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Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty[W:203]

Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Once they've died in prison there isn't much to be done either.

According to the DOJ the average time from conviction to execution is 198 months - about 16 years. People in prison serving life without parole routinely spend more than that in jail. If you can see that a longer timeline increases the probability of undoing an injustice there's really no point in continuing this line of discussion.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

According to the DOJ the average time from conviction to execution is 198 months - about 16 years. People in prison serving life without parole routinely spend more than that in jail. If you can see that a longer timeline increases the probability of undoing an injustice there's really no point in continuing this line of discussion.

So according to you the justice system will always achieve a dependable result in the case of people sentenced to prison but not in the case of people sentenced to die. In one case there is infallibility and in another there isn't. Pretty illogical.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

That pretty much answers my question, doesn't it.

I don't need a "study" to tell me that punishment doesn't deter all crime. Nor do I need a "study" to tell me that no executed murderer has ever murdered again.

Good point. I don't need a study to tell me that innocent people that are executed will never murder even once.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Good point. I don't need a study to tell me that innocent people that are executed will never murder even once.

Absolutely true. The same goes for people who die in prison after having been wrongfully convicted.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Absolutely true. The same goes for people who die in prison after having been wrongfully convicted.

Then let's not pretend this has anything to do with the protection of innocent people, alright?
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

It's one risk against another. Why would one be more controllable than another?

Life without parole would decrease the risk to people outside of prison.

Segregation of convicted murderers from others would protect other inmates.

Certainly there may be an increased risk to guards - on average it seems 3 corrections officers are killed a year. Even if you assume all three are killed by people in jail for life for murder that number is lower than the estimated 3% of death row inmates who are innocent.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

True but Life in prison is not always the fitting of punishment for certain crimes.

But the state killing people is? May I remind you that our justice system if filled with errors, and the recent revelations that the FBI essentially intentionally falsified evidence to retain convictions just sheds light on our justice system problems, and you think it wise that the state has the power to execute individuals?
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

So according to you the justice system will always achieve a dependable result in the case of people sentenced to prison but not in the case of people sentenced to die. In one case there is infallibility and in another there isn't. Pretty illogical.

No. According to me the justice system will always get some cases wrong. Not executing people minimizes to the extent possible the cost of getting it wrong.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

I am not pleading for "killing everybody", just for being reasonable. And it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that some people commit crimes that warrant the death penalty.

I think some people may desire the death of people. But if one is going to be reasonable, they need to weight the pros and cons of having the death penalty and see what it adds to the justice system. Our DP adds nothing of value. It costs way more to kill a man than to keep him in prison for the rest of his life. We are always hearing about DP cases being overturned or people being found innocent, it's inherently flawed. It doesn't provide deterrent to crime, it offers no additional safety to the Public over Life w/o Parole.

One may want to kill another person, think their crime is so heinous that they need to die, but our system is built upon imperfect knowledge and the cost and failure modes of the DP far outweigh any potential gain from it.

The DP is an irrational system.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Yes I am concerned about that but in rare cases where it's a slam dunk case the person did it and it's a horrendous crime then the person doesn't deserve to live. Raping and then burning to death a little girl as one poster gave as an example is just the kind of crime where I don't feel anything for that person and hope they burn to death as well. I can be compassionate until someone tortures and kills human beings for their own sick pleasure.


The problem though is that there are very few slam dunk cases. The case you mentioned is horrible and if caught in the act I'd be the first person to put a bullet in his head. But if they aren't caught in the act we depend on the justice system to figure out who did what and the system gets it wrong - somewhere between 3-5% of the time if the stats I saw are accurate.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

I think some people may desire the death of people. But if one is going to be reasonable, they need to weight the pros and cons of having the death penalty and see what it adds to the justice system. Our DP adds nothing of value. It costs way more to kill a man than to keep him in prison for the rest of his life. We are always hearing about DP cases being overturned or people being found innocent, it's inherently flawed. It doesn't provide deterrent to crime, it offers no additional safety to the Public over Life w/o Parole.

One may want to kill another person, think their crime is so heinous that they need to die, but our system is built upon imperfect knowledge and the cost and failure modes of the DP far outweigh any potential gain from it.

The DP is an irrational system.

I don't desire the death of anyone. But some people pose such an unacceptable risk to society that they deserve to be executed.

It is not so that the death penalty is more expensive than keeping somebody in jail for 50+ years. The "studies" that purport to demonstrate that do not take into account the full cost of housing, feeding, guarding, taking medical care of, etc somebody for all that time, let alone the cost of all the legal proceedings somebody can institute during such a period of time. That being said, coast is not a serious consideration or argument in this matter.

Human justice, like everything human, is imperfect. That doesn't mean we have to abandon it.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

No. According to me the justice system will always get some cases wrong. Not executing people minimizes to the extent possible the cost of getting it wrong.

As I demonstrated it doesn't.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

The protection of innocent people (future victims of murderers) isn't what's really desired by people who advocate for the death penalty, but rather the sense that justice has been done. This is demonstrated by their constant need to play to people's emotions by mentioning in detail a list of horrible crimes, and their utterly cavalier attitude at the fact that innocent people have been sent to death row numerous times already. If they were truly worried about the innocent then they'd be against the death penalty.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Then let's not pretend this has anything to do with the protection of innocent people, alright?

Contrary to you I feel innocent people should be protected from murderers, yes.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Contrary to you I feel innocent people should be protected from murderers, yes.

So where's your concern for innocent people who have been sent to death row?
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

The protection of innocent people (future victims of murderers) isn't what's really desired by people who advocate for the death penalty, but rather the sense that justice has been done. This is demonstrated by their constant need to play to people's emotions by mentioning in detail a list of horrible crimes, and their utterly cavalier attitude at the fact that innocent people have been sent to death row numerous times already. If they were truly worried about the innocent then they'd be against the death penalty.

So you feel that it was very wrong to execute the commander of Auschwitz, right?
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

So where's your concern for innocent people who have been sent to death row?

It is in the same place with my concern for people who have died in prison innocently.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

It is in the same place with my concern for people who have died in prison innocently.

Your concern for innocent people is in a cold, dark place?
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Not really. More in a rational, logical place.

Seriously, please explain for me why an individual carrying out murder against an innocent is bad, but the state executing an innocent person is good. Because when I try to see the common thread in those two thoughts, protection of the innocent doesn't seem to be it. No more bon mots or deflections: please address directly the issue of the execution of innocent people.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

I don't desire the death of anyone. But some people pose such an unacceptable risk to society that they deserve to be executed.

Life in prison without parole removes that risk to society. So it seems that we can accomplish this without the use of the DP

It is not so that the death penalty is more expensive than keeping somebody in jail for 50+ years. The "studies" that purport to demonstrate that do not take into account the full cost of housing, feeding, guarding, taking medical care of, etc somebody for all that time, let alone the cost of all the legal proceedings somebody can institute during such a period of time. That being said, coast is not a serious consideration or argument in this matter.

Human justice, like everything human, is imperfect. That doesn't mean we have to abandon it.

Actually, the calculations entail everything. The trials alone cost about 1 million dollars more for a DP case. Housing a DP inmate is much more expensive as well. In California, for instance, the annual cost of DP was about 137 million while it's annual cost for Life in Prison was 11.5 million. That includes keeping them and housing them and feeding them.

So as we can clearly see, the DP has significantly higher costs associated with it.

Human justice is imperfect, I never said anything else. Nor did I say to abandon it. I am not calling to nix the courts, I'm not saying we should close all the jails, I'm not advocating the cessation of all punishment. But I do say that for one part of it, a part that has no functional benefit and a plethora of negatives, we can do away with it while keeping risk to society the same and saving a crap ton of money. Plus we remove one more way for the government to legally kill us.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

So you feel that it was very wrong to execute the commander of Auschwitz, right?

Yes, horrible people commit atrocities.

Now please explain clearly for me why an individual carrying out murder against an innocent is bad, but the state executing an innocent person is good. Because when I try to see the common thread in those two thoughts, protection of the innocent doesn't seem to be it. No more bon mots or deflections: please address directly the issue of the execution of innocent people.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Life in prison without parole removes that risk to society. So it seems that we can accomplish this without the use of the DP

As I demonstrated this is simply not true. Are you arguing people should be locked up in their cel 24/7 for the rest of their life and never be allowed to come into physical contact with anybody, not even for medical reasons?
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

Actually, the calculations entail everything. The trials alone cost about 1 million dollars more for a DP case. Housing a DP inmate is much more expensive as well. In California, for instance, the annual cost of DP was about 137 million while it's annual cost for Life in Prison was 11.5 million. That includes keeping them and housing them and feeding them.

So as we can clearly see, the DP has significantly higher costs associated with it.

.

This is not true. You are arguing that 50+ years of legal procedures is cheaper than 10+ years.
 
Re: Nebraska Abolishes Death Penalty

As I demonstrated this is simply not true. Are you arguing people should be locked up in their cel 24/7 for the rest of their life and never be allowed to come into physical contact with anybody, not even for medical reasons?

Where did you demonstrate that at?
 
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