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Inequality Troubles Americans Across Party Lines, Times/CBS Poll Finds

The Mark said:
Perhaps some of the situations I see are specific to my area then.
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very possibly

some areas of the country are thriving

some are just squeaking by

with my skills, and expertise, i doubt i could make 1/3 of what i make in the detroit area

but i have had headhunters call me inquiring whether or not i was happy from denver, austin, ft myers, sacramento in just the last 6 months

skills will always be the difference....those that have them can write their own ticket in some areas

for the low skill, low educated worker, the company has the power

for the high skills, it varies.....

in my area, average ASE mechanics are making 80k.....good ones 115k

yet you take those skills to some areas, and maybe they make 45-60k

so yes, the area you live matters a great deal

but you can turn the odds in your favor by being the upper tier of whatever you do
 
It troubles me a great deal. America needs more social benefits for its people and more draconian taxes on the top 10%.

This video really pisses off Republicans.

 
mac said:
all self-limiting factors. :shrug:
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Of course that's false. You apparently believe in Garrison Keillor's Lake Wobegon, where are the women are good looking, all the children above average. Effort, will and hard work - stuff we can control - only takes a person so far - evidence is all around us. Not everyone CAN be a top doctor, lawyer, or businessman. The few who rise to the top have, by definition, unique/rare skills or insight or luck or ability, and no amount of education or effort can overcome that.
 
sawdust said:
Trickle down is the only economics. Money doesn't flow from where it's not to wear it is.
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Then why is it that - generally speaking - the greater the income inequality gap, the greater the degree of poverty, and the smaller the income inequality gap, the higher the standard of living of the population?
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Then why is it that - generally speaking - the greater the income inequality gap, the greater the degree of poverty, and the smaller the income inequality gap, the higher the standard of living of the population?
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Those issues are totally unrelated. Median income rises when opportunity increases. Opportunity decreases with over regulation, a sluggish economy and over taxation. The old axiom that it takes money to make money is true, especially when it takes money to overcome the obstacles that government puts in front of entrepreneurs which puts success out of reach for many people who aspire to become business owners.

You can't build anyone up by tearing others down. That's what redistribution schemes do.
 
sawdust said:
Those issues are totally unrelated. Median income rises when opportunity increases. Opportunity decreases with over regulation, a sluggish economy and over taxation. The old axiom that it takes money to make money is true, especially when it takes money to overcome the obstacles that government puts in front of entrepreneurs which puts success out of reach for many people who aspire to become business owners.

You can't build anyone up by tearing others down. That's what redistribution schemes do.
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Really? And you know what? If one just listens to your rhetoric, your logic - which has been the conservative party line since Reagan - it sounds so sensible, so reasonable, doesn't it?

But there's a difference between theory and reality. Try comparing your theory above to the reality of the world:

- All first-world democracies have strong government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation. There are many democracies who have one or two (or none) of those three properties...and these nations are ALL third-world nations.

That is reality. If conservative economic dogma were true, then the above SHOULD have resulted in most or all nations with strong government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation becoming third-world nations...and those nations that do not have all three of those properties should be more successful...but they are not.

Like I said, your rhetoric sounds nice...but all the first-world and third-world democracies prove that rhetoric wrong.
 
gdgyva said:
very possibly

some areas of the country are thriving

some are just squeaking by

with my skills, and expertise, i doubt i could make 1/3 of what i make in the detroit area

but i have had headhunters call me inquiring whether or not i was happy from denver, austin, ft myers, sacramento in just the last 6 months

skills will always be the difference....those that have them can write their own ticket in some areas

for the low skill, low educated worker, the company has the power

for the high skills, it varies.....

in my area, average ASE mechanics are making 80k.....good ones 115k

yet you take those skills to some areas, and maybe they make 45-60k

so yes, the area you live matters a great deal

but you can turn the odds in your favor by being the upper tier of whatever you do
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The thing is, far too many people have jobs which do not pay them enough to do more than break even, sometimes not even that. Not even mentioning those who have stopped working.

It seems wrong somehow for a person to work a full-time job, perhaps even a full AND a part-time job (or in the case of a family, both adults work full-time jobs/multiple jobs) and still not make enough to be considered middle class.

