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U.S. Soldier Who Killed 16 Afghans feels guilt and fear [W:63]

jmotivator said:
The old Testament is not Christian, there were no Christians before the birth of Christ. If you want to know what laws CHRISTIANS are meant to follow you read the New Testament, which the book of Matthew is apart of.



[citation needed]

Actually, don't bother, you are absurdly wrong. The ideology with the highest body count by far in human history is Communism.
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1. Is the Old Testament in the King James Bible? So you're saying if I go to a church on Sunday and listen to a preacher speak they will never quote a verse of the Old Testament.

2. It's impossible to substantiate my claim hence the term "probably", because the list is so vast and full of history there is no way we can ever actually prove my claim to be true or false, which is why it's more of a "normative claim" based on judgement as opposed to a "positive claim" based on fact. I emphasis "killed more people probably then anything besides disease" the truth is we don't have an exact number of how many people have died from Christianity. Communism is estimated 60 to 100 million, but we don't know how accurate that number is how many actually were sentenced to death by the state as opposed to failed policy, etc etc.

Here's a list of a brief history of all the deaths that were sanctioned and ordered by the church or Christian extremists Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades

Again, please explain to me how I am wrong in asserting that Christians kill a lot of people and the Islam is not the only religion that historically has condoned the killings of people.
 
Libertie76 said:
1. Is the Old Testament in the King James Bible? So you're saying if I go to a church on Sunday and listen to a preacher speak they will never quote a verse of the Old Testament.
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The New Testament is the law that Christians are asked to follow, as I showed you with the Matthew quote, the New Testament significantly changes the responsibilities of Christians, and eliminates the Eye for an Eye as you understand it.

The Old Testament is like the Magna Carta in comparison to the US Constitution, it is there as a historical context, not as the law. The only law of the old testament that carries forward unchanged by the New Testament are the Ten Commandments, and I don't see anything in them that tells you to kill homosexuals.

Remember that Jesus taught "let those who are without sin cast the first stone", meaning that no one is better than another, and nobody by God is qualified to judge people on their sins. The Inquisitions and the Witch trials were in direct violation of Jesus' teachings.

2. It's impossible to substantiate my claim hence the term "probably", because the list is so vast and full of history there is no way we can ever actually prove my claim to be true or false, which is why it's more of a "normative claim" based on judgement as opposed to a "positive claim" based on fact. I emphasis "killed more people probably then anything besides disease" the truth is we don't have an exact number of how many people have died from Christianity.[/quote]

Translation: You made it up.

Communism is estimated 60 to 100 million, but we don't know how accurate that number is how many actually were sentenced to death by the state as opposed to failed policy, etc etc.
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It's closer to 150 million, and you would be hard pressed trying to argue that deaths from "failed policies" shouldn't count since the Communists states kept pushing failed ideologies while the populations died.

Here's a list of a brief history of all the deaths that were sanctioned and ordered by the church or Christian extremists Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades
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Reading through the list I stopped when I got to this passage:

Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered.


What kind of ahistoric nimrod compiled this list? The Battle of Belgrade was a Ottoman Siege of a Christian city as part of an Ottoman invasion. How do you hold the Christians responsible for the death of Turkish invaders?

Then they try and attribute the Rwandan massacre of Christianity because of reports that two nuns were accused of helping the Hutus, ignoring that the the biggest opposition to the genocide in Rwanda was from the Christian churches and priests.

It becomes clear that the author of your list is not someone to be trusted with a clear retelling of history. :roll:

Again, please explain to me how I am wrong in asserting that Christians kill a lot of people and the Islam is not the only religion that historically has condoned the killings of people.
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I told you already that Christianity doesn't condone murder as you have argued, and where Christians have committed murder they weren't following Christian teachings.

Islam is different because where as Jesus taught to turn away from the brutality of the past, Mohammed taught to kill, and indeed killed many people himself.
 
fmw said:
Neither judaism or christianity claim a right to kill.
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Apparently you don't know the god of the Old Testament very well do you?
 
jmotivator said:
The New Testament is the law that Christians are asked to follow, as I showed you with the Matthew quote, the New Testament significantly changes the responsibilities of Christians, and eliminates the Eye for an Eye as you understand it.

