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Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South China

Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Montecresto said:
The problem is, that is a strawman argument, not unlike such arguments we heard before concerning what ifs. The US is building a massive base at Guam, which you will undoubtedly dismiss the significance of, but it's not lost on China. Nor is it lost on China that the US has been sucking up to its long time enemy Vietnam, in an attempt to regain use of their deep water port. Nor did they miss the both literal and symbolic stationing of US troops in northern Australia, accompanied with a direct provocative speech promising our regional ally's containment of China. Obviously the US is spoiling for a fight with China.
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Uh huh. There's a longer game at play here, and you're on the wrong side of it. The US has dismissed no agreement for peaceful settlement of disputes. China has.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

humbolt said:
The US claim to Hawaii is not in question here.
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If you're going to question the manner by which China has expanded itself, then the manner in which the US has expanded itself is very legitimately in question. I do understand how you would want to avoid that inconvenient point. China fought an enemy that traveled half way around the world to take possession of the Spratly islands, and beat them, and forced the Sino-French land boundary treaty of 1887 between Vietnam, France and China, in which CHINA is recognized as the rightful owner of the Spratly's! Then they lost them to the Japanese in 1939, who retained control until 1947 at which time they were returned back to China. Earlier in the thread I posted a list of international recognition that the Spratly's, are indeed Chinese possessions. Not all that to have the US round up its ally's in the region to start with their own provocative and aggressive behaviors of land reclamation, troop and artillery placement in order to point to Chinese aggressions when they respond exactly as should be expected. And all because of the fringe rights paranoia that US sole superpower status is slipping. Containment of China is the new agenda and the mongering is being ratcheted up, nearly every GOP presidential contender has invoked the horrors of China, the weakness of the president, and the need for us to CONFRONT THE ENEMY!!!!!
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Montecresto said:
If you're going to question the manner by which China has expanded itself, then the manner in which the US has expanded itself is very legitimately in question. I do understand how you would want to avoid that inconvenient point. China fought an enemy that traveled half way around the world to take possession of the Spratly islands, and beat them, and forced the Sino-French land boundary treaty of 1887 between Vietnam, France and China, in which CHINA is recognized as the rightful owner of the Spratly's! Then they lost them to the Japanese in 1939, who retained control until 1947 at which time they were returned back to China. Earlier in the thread I posted a list of international recognition that the Spratly's, are indeed Chinese possessions. Not all that to have the US round up its ally's in the region to start with their own provocative and aggressive behaviors of land reclamation, troop and artillery placement in order to point to Chinese aggressions when they respond exactly as should be expected. And all because of the fringe rights paranoia that US sole superpower status is slipping. Containment of China is the new agenda and the mongering is being ratcheted up, nearly every GOP presidential contender has invoked the horrors of China, the weakness of the president, and the need for us to CONFRONT THE ENEMY!!!!!
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If not for the US, most of China would be speaking Japanese today. I haven't declared China our enemy. China is the country bragging about how much of the US is within their nuclear targeting range. It would seem that China has declared the US the enemy, and not the opposite. So yes, we are watching them and we are taking steps to avoid the military eventuality the Chinese seem to favor. It's called prudence. And I should also mention that unlike China, we haven't killed an estimated 30-45 million people. The US is certainly is far from perfect, but we have a higher regard for human life than that, and I land on that side of things every time.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Montecresto said:
The problem is, that is a strawman argument, not unlike such arguments we heard before concerning what ifs. The US is building a massive base at Guam, which you will undoubtedly dismiss the significance of, but it's not lost on China. Nor is it lost on China that the US has been sucking up to its long time enemy Vietnam, in an attempt to regain use of their deep water port. Nor did they miss the both literal and symbolic stationing of US troops in northern Australia, accompanied with a direct provocative speech promising our regional ally's containment of China. Obviously the US is spoiling for a fight with China.
Click to expand...

Relations with Vietnam have been on the mend for years.
Guam, US territory.

