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Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

You're right, I know nothing of the circumstances surrounding this case. I am aware of people in my city being in jail for a year or a year and a half before trial (not 3) but that's usually people facing either a very serious charge or many charges and prison time is highly likely anyway.

There are many, actually:
As of late March, over 400 people had been locked up for more than two years without being convicted of a crime, according to city data that is to be released publicly for the first time. And there are currently a half-dozen people at Rikers who have been waiting on pending cases for more than six years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/n...kers-population-tackle-court-delays.html?_r=1

What happened to this young man was wrong, but it's not an isolated case, and, since he was released nearly three years ago - his suicide was very likely not related.
 
Why should I gather the facts when you and the OP claim that the justice system is to blame. You claim it was wrong for him to be in jail for 3 years without a trial - so prove why it's wrong and not perfectly legal.

Only straw man being paraded around here is the one that says the justice department is to blame.


Sixth amendment to the United States constitution.
 
You're right, I know nothing of the circumstances surrounding this case. I am aware of people in my city being in jail for a year or a year and a half before trial (not 3) but that's usually people facing either a very serious charge or many charges and prison time is highly likely anyway.

The speedy trial thing actually has a whole line of case law and it's a very specific analysis as to whether someone was denied one or not and the defenses actions that cause delay do play a part. Right now, only the defendant is the one with a right to a speedy trial (and like every other right, it can be waived). If the concern is people jailed on unadjudicated offenses, would you support giving the state/prosecution the same right to a speedy trial?

On further reflection, i suppose another factor may have been the length of time he spent in solitary. It sounds like he was abused in prison though, which is even more abhorrent for someone who hasn't even had trial.

A speedy trial would only have benefited this kid or anyone in similar position. He might even not be dead now

See the whole idea of 'innocent until proven guilty' and frankly any justice system worthy of the name is you're aren't locked away like a caged animal and abused before even facing a trial. The whole bail system is ****ed. You can practically buy your way out of anything - a soccer player here punched a ref, who fell and hit his head and eventually died, and the player even fled immediately, yet was released on bail after killing someone - but if a poor 16 year old accused of petty theft (a backpack, seriously?), you may as well be guilty until proven innocent. This is why tons of innocent people take plea deals. This kid clung to his innocence, and for that he paid dearly.

That sounds more like something out of "red corner"
 
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Lil' Wayne did a stint at Riker's Island. He spent some time in solitary for having a cell phone. He has said that he will never do a concert in New York. Never.
You know that he had a good attorney. He pleaded guilty. He said that Riker's Island is a hell hole.

The writ of Habeas Corpus bleeds in America.
The guy should have sued. Three years to trial? Two of that combined in solitary, without a conviction. That makes my head spin.

He was 16, how to sue? He didn't even know his basic rights such as a speedy trial i'm sure. Minors have to be protected, and that includes those accused of crimes

I'm sure his family will sue the piss out of them though
 
Innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent. Your logic is that of the 16th century where even our founding fathers men of 17th wrote against . You implies that somebody at the time who was a teenager who spent two cumulatively yearsout of 3 in solitary confinement which is a method of torture used to get information from suspected terrorist delayed his trial and endured beatings is not only inane but undermines this issue as it is not the first time this has happened.Cancer victim kept in solitary confinement for 2 years without trial wins millions ? RT USA

i have no idea who you're talking to here
 
On further reflection, i suppose another factor may have been the length of time he spent in solitary. It sounds like he was abused in prison though, which is even more abhorrent for someone who hasn't even had trial.

A speedy trial would only have benefited this kid or anyone in similar position. He might even not be dead now

See the whole idea of 'innocent until proven guilty' and frankly any justice system worthy of the name is you're aren't locked away like a caged animal and abused before even facing a trial. The whole bail system is ****ed. You can practically buy your way out of anything - a soccer player here punched a ref, who fell and hit his head and eventually died, and the player even fled immediately, yet was released on bail after killing someone - but if a poor 16 year old accused of petty theft (a backpack, seriously?), you may as well be guilty until proven innocent. This is why tons of innocent people take plea deals. This kid clung to his innocence, and for that he paid dearly.

That sounds more like something out of "red corner"

Robbery is more than petty theft and I think minimizing or mischaracterizing it is dishonest - not saying that about you at all, but rather that's what presented as the gospel truth, when it's not really the full story and just intended to further inflame. Robbery typically involves a threat of bodily harm or an actual assault committed in the course of committing theft. In the case of the stolen backpack, either D was accused of threatening someone to get it or of actually taking it off someone's body and causing injury doing so (as I say, those would have to be the nature of the allegation - not saying, at all, whether it's true or not).
 
This video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American Justice System. Americans should be glad these less than humans are off the streets.
Cover blown.
 
....Is the justice system responsible for the seeming lack of care his family got him for the 2 and a half years he was out of jail after the charges were dropped?...

He should have been compensated for the years of his life that he lost and offered counseling.

Not the justice system, but society has a responsibility to help mentally ill people who can not afford care. Mental health care is extremely difficult to access in the USA if you can't afford to pay for it. Even people who attempt suicide are routinely sent home from the hospital just a few days after being hospitalized.
 