The Old Testament is like the Magna Carta in comparison to the US Constitution, it is there as a historical context, not as the law. The only law of the old testament that carries forward unchanged by the New Testament are the Ten Commandments, and I don't see anything in them that tells you to kill homosexuals.

Remember that Jesus taught "let those who are without sin cast the first stone", meaning that no one is better than another, and nobody by God is qualified to judge people on their sins. The Inquisitions and the Witch trials were in direct violation of Jesus' teachings.

2. It's impossible to substantiate my claim hence the term "probably", because the list is so vast and full of history there is no way we can ever actually prove my claim to be true or false, which is why it's more of a "normative claim" based on judgement as opposed to a "positive claim" based on fact. I emphasis "killed more people probably then anything besides disease" the truth is we don't have an exact number of how many people have died from Christianity.

Translation: You made it up.



It's closer to 150 million, and you would be hard pressed trying to argue that deaths from "failed policies" shouldn't count since the Communists states kept pushing failed ideologies while the populations died.



Reading through the list I stopped when I got to this passage:

Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered.


What kind of ahistoric nimrod compiled this list? The Battle of Belgrade was a Ottoman Siege of a Christian city as part of an Ottoman invasion. How do you hold the Christians responsible for the death of Turkish invaders?

Then they try and attribute the Rwandan massacre of Christianity because of reports that two nuns were accused of helping the Hutus, ignoring that the the biggest opposition to the genocide in Rwanda was from the Christian churches and priests.

It becomes clear that the author of your list is not someone to be trusted with a clear retelling of history. :roll:



I told you already that Christianity doesn't condone murder as you have argued, and where Christians have committed murder they weren't following Christian teachings.

Islam is different because where as Jesus taught to turn away from the brutality of the past, Mohammed taught to kill, and indeed killed many people himself.
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So Islam is wrong for doing it.... but when shown Christians have done it in the past.... you chalk it off to "They weren't real christians"

Typical.... :roll:
 
Caine said:
So Islam is wrong for doing it.... but when shown Christians have done it in the past.... you chalk it off to "They weren't real christians"

Typical.... :roll:
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No, I am saying that blaming Christian sins on Christianity when the Bible tells them not to is invalid. Islam is different because those who kill in the name of Allah are doing what Mohammed did.

IF Jesus spread Christianity by the sword, overrunning and decapitating those who would not convert then you may have a point, but he didn't.
 
jmotivator said:
No, I am saying that blaming Christian sins on Christianity when the Bible tells them not to is invalid. Islam is different because those who kill in the name of Allah are doing what Mohammed did.

IF Jesus spread Christianity by the sword you may have a point, but he didn't.
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He didn't spread Christianity by the sword....

He left that up to the Catholic Church.
 
jmotivator said:
The New Testament is the law that Christians are asked to follow, as I showed you with the Matthew quote, the New Testament significantly changes the responsibilities of Christians, and eliminates the Eye for an Eye as you understand it.

The Old Testament is like the Magna Carta in comparison to the US Constitution, it is there as a historical context, not as the law. The only law of the old testament that carries forward unchanged by the New Testament are the Ten Commandments, and I don't see anything in them that tells you to kill homosexuals.

Remember that Jesus taught "let those who are without sin cast the first stone", meaning that no one is better than another, and nobody by God is qualified to judge people on their sins. The Inquisitions and the Witch trials were in direct violation of Jesus' teachings.

2. It's impossible to substantiate my claim hence the term "probably", because the list is so vast and full of history there is no way we can ever actually prove my claim to be true or false, which is why it's more of a "normative claim" based on judgement as opposed to a "positive claim" based on fact. I emphasis "killed more people probably then anything besides disease" the truth is we don't have an exact number of how many people have died from Christianity.
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Translation: You made it up.



It's closer to 150 million, and you would be hard pressed trying to argue that deaths from "failed policies" shouldn't count since the Communists states kept pushing failed ideologies while the populations died.



Reading through the list I stopped when I got to this passage:

Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered.


What kind of ahistoric nimrod compiled this list? The Battle of Belgrade was a Ottoman Siege of a Christian city as part of an Ottoman invasion. How do you hold the Christians responsible for the

Islam is different because where as Jesus taught to turn away from the brutality of the past, Mohammed taught to kill, and indeed killed many people himself.[/QUOTE]

1. You ignored my question, if I go to a church on Sunday will a preacher quote the Old Testament

2. Does the King James Bible have to Old Testament, yes or no

3. I clarified that my argument is subjective with the term probably considering " it's impossible to substantiate my claim... Because the history [of Christianity] is so long", just as it is a subjective measurement on how many people communism has killed. We have more accurate estimation of communism because records and entire civilizations haven't been destroyed So, how many did Communism kill? - The Commentator according to that text it's 100 million, 1/3 less then your 150 million. Now please answer that question, does this obvious asymmetric record of killing prove that historic calculations are in fact very subjective?

4. For your battle of Belgrad question that is according to german historian and scholar karlheinz deschener, hence the reference bar.

For your other objection to the Rwanda massacre that is according to a newscast, blatantly referenced in the article, s2 aktuell, germany

5. You ignored the over lieing fact that Christianity has bred extremism, the Catholic Church has validated the right to kill, which brings back to the entire point you attempt to refute. Which is subjectively every culture has a reason and designates a right to kill someone else and no matter what it is you attempt to prove you can not disprove this fact, and Christianity has probably killed more people then anything else in history. Can I prove this, no, because the amount of people that Christianity has killed is unrecordable, especially since it's entirely subjective.

Example : pope outlaws cats because they are "mediums of the devil" and thus the rat infestation during the bubonic plague explodes causing a ton more deaths then would have been with cats. Can we accurately decide how many more deaths would have resulted if the pope never did this, or compare it to something else? There is no possible way.

However, in your estimates about communism you would attribute that to communisms ideology. Which I think is the worst ideology in the history of humanity because of sheer stupidity, however this shows how subjective history is. Which is why I said "probably"
 
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Caine said:
Apparently you don't know the god of the Old Testament very well do you?
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Never met him. But I'm not talking about the old testament. I'm talking about the present time.
 
Libertie76 said:
What about Christian identity who reserve the right to kill homosexuals and people who aren't white Protestants or Talmudic zionists who believe in the ability to kill non Jewish goyim because they aren't real people, but rather cattle?

Remember the holocaust was a reality of our grandfathers, every single religion has an extremist sect to it no matter what the religion is. The problem is, that due to our invasion / occupation in places like Iraq Afghanistan, Iran, Egypt, Syria, libya etc. we increase the extremism of "anti infidel" belief.

A majority of Islamic people don't believe in killing Christians or Jews, only a few. Just like a majority of Christians and Jews don't believe in killing Islamic people or each other but certain sects do
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Pay attention folks. I didn't say people don't kill each other. I said the only religion of which I am aware that encourages killing today is Islam. If there is another one, let me know. Stop talking about the past.
 
fmw said:
Pay attention folks. I didn't say people don't kill each other. I said the only religion of which I am aware that encourages killing today is Islam. If there is another one, let me know. Stop talking about the past.
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Talmudic Zionism, and Christian identity like I said
 
fmw said:
Well, you are wrong.
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* “If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b) there's a Talmudic Zionist quote

And Christian identity has boughten us things like the kkk...
 
Libertie76 said:
* “If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b) there's a Talmudic Zionist quote

And Christian identity has boughten us things like the kkk...
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You're still living in the past. You are trying to say to me that present day judaism encourages killing and I know better. What does the KKK have to do with christianity encouraging killing? Answer. Nothing. It is an illegal racist group not a christian religion. Hang in there. You will get there eventually.
 
Libertie76 said:
Do you honestly believe the afghani invasion was a way to spread democracy?

Even if it was, what gives us the right to kill anyone in our perceived ideal political structure?
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ISIS is willing to die for their beliefs.

What are we willing to die for? so far we don't want to send anybody to fight and die. who is going to win? Isis who wants to die for their cause or the ones who don't want to die for any reason??

What gives ISIS the right to kill anyone who doesn't believe like we do??
 