Now, IMO this either means wages are too low...or it means expenses are too high. Perhaps a combo of both.

Of course there are areas of the country which are exceptions to this state...or perhaps the other way around.,,


But either way, it seems to me that too many people do not have sufficient income for their expenses.

Personally, I break even, with a tiny bit extra most of the time for unexpected expenses and such (depends on how much OT I work).

But then, I'm underpaid for the position I work in.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Really? And you know what? If one just listens to your rhetoric, your logic - which has been the conservative party line since Reagan - it sounds so sensible, so reasonable, doesn't it?

But there's a difference between theory and reality. Try comparing your theory above to the reality of the world:

- All first-world democracies have strong government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation. There are many democracies who have one or two (or none) of those three properties...and these nations are ALL third-world nations.

That is reality. If conservative economic dogma were true, then the above SHOULD have resulted in most or all nations with strong government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation becoming third-world nations...and those nations that do not have all three of those properties should be more successful...but they are not.

Like I said, your rhetoric sounds nice...but all the first-world and third-world democracies prove that rhetoric wrong.
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You can't blindly compare first world democracies based on strength of government, tax rates and regulation. There is much more involved and the devil is in the details. I won't make the same blanket claims that you've made. I will say this however. Year after year the United States has been slipping down the rankings of economic freedom. We now rank number twelve behind such power houses and Estonia, Ireland and Chile.

The problem isn't unequal distribution of wealth. It's government forced unequal distribution of opportunity.
 
sawdust said:
You can't blindly compare first world democracies based on strength of government, tax rates and regulation. There is much more involved and the devil is in the details. I won't make the same blanket claims that you've made. I will say this however. Year after year the United States has been slipping down the rankings of economic freedom. We now rank number twelve behind such power houses and Estonia, Ireland and Chile.

The problem isn't unequal distribution of wealth. It's government forced unequal distribution of opportunity.
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Again, guy, show me a first-world democracy that does NOT have all three of the following: strong government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation.

And then tell me why that is.
 
JasperL said:
Of course that's false. You apparently believe in Garrison Keillor's Lake Wobegon, where are the women are good looking, all the children above average. Effort, will and hard work - stuff we can control - only takes a person so far - evidence is all around us. Not everyone CAN be a top doctor, lawyer, or businessman. The few who rise to the top have, by definition, unique/rare skills or insight or luck or ability, and no amount of education or effort can overcome that.
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Failing to become rich due to personal limitations does not make it society's responsibility to step in and raise your standard of living for you.
 
sawdust said:
... I will say this however. Year after year the United States has been slipping down the rankings of economic freedom. We now rank number twelve behind such power houses and Estonia, Ireland and Chile....
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If you believe that the people of Estonia, Ireland and Chile have a better standard of living than Americans, then that's an issue. But if you believe that the standard of living for Americans is higher than in those countries, maybe being at the top of the rankings for economic freedom isn't a good thing.
 
mac said:
Failing to become rich due to personal limitations does not make it society's responsibility to step in and raise your standard of living for you.
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Who is suggesting that everyone should become rich? I must have missed that post.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Again, guy, show me a first-world democracy that does NOT have all three of the following: strong government, high effective taxes, and strong regulation.

And then tell me why that is.
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Why, it's meaningless. We are slipping in the rating of economic freedom and we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Coincidence? I don't think so.
 
imagep said:
If you believe that the people of Estonia, Ireland and Chile have a better standard of living than Americans, then that's an issue. But if you believe that the standard of living for Americans is higher than in those countries, maybe being at the top of the rankings for economic freedom isn't a good thing.
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Didn't say anything about standard of living. I said economic freedom. Look it up.
 
sawdust said:
Why, it's meaningless. We are slipping in the rating of economic freedom and we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Coincidence? I don't think so.
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In other words, you couldn't come up with a good answer, so you threw out a straw man...especially given that our EFFECTIVE corporate tax rate (after all tax breaks and exemptions and whatnot) is less than ONE-THIRD of the official corporate tax rate.