Robbery is more than petty theft and I think minimizing or mischaracterizing it is dishonest - not saying that about you at all, but rather that's what presented as the gospel truth, when it's not really the full story and just intended to further inflame. Robbery typically involves a threat of bodily harm or an actual assault committed in the course of committing theft. In the case of the stolen backpack, either D was accused of threatening someone to get it or of actually taking it off someone's body and causing injury doing so (as I say, those would have to be the nature of the allegation - not saying, at all, whether it's true or not).

I see, so that justifies his fate. If there was injury he might've been charged with assault as well.

Sounds like run of the mill bullying, which you know i can't stand, but i find physical separation from their victims or expulsion to be more of a proper fix, not being tortured in freaking riker's island for 3 years.

Justice and rehabilitation are kind of central tenets when we're talking about overhauling the justice system. At least we can agree there's not much chance he'll be rehabilitated when he's dead
 
I see, so that justifies his fate. If there was injury he might've been charged with assault as well.

Sounds like run of the mill bullying, which you know i can't stand, but i find physical separation from their victims or expulsion to be more of a proper fix, not being tortured in freaking riker's island for 3 years.

Justice and rehabilitation are kind of central tenets when we're talking about overhauling the justice system. At least we can agree there's not much chance he'll be rehabilitated when he's dead

Actually recidivism rates among the dead are extremely low, so death could be argued to be the ultimate rehabilitator.
 
Actually recidivism rates among the dead are extremely low, so death could be argued to be the ultimate rehabilitator.

Why wait then? Let's not bother with trials and just execute anyone accused of the slightest offense. Stalin only got it half right!

But seriously, that made me laugh because in a very macabre kind of way, what you're saying is true. No more (alleged) backpack theft for this punk
 
This video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American Justice System. Americans should be glad these less than humans are off the streets.
I didn't know you were a racist. Good to know.
 
If you want to support and excuse the young black men portrayed in this video, go right ahead. I called it as I saw it. Sometimes the truth is brutal but that doesn't mean it should be suppressed.
You called human beings "less than human." That's actually the exact opposite of the truth.
 
Being jailed for years without trial isn't even a new thing . This deplorable act of abuse in power and neglect is an issue that all people of all skin tones must address .Where the right to a speedy trial is being disregarded ,and in this case at the cost of incarcerating an innocent male.

As usual... its all about the money.

John Oliver: The U.S. Bail System Screws the Poor, Rewards Reality TV

John Oliver, HBO’s best critic of America’s broken-ass political and economic systems since The Wire, turned his attention this week to one of the brokenest-ass systems of all: the way we handle bail for people accused of crimes.

Oliver throws up an alarming stat from New Jersey, circa 2013, where nearly 40% of inmates were locked up solely because they were unable to make bail while awaiting trial. If you dig a little deeper into the report he’s citing, you’ll find their average time languishing in lockup is 10 months. And that’s without being found guilty of any crime.

In fact, many of them just plead guilty (even if they’re not) just so they can get out, rather than waiting in jail for a trial date and staying locked up while they try to fight the case. This, of course, has the downside of making them pay fines (which we’ve established they probably can’t afford), go back to jail, and carry the stigma of being a “convicted criminal” for life.​
 
It does if the reason for the extended stay in jail was at his or his agent's bidding.

You seem satisfied to be comfortable in your ignorance and let that smugly guide your way. I'd prefer to have all the facts before I draw any conclusions. The one fact we are aware of, however, is that his suicide came more than 2 and a half years after he was released from the jail. Blaming the justice system for his suicide is thus a stretch at best and more appropriately a convenient scapegoat for all the people in his immediate life who seem to have failed him.

I didn't know you had mastered the ways of psychology. Great, let's have a little conversation. I'll invite a mental health professional to the conversation so that they can give us their point of view once this conversation gets a little further along. However, I doubt you'll stick around that long.

Would you say that psychological disorders born out of strenuous situations end when that person is no longer in that situation? How long does PTSD last? Does it stop being an issue after 2 years? What about depression? When does it end? From what I understand depression works by episode. Do you believe it unlikely that this person may have seen fine for the first year and then developed a depressive episode later on? Seeing as how much you understand of psychological illnesses, I was hoping you could clear these up.

Furthermore, does your stance apply to every situation regarding such situations and suicide? For example, say a soldier develops PTSD while in Iraq. If they commit suicide 2 years later, can their experiences throughout the war no longer be blamed for their suicide because of how long it has been? Or do we blame his wife for 'failing' him even though she may not be mental health professional?

Say a child is molested by his uncle for 3 years and commits suicide 2 years after the last incident. Did the parent fail the child or does the child's suicide lay squarely on the shoulders of those who actually caused him to have such feelings in the first place?

Because I know for a fact that you won't have a consistent answer to these questions, it seems to me like you're trying to scapegoat pretty much everything in this kid's life except for the very system which incarcerated him, denied him a speedy trial, and then basically forgot about him until the public outcry was way too much. That's just what's obvious to everyone in this thread though.
 