Libertie76 said:
* “If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b) there's a Talmudic Zionist quote

And Christian identity has boughten us things like the kkk...
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And the Army of God... Abortion Terrorists.
 
fmw said:
You're still living in the past. You are trying to say to me that present day judaism encourages killing and I know better. What does the KKK have to do with christianity encouraging killing? Answer. Nothing. It is an illegal racist group not a christian religion. Hang in there. You will get there eventually.
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And not all Muslims are encouraged to kill either..... just the radicals.
 
Red Crow said:
ISIS is willing to die for their beliefs.

What are we willing to die for? so far we don't want to send anybody to fight and die. who is going to win? Isis who wants to die for their cause or the ones who don't want to die for any reason??

What gives ISIS the right to kill anyone who doesn't believe like we do??
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I don't agree with sending U.S. Soldiers to fight and die in foreign lands for foreign freedom, while those foreign lands contain people who are more than capable of fighting and dying for themselves.
 
Libertie76 said:
1. You ignored my question, if I go to a church on Sunday will a preacher quote the Old Testament
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It's a loaded question. I stated that Christian law is drawn from the New Testament, not the old Testament, though I guess I should have thrown in the Ten Commandments as well.

So on that same note, if you go to Church on Sunday do you expect to hear the pastor order you to kill homosexuals?

2. Does the King James Bible have to Old Testament, yes or no
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It's a stupid question, Libertie76. Do Christians Churches teach Leviticus law of New Testament law, yes or no?

3. I clarified that my argument is subjective with the term probably considering " it's impossible to substantiate my claim... Because the history [of Christianity] is so long", just as it is a subjective measurement on how many people communism has killed. We have more accurate estimation of communism because records and entire civilizations haven't been destroyed So, how many did Communism kill? - The Commentator according to that text it's 100 million, 1/3 less then your 150 million. Now please answer that question, does this obvious asymmetric record of killing prove that historic calculations are in fact very subjective?
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So you made a claim you know you couldn't support with facts? That is also known as lying.

4. For your battle of Belgrad question that is according to german historian and scholar karlheinz deschener, hence the reference bar.
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He sites that as his source, but doesn't actually elaborate. So FYI: the Battle of Belgrade was a siege by the Ottoman Turks in their attempt to conquer Europe. They had their ass handed to them.
For your other objection to the Rwanda massacre that is according to a newscast, blatantly referenced in the article, s2 aktuell, germany
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And? He is trying to blame "Christianity" for the actions of TWO Nuns when the Christian churches in Rwanda were the loudest opposition before, during and after the atrocities.

Should I blame the deaths of 73 million in China, for 50+ million in the USSR on "atheism"?

5. You ignored the over lieing fact that Christianity has bred extremism, the Catholic Church has validated the right to kill, which brings back to the entire point you attempt to refute. Which is subjectively every culture has a reason and designates a right to kill someone else and no matter what it is you attempt to prove you can not disprove this fact, and Christianity has probably killed more people then anything else in history. Can I prove this, no, because the amount of people that Christianity has killed is unrecordable, especially since it's entirely subjective.
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No, false. They most definitely didn't kill more people throughout history. You keep making a "probably" claim to something even though you admit you don't have any facts to back it up. You are lying. "Probably" would require at least some evidence that you claim you don't have.

Example : pope outlaws cats because they are "mediums of the devil" and thus the rat infestation during the bubonic plague explodes causing a ton more deaths then would have been with cats. Can we accurately decide how many more deaths would have resulted if the pope never did this, or compare it to something else? There is no possible way.
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The Vox in Rama vilified black cats, not all cats. Outlawing black cats was not the cause of the spike in rat populations. Furthermore, the theory has been dropped since current research shows that the European rat populations were even more devastated by black plague than the human populations, and the rat flea dependence on live rats made rats an unlikely vector of the disease in Europe. The accepted vector of plague in Europe was foreign trade. People who have an irrational hatred of Christianity and Catholicism stopped reading after they found the story they wanted. :roll:

However, in your estimates about communism you would attribute that to communisms ideology. Which I think is the worst ideology in the history of humanity because of sheer stupidity, however this shows how subjective history is. Which is why I said "probably"
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Your use of "probably" is a false valuation of the evidence you admit is lacking.
 
Caine said:
He didn't spread Christianity by the sword....