And what has the US done, stated repeatedly for all to negotiate. Yet China backed out of multilateral discussions.
China is clearly attempting to shut the US out of Asia.
Do you have a link where the US stated clearly they wanted China contained?
Stationing a few thousand troops in Australia means exactly squat. 1200 now and max out at 2500 in 2017. Still squat.
As to the Philippines, the base after if was gone caused a major hole in the Philippine economy.
The Philippines want US protection, and why should the US refuse.
China is preparing for war with the US.
The US's economic future is in Asia. Being cut out undermines the US.
Therefore it is a strategic interest of the US.

China's leader is telling the People's Liberation Army to prepare for war
Over the last several months, Chinese leader Xi Jinping and the Chinese Communist Party have repeatedly exhorted the People's Liberation Army to "be ready to win a war." Xi has repeatedly called for greater military modernization, increased training, and enhanced overall readiness of the Chinese army, navy, and air force.

These repeated calls have alarmed China's neighbors from New Delhi to Washington. The question on everyone's mind: what is all this preparation for?
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Interesting article.

China and the United States are preparing for war | China Daily Mail
At a Nov. 12 news conference in Beijing, General Secretary of the Communist Party Xi Jinping and U.S. President Barack Obama agreed to notify the other side before major military activities, and to develop a set of rules of behaviour for sea and air encounters, in order to avoid military confrontations in Asia. “It’s incredibly important that we avoid inadvertent escalation,” Ben Rhodes, a U.S. deputy national security advisor, was quoted by the Wall Street Journal as saying. An “accidental circumstance,” he said, could “lead into something that could precipitate conflict.”

Should we really be worried about war between the United States and China? Yes. Over the last four decades of studying China, I have spoken with hundreds of members of China’s military, the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), and read countless Chinese military journals and strategy articles. Chinese military and political leaders believe that their country is at the centre of American war planning. In other words, Beijing believes that the United States is readying itself for the possibility of a conflict with China — and that it must prepare for that eventuality.
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Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Montecresto said:
Wrong, you don't beat your wife but point out that you pay your taxes and get to work on time therefore claim you do more good than harm. :roll:
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Now I understand our difference. I believe the US, with some missteps and bad acts to be sure, has done more good than harm, and more good than any country in history. Exceptional indeed.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Helix said:
specifics, please. outline what the pissing contest looks like.
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As SecDef has already said, we will continue to sail and fly where we have a right to do so. The Chinese will have the opportunity to respect those rights.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Montecresto said:
Vietnam has their own reclamation project and has built their own military infrastructure on the same islands in dispute!!
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China’s rapid claim on contested islands in the South China Sea is beyond anything seen previously and raises legitimate questions about Beijing’s intentions in the region, the secretary of the Australian defence department, Dennis Richardson, said.
Richardson told a Senate estimates committee on Monday that the military buildup on China’s reclamation program in the South China Sea “dwarfs” what other nations in the region have done previously.
“The land reclamation activity by China in the South China Sea has been at a pace and scale in the last two years beyond anything we have previously seen. It dwarfs what the other claimant states have done, and the size of the land reclamation does raise questions about its purpose,” Richardson said. . . .


Read more: Australia: China
​
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Jack Hays said:
As SecDef has already said, we will continue to sail and fly where we have a right to do so. The Chinese will have the opportunity to respect those rights.
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one more chance. outline the course of the pissing contest as you see it playing out. one more vague attempt to dodge the question and i'm done responding to you in this thread. if you won't stop wasting my time with your dodging, then i will.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Helix said:
one more chance. outline the course of the pissing contest as you see it playing out. one more vague attempt to dodge the question and i'm done responding to you in this thread. if you won't stop wasting my time with your dodging, then i will.
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I believe I have given you a full answer. The US has publicly indicated we will continue to exercise freedom of flight and maritime navigation as we have done throughout our history. Then question then will be whether China will respect those rights -- or not. If challenged, the US will respond with the level of force required to exercise our rights as laid down in international law. I think I saw that the USS Ronald Reagan battle group is en route to the area to exercise those rights. (Carrier battle groups have done this for decades.)

