a lot of black youth who spat on, kicked, stomped, and beat upon another black youth in the confines of a jail and even with a couple of jail guards trying to control the situation continued to do so. That is what I commented upon. In the context of what happened in Ferguson, what happened and is happening in Baltimore, what's happening daily in Chicago, and in other cities in America, where black on black crime is rampant, where black youth kill other black youth for sport and pleasure, and where respect for others and the property of others is often non-existent, the video in the OP and the actions of these youth said more about blacks in America than it said about the American justice system.

That is a fact, it is a difficult fact, but it is the truth - I can see you don't like it and so need to misinterpret what I said in order to counter it and claim I'm a racist. That's fine. But don't expect me to change my views of what I saw in this video and what is happening in America today because you find the truth uncomfortable. That's your problem, not mine.
 
clownboy said:
You do know the POTUS has the absolute power of clemency and pardon, right?
Click to expand...

That should be quoted as post of the day. They got all bent out of shape when he just mentions that murdered black kid could look like one of his kids.......could you imagine the crazy right wing nutz out rage if he pardoned a poor black kid. OMG Hannity, O'Riley and all the other FAUX news nutz would loose their minds if he ever did something like that.
 
VanceMack said:
No...he was offered bail options as well as plea bargains. Did you read the stories that were linked?

Ive not disagreed at all with the right to a speedy trial and have said that there are surely things that can and should be done different. I just actually bothered to objectively look at the story, read multiple accounts, and see both sides rather than just the one that supports my bent.
Click to expand...

I didn't see any bail options. The New Yorker story said that by July 28, 2010, or 2 months after arrest, bail was revoked because he's been charged with a violent felony while on probation. From the story:

An officer escorted him out of the courtroom and back downstairs to return to Rikers. It no longer mattered whether his mother could find the money to bail him out. The Department of Probation had filed a “violation of probation” against him—standard procedure when someone on probation is indicted on a new violent felony—and the judge had remanded him without bail.
Click to expand...

He was offered plea deals, but so what? It required a guilty plea. We have to assume he was innocent, so expecting someone to plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit, or offering it as a mitigating fact, makes no sense.
 
americanwoman said:
FYI on your #1 some states, like Nebraska, don't have bail bondsmen and you have to post a percentage of the bail yourself, which is then returned if you are convicted or found not guilty. For some it's just not that easy to come up with the money and if you don't have anyone to borrow it from your screwed. I don't know about how NY works though.
Click to expand...

That's along the same principal, although Nebraska does have a couple of bailbondsmen.

Omaha Bailbonds in Omaha, NE

Maybe they're setting bond too high? Who knows, but there don't seem to be as many people working in the judicial system as are needed to take care of the criminal element.

It be nice if we could expedite some of this - but no one really wants the criminals back on the streets. Kids like this one - kids who are already in foster care because they have dysfunctional families - don't have a chance.

" Adolescents who had been in foster care were nearly four times more likely to have attempted suicide than other youth (Pilowsky & Wu, 2006)."

That's where the problem started - and most likely what contributed to the young man's suicide.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom