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Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty[W:203]

Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Not meant to be a deterrent it is meant to be a punishment.

So is being drawn and quartered.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

ok.. get rid of it... it doesn't affect me whatsoever...I'm not a murderer.


....we can work towards getting rid of life sentences next... it'll be fun.

Those innocent people that got executed weren't murderers either.

I can flip your slippery slope around. How come until we're executing children for shoplifting, EH THRILLA?
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Those innocent people that got executed weren't murderers either.

I can flip your slippery slope around. How come until we're executing children for shoplifting, EH THRILLA?

what innocent people were executed?

it's not a slippery slope argument... nor would I ever want anyone executed for shoplifting.

i'm not arguing for a lesser sentences for heinous murderers (that would be y'all)... and i'm not arguing for stiffer penalties on shoplifters.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

The funny thing about the DP debate is that there is usually someone who opposes it that will say that life in prison is actually harsher. So doesn't that say that those of us supportive of the DP are actually more merciful?

Yeah but "mercy" isn't really a consideration for me. There are so many factors and if everyone were given a competent lawyer who can stay awake, a qualified jury, and there's more evidence than just witness testimony, it would be a tough call for me. Unfortunately no state with the DP guarantees that standard to minimize wrongful convictions. I'd probably still believe it's hypocritical for the state or anyone else to unequivocally state that premeditated killing is wrong....and then turn around and do the exact same. However, i'd object a lot less to it

There has been a gradual evolution in the DP in america, and elsewhere, leading to its inevitable demise. We used to execute minors and the mentally retarded. I'm guessing you would not support that, but 20 years ago you would be 'liberal' if not. Twenty years from now, the DP will be seen as barbaric probably even in texas. Looking at the list of countries with the DP, it's not good company

I said that the guilty person would get off if an innocent person was convicted for the crime. That would be true whatever the sentence itself was.

Difference being there's been cases where people have been released after *decades* in jail, as evidence emerges that they were innocent. If they were executed already, it's too late to do anything
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

It's rough years for those folks who commit white collar crimes and are in for 5-10 years and are subjected to the heinous animals that should have been quickly put to death, in the first place! Ever think of that?

What?
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

ok.. get rid of it... it doesn't affect me whatsoever...I'm not a murderer.


....we can work towards getting rid of life sentences next... it'll be fun.

OK, now talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. Listen, there's no reason to immediately jump to the absurd. Life in Prison w/o Parole does offer society protection and safety by keeping repeat or horribly violent criminals behind bars for life. The Death Penalty doesn't offer anything to society that Life doesn't already give. It's why it is, in part, redundant.

I don't get the temper tantrum some on the pro-DP side have when people point out the expense, the flaws, and the zero added value of DP that makes them just go off the deep end and start saying things like "well let's just get rid of the whole thing". No one is saying to get rid of the whole thing. No one is saying that the prison system in and of itself is unnecessary. Just this one piece of it, which has shown itself time and time again to be flawed, to be excessively expensive, to have no benefit to society beyond what we already get from the base system.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

People are exonerated even after decades in prison. It doesn't happen often but it does happen.

that doesn't fix anything . . especially after decades . . .
if im locked up for ten years for something i did not do and then I'm freed NOTHING is fixed . . . its broken forever . .
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

that doesn't fix anything . . especially after decades . . .
if im locked up for ten years for something i did not do and then I'm freed NOTHING is fixed . . . its broken forever . .

I've seen this response before and I remain as baffled by its significance to the topic now as I was then. Are you suggesting that because any length of mistaken imprisonment is destructive to the victim that somehow justifies a mistaken death sentence? Seeking clarification.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

I've seen this response before and I remain as baffled by its significance to the topic now as I was then. Are you suggesting that because a false life imprisonment is destructive to the victim that somehow justifies a mistaken death sentence? Seeking clarification.

huh?
absolutely not suggesting that at all that would be retarded . . . so sure I can clarify lol ;)
theres no justification for false punishment whether its life in prison or death


I was simply pointing out that if a person is worried about false convictions THATS what needs addressed. . . . address how court and convictions work . . address level of evidence for crimes/punishment . . .abolishing the death penalty doesn't fix the horrific injustice of false convictions

the poster I quoted falsely suggested that "it can be fixed" I simply pointed out that is not true . .. it can not be "fixed" . . . a person may have the subjective opinion that one is better than the other but thats all it is

. a false conviction ending up with life in prison vs death penalty is like asking a woman if she wants raped everyday until she dies some other way or just rapped once and killed . . . .theres no FACTUAL better answer both are horrific and people would probably choose different things . . . the point is both are horrible and abolishing ONE doesnt fix the other in any way
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

IMHO, there are no upsides to the death penalty. It costs a lot of money, it is potentially discriminatory (and I use potentially even though I have a pretty good idea that it is not potential but the reality, especially for older crimes), innocent people get killed and it is immoral also. State sanctioned killing is a slippery slope IMHO especially if some overeager DA with political ambitions gets a hold of the instrument of death penalties or when a sly and very ambitious politician gets involved who wants the death penalty for rape/incest and maybe (like in the war on drugs) is going to ask for mandatory death penalties for some crimes.

So let people sit in jail for life, it is still a death penalty for people who get life in jail but you let old age or illness do the killing, after which he will stand in front of his maker (if you happen to believe in that) who will judge him then.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

huh?
absolutely not suggesting that at all that would be retarded . . . so sure I can clarify lol ;)
theres no justification for false punishment whether its life in prison or death


I was simply pointing out that if a person is worried about false convictions THATS what needs addressed. . . . address how court and convictions work . . address level of evidence for crimes/punishment . . .abolishing the death penalty doesn't fix the horrific injustice of false convictions

the poster I quoted falsely suggested that "it can be fixed" I simply pointed out that is not true . .. it can not be "fixed" . . . a person may have the subjective opinion that one is better than the other but thats all it is

. a false conviction ending up with life in prison vs death penalty is like asking a woman if she wants raped everyday until she dies some other way or just rapped once and killed . . . .theres no FACTUAL better answer both are horrific and people would probably choose different things . . . the point is both are horrible and abolishing ONE doesnt fix the other in any way

The largest problem at hand isn't false convictions, but executions as a result of those false convictions. In any case, while I don't want to speak for Gaius I'm fairly certain the "fix" he's referring to is the ability to overturn a false conviction and give the rest of the victim's life back to him. If the victim has been executed, then there is no "rest of his life" to restitute.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

that doesn't fix anything . . especially after decades . . .
if im locked up for ten years for something i did not do and then I'm freed NOTHING is fixed . . . its broken forever . .

As I've pointed out several times already life in prison minimizes the damage done by wrongful convictions while still having a functional criminal justice system.

Maybe I'm crazy but I expect most people would prefer to be released after 20 years than have the government tell their widow "hey sorry we screwed up"
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

huh?
absolutely not suggesting that at all that would be retarded . . . so sure I can clarify lol ;)
theres no justification for false punishment whether its life in prison or death


I was simply pointing out that if a person is worried about false convictions THATS what needs addressed. . . . address how court and convictions work . . address level of evidence for crimes/punishment . . .abolishing the death penalty doesn't fix the horrific injustice of false convictions

the poster I quoted falsely suggested that "it can be fixed" I simply pointed out that is not true . .. it can not be "fixed" . . . a person may have the subjective opinion that one is better than the other but thats all it is

. a false conviction ending up with life in prison vs death penalty is like asking a woman if she wants raped everyday until she dies some other way or just rapped once and killed . . . .theres no FACTUAL better answer both are horrific and people would probably choose different things . . . the point is both are horrible and abolishing ONE doesnt fix the other in any way

Okay so you don't like the word fixed. Substitute "minimization of damage done."

You have in no way invalidated the point. Wrongful life in prison is bad. Wrongful execution is worse.

The system cannot be fixed. No human system system can ever be perfect. So the question really is what is an acceptable error rate. What is the acceptable cost in innocent humans executed to have a death penalty? Is it the current estimated 3-5%? 1%? 0.1%?


What is acceptable to you?
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

The largest problem at hand isn't false convictions, but executions as a result of those false convictions. In any case, while I don't want to speak for Gaius I'm fairly certain the "fix" he's referring to is the ability to overturn a false conviction and give the rest of the victim's life back to him. If the victim has been executed, then there is no "rest of his life" to restitute.

Exactly. Thank you.

While the victim lives there is the possibility that the wrong is righted. Not so once he's dead.
 
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Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

1.)The largest problem at hand isn't false convictions, but executions as a result of those false convictions.
2.) In any case, while I don't want to speak for Gaius I'm fairly certain the "fix" he's referring to is the ability to overturn a false conviction and give the rest of the victim's life back to him. If the victim has been executed, then there is no "rest of his life" to restitute.

1.) I disagree i say its the false convictions first . . without them there is no next step . . life in prison or death sentence . . gotta start with bad domino number one. I also say that because the stats of false death convictions and the reality of most death row people die in prison and or are in there for 20+ years anyway
I get what you are saying but I dont find that to matter in any significant way . . . .
2.) I agree with your guess of what he is probably referring too but that ability to now free them is NOT a fix IMO in anyway what so ever. . .some people may feel its better but its not a fix
Im just sayin im in jail for 20 years and then they release me NOTHING is fixed . . . yes im not "dead" but nothing is fixed . .

lets go through a scenario

its 1995 Say I'm 1995 in my first year of college
my girlfriend is 20
my brothers are 25 and 29
my mom is 43 my dad is 53
my one pap is 67 my grams are 66 and 77

Im falsely convicted of armed robbery, kidnapping, attempted murder and murder (guy held up a store, cops showed up, they shot at him, he shot back, hit a cop but he didnt die, he killed the manager and escaped out the back with a lady clerk). . . .
i get 35 years . . . but after 20 they figure out im innocent . . .now im 49 and the let me out . . . what is fixed? nothing . . .

Im 49 with no education (unless i got one in jail which is unlikely) I've been rapped and beaten up for years, I have little to no family and friends if any at all, im 20 years disconnected, its now 2015, whats a smart phone? internet?
my mom is alive but she is 63, my dad has passed he would have been 73
grandparents passed except for one gram she is hangin on at 86! but she is in a home
my girlfriend is gone, dont know where she is
my brothers are 45 and 49, they have kids . . . .i dont really know them . . . most of them are graduated and in college themselves now, one died in a car accident

so here i am . . . im out . . my mom still loves me, she always did believe i was Innocent . . .the rest of the family not so much . . i did get in to some light trouble when i was younger . . she says i can stay with her, she doesnt drive though she has problems with her legs, she is on disability . . .her neighbor drives her to pick me up . . .

again so here i am . . living in my moms basement at 49, 20 years disconnected . . . time to get educated, learn a trade do something . . . .
I start interacting with some people that hear the news . . . they say im different . . . like 20 years doesnt naturally do that to a person even with out the rapes, assults and losing 20 years of interaction . . .

yes im so glad i was released and it was "fixed"

see, the issue for me is nothing changes . . . . fix the false convictions and require a higher level of evidence for the death penalty . . abolishing it does very littler

false convictions destroy a person . . . . its not "justification" for the death penalty just pointing out that the argument that it can be fixed is false
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

1.) I disagree i say its the false convictions first . . without them there is no next step . . life in prison or death sentence . . gotta start with bad domino number one. I also say that because the stats of false death convictions and the reality of most death row people die in prison and or are in there for 20+ years anyway
I get what you are saying but I dont find that to matter in any significant way . . . .

Reforming an entire justice system that results in wrongful convictions is an overwhelming task that would require massive resources, grass-roots movements and campaigns that could take decades. An innocent person on death row can't wait that kind of time for massive advances in American society. It's much simpler to just ban the death penalty.

2.) I agree with your guess of what he is probably referring too but that ability to now free them is NOT a fix IMO in anyway what so ever. . .some people may feel its better but its not a fix
Im just sayin im in jail for 20 years and then they release me NOTHING is fixed . . . yes im not "dead" but nothing is fixed . .

Um, okay. Sure, that twenty years is a bitch, but there is still technically more life to live. I have no idea what this has to do with the death penalty.

lets go through a scenario

its 1995 Say I'm 1995 in my first year of college
my girlfriend is 20
my brothers are 25 and 29
my mom is 43 my dad is 53
my one pap is 67 my grams are 66 and 77

Im falsely convicted of armed robbery, kidnapping, attempted murder and murder (guy held up a store, cops showed up, they shot at him, he shot back, hit a cop but he didnt die, he killed the manager and escaped out the back with a lady clerk). . . .
i get 35 years . . . but after 20 they figure out im innocent . . .now im 49 and the let me out . . . what is fixed? nothing . . .

Im 49 with no education (unless i got one in jail which is unlikely) I've been rapped and beaten up for years, I have little to no family and friends if any at all, im 20 years disconnected, its now 2015, whats a smart phone? internet?
my mom is alive but she is 63, my dad has passed he would have been 73
grandparents passed except for one gram she is hangin on at 86! but she is in a home
my girlfriend is gone, dont know where she is
my brothers are 45 and 49, they have kids . . . .i dont really know them . . . most of them are graduated and in college themselves now, one died in a car accident

so here i am . . . im out . . my mom still loves me, she always did believe i was Innocent . . .the rest of the family not so much . . i did get in to some light trouble when i was younger . . she says i can stay with her, she doesnt drive though she has problems with her legs, she is on disability . . .her neighbor drives her to pick me up . . .

again so here i am . . living in my moms basement at 49, 20 years disconnected . . . time to get educated, learn a trade do something . . . .
I start interacting with some people that hear the news . . . they say im different . . . like 20 years doesnt naturally do that to a person even with out the rapes, assults and losing 20 years of interaction . . .

yes im so glad i was released and it was "fixed"

see, the issue for me is nothing changes . . . . fix the false convictions and require a higher level of evidence for the death penalty . . abolishing it does very littler

false convictions destroy a person . . . . its not "justification" for the death penalty just pointing out that the argument that it can be fixed is false

Again, the "fix" isn't giving back to the victim the time that was lost. The "fix" is the overturning of the conviction, giving the victim another chance at life.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

1.)Okay so you don't like the word fixed. Substitute "minimization of damage done."
2.)You have in no way invalidated the point.
3.) Wrongful life in prison is bad. Wrongful execution is worse.
4.)The system cannot be fixed.
5.) No human system system can ever be perfect.
6.) So the question really is what is an acceptable error rate. What is the acceptable cost in innocent humans executed to have a death penalty? Is it the current estimated 3-5%? 1%? 0.1%?


What is acceptable to you?

1.) has nothing to do with what i "like" its just factually wrong
and your new selection is also false . . . the damage has not been minimized lol
2.) actually i have, i have completely destroyed it because nothing is fixed, that point failed see post 241
3.) thats your OPINION and its one i may agree with but it doesnt motivate me to abolish the death penalty in anyway only improve the system
rape every day is bad, rape and murdered is worse in some peoples opinions . . yeaaaaaaa lol thats a VERY weak sale point . . .

this product kills you. . . . this product only gives you penis cancer and cause you to go blind . . . .
4.) wow thats HILARIOUS , , how do you know? you claim releasing person after decades of prison is a fix but there is no fix for our justice system? wow thats very disingenuous and biased . .
5.) correct, good thing i never claimed that
6.) don't know that too is subjective
if what i said was actually focused on and done that would go down . .. like i said improve the system and require higher evidence . . in 2015 if done properly the errors could be near perfect

how many innocent die cause of prescribed drugs, medical mistakes, transportation accidents, guns, knives, swimming? what is acceptable to you??
how about your solution, we abolish the death penalty how many innocent people spending thier lives in jail is acceptable?

your point has no validity accept by your own subjective standards .. . work on the system . . abolishing the death penalty in 2015 does very little
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

1.)Reforming an entire justice system that results in wrongful convictions is an overwhelming task that would require massive resources, grass-roots movements and campaigns that could take decades. An innocent person on death row can't wait that kind of time for massive advances in American society. It's much simpler to just ban the death penalty.
2.)Um, okay. Sure, that twenty years is a bitch, but there is still technically more life to live.
3.) I have no idea what this has to do with the death penalty.
4.)Again, the "fix" isn't giving back to the victim the time that was lost. The "fix" is the overturning of the conviction, giving the victim another chance at life.

1.) wow, who said all that? I didn't ask for a reform of the entire justice system . . .I agree that would be hard, thats why i never suggested it
I simply said we can increase level of evidence needed for death sentences . . . why would that be any harder than abolishing the death penalty lol
2.) yeaaaaaa . . whoopidy do . . if that happened to me i would feel so much better lol come one cardinal
3.) easy it destroys the false argument things can be fixed . . thats what i was REALLY discussing . . what does abolishing the death penalty really fix . . . nothing really
4.) and thats not a "fix" . . . .
its simply ending the daily torture of a person . . but it doesnt fix anything
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

1.) wow, who said all that? I didn't ask for a reform of the entire justice system . . .I agree that would be hard, thats why i never suggested it
I simply said we can increase level of evidence needed for death sentences . . . why would that be any harder than abolishing the death penalty lol
2.) yeaaaaaa . . whoopidy do . . if that happened to me i would feel so much better lol come one cardinal
3.) easy it destroys the false argument things can be fixed . . thats what i was REALLY discussing . . what does abolishing the death penalty really fix . . . nothing really
4.) and thats not a "fix" . . . .
its simply ending the daily torture of a person . . but it doesnt fix anything

Your particular issue with the criminal justice system is off topic.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

1.)As I've pointed out several times already life in prison minimizes the damage done by wrongful convictions
2.) while still having a functional criminal justice system.
3.) Maybe I'm crazy but I expect most people would prefer to be released after 20 years than have the government tell their widow "hey sorry we screwed up"

1.) but it doesnt "minimize" anything really
2.) its already functional
3.) maybe . . but thats not the issue . . the issue is false convictions . . thats an appeal to emotion . . i bet many would rather just be put to death then rapped and beat weekly, lose most of thier friends and family and then get out in the real world and have nothing :shrug:
that doesnt matter though . . the

both cases the person is destroyed

and in both case the government STILL has to say sorry we screwed up . . . if they even had a widow

work on the system . . .

I can honestly say i dont know what i would want . . . i would have to know every detail of my 20 years in prison and what happens when i get out

maybe im crazy but i expect most people would simply not want to get falsely convicted at all
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Your particular issue with the criminal justice system is off topic.

no its not at all lol
you are better than that ;)

the topic I was discussing was the claim that "abolishing the death penalty allows things to be fixed if there is a false conviction"...... that claim is false and my issue with the justice system is spot on on that topic . . .
if you disagree simply tell me why its not on topic
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

no its not at all lol
you are better than that ;)

the topic I was discussing was the claim that "abolishing the death penalty allows things to be fixed if there is a false conviction"...... that claim is false and my issue with the justice system is spot on on that topic . . .
if you disagree simply tell me why its not on topic

You're wrong because you're fixating on the thing being fixed that no one else is talking about, which has been explained to you point-blank multiple times now. Complaining that a false conviction doesn't give back the time lost does nothing to address the problem of executions as a result of false convictions right now.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

1.)You're wrong because you're fixating on the thing being fixed that no one else is talking about, which has been explained to you point-blank multiple times now.
2.) Complaining that a false conviction doesn't give back the time lost does nothing to address the problem of executions as a result of false convictions right now.


so you CANT tell me why im not on topic? got it

1.) really, so the posts i quoted just doet exist huh? i made it all up. A poster didnt make the false claim decades in prison could be "fixed" . . i guess somebody should go back and delete post 60 and 208 then LMAO sorry but im not wrong the claim was made and its false
2.) never said I wanted it to give back time LOL please stick to things actually said and not make up strawman because just like the claim it could be fixed got destroyed any false claims or me wanting back time would be destroyed too

abolishing the death penalty doesnt address the false conviction that are going on right now either . . .

truth remains the claim that abolishing the death penalty "fixes it" is not a fact
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

1.) has nothing to do with what i "like" its just factually wrong
and your new selection is also false . . . the damage has not been minimized lol
2.) actually i have, i have completely destroyed it because nothing is fixed, that point failed see post 241
3.) thats your OPINION and its one i may agree with but it doesnt motivate me to abolish the death penalty in anyway only improve the system
rape every day is bad, rape and murdered is worse in some peoples opinions . . yeaaaaaaa lol thats a VERY weak sale point . . .

this product kills you. . . . this product only gives you penis cancer and cause you to go blind . . . .
4.) wow thats HILARIOUS , , how do you know? you claim releasing person after decades of prison is a fix but there is no fix for our justice system? wow thats very disingenuous and biased . .
5.) correct, good thing i never claimed that
6.) don't know that too is subjective
if what i said was actually focused on and done that would go down . .. like i said improve the system and require higher evidence . . in 2015 if done properly the errors could be near perfect

how many innocent die cause of prescribed drugs, medical mistakes, transportation accidents, guns, knives, swimming? what is acceptable to you??
how about your solution, we abolish the death penalty how many innocent people spending thier lives in jail is acceptable?

your point has no validity accept by your own subjective standards .. . work on the system . . abolishing the death penalty in 2015 does very little

You've not destroyed my argument. You've simply evaded it. Your entire hypothetical about what happens to you after 20 years in prison is completely irrelevant to this subject. It is relevant to a discussion of how the state should compensate wrongly convicted people and help them reintegrate into society by but it has nothing to do with a death penalty discussion.

Similarly your arguments about what goes on in prison are appropriate to discussions on prison reform. They have nothing to do with the death penalty.

No system will ever be perfect and with your comment that we need "to fix the system" you've implied one if two things:

A. That the system can be made perfect or,
B. That the error rate can be reduced to an acceptable level.

Since you now claim that the system cannot be made perfect you must then believe that there is an acceptable error rate. What is it?

No innocent should ever be jailed but it will happen because the system is and will always be flawed. Not killing them is just less bad than killing them. It sucks as a solution to improperly jailing people fir murder but it sucks less than killing them.
 
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