He left that up to the Catholic Church.
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Nope. The Catholic Church existed and spread for 800 hundred years before Charlemagne was crowned and put an army behind the ideology.
 
Caine said:
I don't agree with sending U.S. Soldiers to fight and die in foreign lands for foreign freedom, while those foreign lands contain people who are more than capable of fighting and dying for themselves.
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It would work just fine to do that if people abroad didn't hate us. ISIS wants to kill EVERYBODY AND DOMINATE EVERYBODY just like Hitler did.
I don't know if you are aware, but.. once upon a time Arabs dominated most of Europe and Northern Africa, and now ISIS thinks that they can do it again and dominate the entire world. This cancer will spread if we don't kill it and if we don't kill it, will kill us.
 
jmotivator said:
It's a loaded question. I stated that Christian law is drawn from the New Testament, not the old Testament, though I guess I should have thrown in the Ten Commandments as well.

So on that same note, if you go to Church on Sunday do you expect to hear the pastor order you to kill homosexuals?



It's a stupid question, Libertie76. Do Christians Churches teach Leviticus law of New Testament law, yes or no?



So you made a claim you know you couldn't support with facts? That is also known as lying.



He sites that as his source, but doesn't actually elaborate. So FYI: the Battle of Belgrade was a siege by the Ottoman Turks in their attempt to conquer Europe. They had their ass handed to them.


And? He is trying to blame "Christianity" for the actions of TWO Nuns when the Christian churches in Rwanda were the loudest opposition before, during and after the atrocities.

Should I blame the deaths of 73 million in China, for 50+ million in the USSR on "atheism"?



No, false. They most definitely didn't kill more people throughout history. You keep making a "probably" claim to something even though you admit you don't have any facts to back it up. You are lying. "Probably" would require at least some evidence that you claim you don't have.



The Vox in Rama vilified black cats, not all cats. Outlawing black cats was not the cause of the spike in rat populations. Furthermore, the theory has been dropped since current research shows that the European rat populations were even more devastated by black plague than the human populations, and the rat flea dependence on live rats made rats an unlikely vector of the disease in Europe. The accepted vector of plague in Europe was foreign trade. People who have an irrational hatred of Christianity and Catholicism stopped reading after they found the story they wanted. :roll:



Your use of "probably" is a false valuation of the evidence you admit is lacking.
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1. So is that a yes? Christian preachers will speak from the Old Testament? Not a church I'm aware of, but I do see people using the Old Testament to prove homosexuality is a sin all the time

2. It's not stupid it's in the book of Christianity, the rules of being able to kill other people, meaning Christianity through the Old Testament authorizes or condones killing rough certain sects just like Islam

3. Ummm fact Christianity is the reason millions of people have died, in comparison to other religions or other authoritarian factors is just a speculative judgement considering there's no way I can prove the amount of people that have actually lost their lives due to Christianity's just as there is no possible way you can prove how many people have lost their lives from communism

4. He gives page numbers and a book as the reference... Like I said history can be subjective so he could use a variety of reasons to say they lost their lives due to Christianity. Fact, however, there was a catholic inquisition, millions lost their live in the European and North American conquest.

5. You could very much so. Saying that doesn't disprove my initial theory that "every culture has a subjective value of life and gives the right to kill certain people for a variety of reasons, even Christianity in certain sects of the modern religion"

6. I have seen scholars claim 250 million people died from Christianity throughout history. Can I prove this true beyond a reasonable doubt? No, can you prove communism has killed more then 100 million people no. It's a speculative number and the fact remains Christianity has definitely killed millions and millions of people you can not deny this fact

7. Vox I'm Roma = a papal bull issued by THE POPE. Your link basically says there could be more to it then we know as to why the Black Plague spread so quickly throughout Europe. I'm not saying the Catholic Church is to blame for the Black Plague, I'm saying that's how speculative and subjective researchers can be in understanding history, meaning someone who really hates the church will say it's the church's fault . I was using it as a point to prove how subjective history can actually be especially considering there are so many records that have been lost

8. My probably is me saying there is no way I can factually support my claim, however historically speaking christianity has caused millions and millions of deaths over thousands of years....