I am indifferent to whether you respond. Your churlish behavior makes for an unattractive discussion.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Jack Hays said:
I believe I have given you a full answer. The US has publicly indicated we will continue to exercise freedom of flight and maritime navigation as we have done throughout our history. Then question then will be whether China will respect those rights -- or not. If challenged, the US will respond with the level of force required to exercise our rights as laid down in international law. I think I saw that the USS Ronald Reagan battle group is en route to the area to exercise those rights. (Carrier battle groups have done this for decades.)

I am indifferent to whether you respond. Your churlish behavior makes for an unattractive discussion.
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and then after we start moving warships into the region, what then? how much escalation do you support?
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Helix said:
and then after we start moving warships into the region, what then? how much escalation do you support?
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That will depend on what the Chinese do. Generally we try to respond proportionately. Cutting to the chase, if the Chinese were to attack our vessels we would respond with the full weight of US military, naval and air power. Make no mistake, freedom of navigation is a vital core national interest which the US will defend with force.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

China May Set Up Air Defense Zone

BEIJING — A Chinese admiral said Sunday that Beijing could set up an air defense zone above disputed areas of the South China Sea if it thought it was facing a large enough threat, according to Chinese news media.
Adm. Sun Jianguo, deputy chief of staff of the People’s Liberation Army, speaking at a regional security forum in Singapore, said that China had not definitely said it would create a so-called air defense identification zone, but that any decision would be based on an aerial threat assessment and the maritime security situation. He also said other nations should not overemphasize the issue.
The creation of an air defense zone would be viewed by the United States and Southeast Asian nations as a huge provocation. In recent years, foreign officials have speculated whether one of Beijing’s next moves in the South China Sea would be to set up such a zone, which would further solidify China’s military presence in the waters.
In November 2013, to the dismay of Japan and the United States, China declared an air defense identification zone over disputed waters in the East China Sea. Chinese military aircraft began requiring all other aircraft flying through the zone to identify themselves, and commercial airliners complied, though the United States sent B-52 bombers through the zone without advance warning to challenge Beijing.
In late May, Chinese officials told the United States to stop sending surveillance flights near land formations that China claims as its territory. American officials say the flights have been over international waters. . . . .


 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Montecresto said:
Yes we have, and now your lying, so take your own advice.
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Are you referring to your Fantasyland claims about Japan & Pearl Harbor? :lamoIn that case don't bother. I thought you were trying to make a serious argument.:lol:
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Jack Hays said:
That will depend on what the Chinese do. Generally we try to respond proportionately. Cutting to the chase, if the Chinese were to attack our vessels we would respond with the full weight of US military, naval and air power. Make no mistake, freedom of navigation is a vital core national interest which the US will defend with force.
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not surprising that you would support escalating a pissing match over islands all of the way into an unwinnable war that would utterly destroy the US. hawks continue to amaze me sometimes. thanks for at least answering the question instead of dodging it with a one liner, though.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Helix said:
not surprising that you would support escalating a pissing match over islands all of the way into an unwinnable war that would utterly destroy the US. hawks continue to amaze me sometimes. thanks for at least answering the question instead of dodging it with a one liner, though.
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Chinese fear that we just might do that is the only thing that restrains them.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

bubbabgone said:
Building on islands they own and increasing the size of islands they own is one thing.
But this ain't that one thing.
They want an island(s) to develop, likely for an eventual military installation, in what should be international waters but won't be once they claim it.
You're okay with that?
Why?
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They own the islands, why can't they build military installations on them. :shrug:
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Jack Hays said:
Chinese fear that we just might do that is the only thing that restrains them.
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well, that, and the biggest nuclear arsenal on the planet. but by all means, let's have another dick measuring contest to prove it. it's not like our own house needs work. let's go bar fightin'!
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Helix said:
well, that, and the biggest nuclear arsenal on the planet. but by all means, let's have another dick measuring contest to prove it. it's not like our own house needs work. let's go bar fightin'!
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That's really not it at all. Our entire economic, diplomatic and military position in Asia rests on the credibility of our commitments to our allies. Part of that commitment is defense of freedom of navigation, for ourselves and our allies. You can't just wish away conflict; it will come anyway.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