Next time, try to come up with something that's not so easily shot down....
 
sawdust said:
Why, it's meaningless. We are slipping in the rating of economic freedom and we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Coincidence? I don't think so.
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We haven't increased the corporate tax rate recently, so I doubt that there is a connection between us slipping, and the corporate tax rate.

Anyhow, the effective corporate tax rate in the US is actually about average or below average. Apparently we have more deductions, credits, and other special deals than most countries do.
 
sawdust said:
Didn't say anything about standard of living. I said economic freedom. Look it up.
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I could care less about someones definition of economic freedom, unless that economic freedom increases the standard of living.

Anyhow, I find that the income I have as an American, provides me more economic freedom than the lower income I would likely have in most countries.

Now riddle me this, what do Estonia, Ireland and Chile, all have in common that the US doesn't have? **** the riddle, I'll just tell you - universal healthcare. Hmm.
 
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Glen Contrarian said:
In other words, you couldn't come up with a good answer, so you threw out a straw man...especially given that our EFFECTIVE corporate tax rate (after all tax breaks and exemptions and whatnot) is less than ONE-THIRD of the official corporate tax rate.

Next time, try to come up with something that's not so easily shot down....
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No, prosperity and economic liberty depend on more than taxes. Production levels, system of laws, societal values, culture all play into the success of an economy. Belgium is a first world democracy with high tax rates and you could say they have a high standard of living but in general their citizens are complacent because the government takes care of them cradle to grave and takes care of their retirement. As a result they are less productive than we are and their economy isn't as dynamic. If you like the Belgium way, I recommend moving there. It's not for me however.
 
imagep said:
We haven't increased the corporate tax rate recently, so I doubt that there is a connection between us slipping, and the corporate tax rate.

Anyhow, the effective corporate tax rate in the US is actually about average or below average. Apparently we have more deductions, credits, and other special deals than most countries do.
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I believe that the Bush tax cuts sun settled during Obama's first term. Economic freedom also tracks regulation and this administration is the most regulatory administration in my memory. The only thing that rivals is was FDR's failed NRA.
 
sawdust said:
No, prosperity and economic liberty depend on more than taxes. Production levels, system of laws, societal values, culture all play into the success of an economy. Belgium is a first world democracy with high tax rates and you could say they have a high standard of living but in general their citizens are complacent because the government takes care of them cradle to grave and takes care of their retirement. As a result they are less productive than we are and their economy isn't as dynamic. If you like the Belgium way, I recommend moving there. It's not for me however.
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What do you mean by complacent? Their soccer team is arguably better than ours and their prisons aren't overflowing.
 
sawdust said:
No, prosperity and economic liberty depend on more than taxes. Production levels, system of laws, societal values, culture all play into the success of an economy. Belgium is a first world democracy with high tax rates and you could say they have a high standard of living but in general their citizens are complacent because the government takes care of them cradle to grave and takes care of their retirement. As a result they are less productive than we are and their economy isn't as dynamic. If you like the Belgium way, I recommend moving there. It's not for me however.
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Guy, Belgium is not a nation built on heavy industries and a powerful military-industrial complex. If "productive" is what you're looking for, then look at Australia. Or Japan. Or South Korea. Or (and especially) Germany. Are you going to tell me that the people in these nations are so coddled by the government that they've become complacent?

Please, try to refrain from cherry-picking - it's doing you no good at all, and it's easily shot down.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Guy, Belgium is not a nation built on heavy industries and a powerful military-industrial complex. If "productive" is what you're looking for, then look at Australia. Or Japan. Or South Korea. Or (and especially) Germany. Are you going to tell me that the people in these nations are so coddled by the government that they've become complacent?

Please, try to refrain from cherry-picking - it's doing you no good at all, and it's easily shot down.
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I spoke about Belgium because I used to go there frequently and know much about it. I am generalizing about social democracies, many of whom fit into your description of heavily taxed democracies. You haven't shot anything down. You just disagree and nothing I say will change your mind. As they say, your mind is made up and I won't confuse you with facts.
 
reinoe said:
What do you mean by complacent? Their soccer team is arguably better than ours and their prisons aren't overflowing.
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Actually in Belgium they throw you into prison for being homeless. There are free homeless in Belgium but they hide.
 
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