9. Has Christianity, historically, condemned and murdered people in the name of god yes or no.
 
jmotivator said:
Nope. The Catholic Church existed and spread for 800 hundred years before Charlemagne was crowned and put an army behind the ideology.
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Luke 19:27 "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"
 
Libertie76 said:
1. So is that a yes? Christian preachers will speak from the Old Testament? Not a church I'm aware of, but I do see people using the Old Testament to prove homosexuality is a sin all the time
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It isn't a yes or a no, your question was loaded and had nothing to do with your initial claim. You want to take the Old Testament on its own to show what Christianity says about killing homosexuals and ignore the new Testament that clearly states that your interpretation is bogus. I mean, maybe you should be arguing this with people who are Jewish or Muslim as their religious texts don't significantly change the Old Testament with later revelations, but your ignorant focus on the Old Testament as Christian law is false.

2. It's not stupid it's in the book of Christianity, the rules of being able to kill other people, meaning Christianity through the Old Testament authorizes or condones killing rough certain sects just like Islam
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Again, it is stupid because you are taking the old law and trying to apply it to Christians who have a New Testament to guide them. As my Matthew quote clearly shows the Old Testament "Eye for an Eye" is not the law for Christians.

3. Ummm fact Christianity is the reason millions of people have died, in comparison to other religions or other authoritarian factors is just a speculative judgement considering there's no way I can prove the amount of people that have actually lost their lives due to Christianity's just as there is no possible way you can prove how many people have lost their lives from communism
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Ummm... you seem to have a problem with the English language. You want to claim it is a "fact" that Christianity killed millions of people and then argue that you can't prove it because it is speculative.

I shouldn;'t have to explain this to you, but... speculation isn't fact.

4. He gives page numbers and a book as the reference... Like I said history can be subjective so he could use a variety of reasons to say they lost their lives due to Christianity. Fact, however, there was a catholic inquisition, millions lost their live in the European and North American conquest.
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You can't present evidence that the book cited actually says what he is claiming, I am telling you the historical FACTS about the Battle of Belgrade. Muslims attacked the Christian City of Belgrade and were routed. This is not a Christian atrocity as the nimrod you quoted wants to claim.

5. You could very much so. Saying that doesn't disprove my initial theory that "every culture has a subjective value of life and gives the right to kill certain people for a variety of reasons, even Christianity in certain sects of the modern religion"
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No, you can't. You are trying to prove the rule with exceptions. It's a logical dead end.
 
Libertie76 said:
6. I have seen scholars claim 250 million people died from Christianity throughout history. Can I prove this true beyond a reasonable doubt? No, can you prove communism has killed more then 100 million people no. It's a speculative number and the fact remains Christianity has definitely killed millions and millions of people you can not deny this fact
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You have made a habit of stating many unverified claims as fact (aka "lying"), that doesn't make them true.


7. Vox I'm Roma = a papal bull issued by THE POPE. Your link basically says there could be more to it then we know as to why the Black Plague spread so quickly throughout Europe. I'm not saying the Catholic Church is to blame for the Black Plague,
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You didn't read my source so stop pretending that you did. You are looking foolish. The outbreaks of the plague throughout Europe have been linked to trade with the Far East. Rats could not be the vector for wide spread plague because the rats and their flees die too quickly from the plague to be a vector. All you are doing is trying to defend an unsupported claim through assumptions about a document you haven't read. That is no way to make a compelling point.

I'm saying that's how speculative and subjective researchers can be in understanding history, meaning someone who really hates the church will say it's the church's fault . I was using it as a point to prove how subjective history can actually be especially considering there are so many records that have been lost
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Do you really not see that YOU are that very someone who "really hates the church" and is making crap up to support their beliefs?

8. My probably is me saying there is no way I can factually support my claim, however historically speaking christianity has caused millions and millions of deaths over thousands of years....
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You can't support the claim but it's true anyway? Your anti-Christianity is looking more like your religion with every post!

9. Has Christianity, historically, condemned and murdered people in the name of god yes or no.
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You are making a QUANTITATIVE claim that you admit you can not back up, stop digging yourself a deeper hole by moving the goalposts.
 
Libertie76 said:
Luke 19:27 "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"
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Do I also have to explain to you what a parable is?
 
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