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He should have been compensated for the years of his life that he lost and offered counseling.

Not the justice system, but society has a responsibility to help mentally ill people who can not afford care. Mental health care is extremely difficult to access in the USA if you can't afford to pay for it. Even people who attempt suicide are routinely sent home from the hospital just a few days after being hospitalized.

Again, I've seen no one who's posted evidence that the time he spent in jail was the sole result of the justice system and not partially related to him and to his representatives. Did he seek bail? Was he denied bail and if so why - prior incidents? Did he seek a speedy trial or did he and his representatives delay trial? How many times did he appear in court related to the charges? Were the charges held over on his counsel's request? In the 2 and a half years since release, did he or his family seek compensation? Help for him? Care for him?

Why was he in solitary confinement? Was it for his own safety or because of his actions in jail? In the video, in the gang beating, he is the one who threw the first punch. In the video, he said something to the first guard before he was taken down - what did he say?

Do you have answers for any of this? Or is it just convenient for the justice system to be blamed for a family failing their child and a child taking his own life? One thing we can agree on, I presume, is that his family will be front and center now as they try to collect lottery winnings off the death of their son.
 
You called human beings "less than human." That's actually the exact opposite of the truth.

The actions of the black youth in this video kicking, stomping, beating, etc. another human being is not human behaviour - I see by your avatar that you're totally blind to black violence against fellow blacks. It's convenient for you to ignore or excuse it. Too bad - your excusing such behaviour is a big part of the problem.
 
The actions of the black youth in this video kicking, stomping, beating, etc. another human being is not human behaviour
It is, quite literally, human behavior. LOL. Your racism is noted though. Guess you couldn't hold it in any longer, eh?
 
Kalief Browder, a young man from New York City who had gained national renown in recent years as a symbol of America's broken criminal justice system, took his own life this weekend, according to a report from The New Yorker. He was 22.

The Death Of Kalief Browder Is An 'American Tragedy Almost Beyond Words'

They broke his mind keeping him in solitary. He was too young to survive such torture. RIP. They won't hurt you anymore. What can I say...I'm not afraid of ISIS, I'm not afraid of Russia, I'm not afraid of Boko Haram, I'm not afraid of parachute jump. I'm afraid of our American Justice System. There are many people responsible for this young death. Unfortunately, l doubt that any of them will ever pay a price.

I am a skeptic. When I see stories like this I always look for the other side of the story. There isn't another side to this story. This poor kid was abused by the system in a way that should not happen in this country. Those responsible should be punished.
 
I am a skeptic. When I see stories like this I always look for the other side of the story. There isn't another side to this story. This poor kid was abused by the system in a way that should not happen in this country. Those responsible should be punished.

Don't you get it? If you spend 3 years in prison, you NEVER receive a trial and you're come out with some mental illness, there is a possibility that this may all be your fault. That's why CanadaJohn is asking all of his questions. He's really concerned with the possibility that somehow, this may all be that kid's fault and the system itself may not be to blame for it. As we all know, New York's correctional facilities are top notch, its bureaucracy expedites all cases and its police officers are rarely (if ever!) caught misusing their authority.
 
I am a skeptic. When I see stories like this I always look for the other side of the story. There isn't another side to this story. This poor kid was abused by the system in a way that should not happen in this country. Those responsible should be punished.

True, the boy got a rotten deal. But, and this is the big BUT - you have to be able to draw a correlation between his time in jail and his suicide. Since there are HUNDREDS of inmates sitting in NYC jails under the SAME conditions, no trials, some for longer than this boy, yet the come out and do not commit suicide, how can you prove the correlation. What happened to the boy was legal - and this incident, hopefully - will bring about a change in the system. You cannot punish law enforcement for following the rules. You can, however, advocate for changing the rules.
 
Don't you get it? If you spend 3 years in prison, you NEVER receive a trial and you're come out with some mental illness, there is a possibility that this may all be your fault. That's why CanadaJohn is asking all of his questions. He's really concerned with the possibility that somehow, this may all be that kid's fault and the system itself may not be to blame for it. As we all know, New York's correctional facilities are top notch, its bureaucracy expedites all cases and its police officers are rarely (if ever!) caught misusing their authority.

Don't I get what? WTF are you talking about, or are you just talking to hear yourself?
 
True, the boy got a rotten deal. But, and this is the big BUT - you have to be able to draw a correlation between his time in jail and his suicide. Since there are HUNDREDS of inmates sitting in NYC jails under the SAME conditions, no trials, some for longer than this boy, yet the come out and do not commit suicide, how can you prove the correlation. What happened to the boy was legal - and this incident, hopefully - will bring about a change in the system. You cannot punish law enforcement for following the rules. You can, however, advocate for changing the rules.

To the best of my knowledge defendants are due a speedy trial. In Florida that's actually what they call it. There are time limits for arraignment, a bail hearing and trial. Three years is outside the limits of speedy trial. If I have an issue with this it's that someone didn't follow the rules for civil trial.
 
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