JANFU said:
Relations with Vietnam have been on the mend for years.
Guam, US territory.

And what has the US done, stated repeatedly for all to negotiate. Yet China backed out of multilateral discussions.
China is clearly attempting to shut the US out of Asia.
Do you have a link where the US stated clearly they wanted China contained?
Stationing a few thousand troops in Australia means exactly squat. 1200 now and max out at 2500 in 2017. Still squat.
As to the Philippines, the base after if was gone caused a major hole in the Philippine economy.
The Philippines want US protection, and why should the US refuse.
China is preparing for war with the US.
The US's economic future is in Asia. Being cut out undermines the US.
Therefore it is a strategic interest of the US.

China's leader is telling the People's Liberation Army to prepare for war


Interesting article.

China and the United States are preparing for war | China Daily Mail
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On the bolded. Why'd you make that statement? Besides the fact that it became US territory by conquest (see, it's always ok for us, just not anybody else) was US possession of Guam ever questioned, no, not by me. I mentioned Guam to point out that China has very real reasons for concern of their own, that you and others refuse to acknowledge!!! You don't think that China's looking at the US building this huge base on Guam, seeking a deep water port next door, stationing troops in Australia, and seeking use of Filipino bases as cause for concern, hmm?
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Jack Hays said:
Now I understand our difference. I believe the US, with some missteps and bad acts to be sure, has done more good than harm, and more good than any country in history. Exceptional indeed.
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You don't understand **** Jack, I mean jack ****. Everybody thinks his country is the best. America has done lots of great things here and for others. That's the easy part to focus on. It's those things that are stains on our history that are difficult for most people to admit, preferring to ignore, excuse, justify, or like you, just deny.
 
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Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Jack Hays said:
That's really not it at all.
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every empire tries to maintain its maximum sphere of influence / dominance, and most of them end up collapsing in on themselves. i'd prefer to see us take a different path and be a country instead.


Jack Hays said:
Our entire economic, diplomatic and military position in Asia rests on the credibility of our commitments to our allies. Part of that commitment is defense of freedom of navigation, for ourselves and our allies. You can't just wish away conflict; it will come anyway.
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a far east pissing match over some islands is their bar fight, not ours. if they want to pummel each other over nothing, that's their prerogative. we have infrastructure to build, people who need jobs, and kids who we should be sending to college instead.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Helix said:
not surprising that you would support escalating a pissing match over islands all of the way into an unwinnable war that would utterly destroy the US. hawks continue to amaze me sometimes. thanks for at least answering the question instead of dodging it with a one liner, though.
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It's a non issue. China hasn't threatened to impede the shipping lanes, nor would they. This is about a US pivot towards containment of China, denying them a rise to power that has the neocons unraveling. Four years ago Obama made a speech in Australia that was directed straight at Beijing, so stern was it, that some Australian politicians were incensed by it because of the trade status between the two nations, they didn't appreciate the American president attacking China so from their country. We also are constructing a huge base in Guam, seeking to regain use of vietnams deep water port and negotiating the use of Filipino military bases!!!!! Looking at a map of the region, why in the hell wouldn't China be concerned? China is responding to US activities in their region, it's not them being the aggressors. Looks quite clearly to me that China is preparing themselves for a war that America is bringing to them.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Jack Hays said:
They don't own the islands.
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Yes they do, and not only do they have treaty titles to them, they have written international acknowledgements of their ownership of them.
 
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