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Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South China

Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Those treaty obligations aren't open on both ends. The Philippines for example can't reach out and poke a stick at China expecting the US to be there when China snaps back. Well, they can, and the US likely would be there, but that's not the intent or literal purpose of such agreements. Furthermore, such agreements exist to give countries the "cover" of legitimacy to militarily operations in places they want to be but otherwise couldn't defend the right to be.

We aren't that naive. We've done that very thing ourselves, as has virtually any other nation of mention at one time or another. As I've said earlier, the legitimacy of the various claims should be weighed in an impartial international forum. Now, if you claim that such a forum doesn't exist I won't argue that, but there is one who's expressed purpose is just that. Beyond that, we are wise to keep an eye on things there, and if that means overflights in international air space, we should do that.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Not that I do not like the answers, the answers have no substance.
I ain't talking about the islands. Look at the 47 agreement and the new claims. Right into territorial waters of other countries. The n47 map claimed part of 2 nations territory. That ain't water.

No answer on why China reneged on their agreement and specifically demanded one on one negotiations. That one is easy to answer.

No answer on why China does not avail themselves of the Seas Convention? Why? Can you answer that.
No answer on why China reneged on their past agreements. Again an easy one
No answer on why the US is supposedly in the wrong?
No answer on why these countries are asking for US diplomatic assistance.
No answer on why China does not take this to the UN? Because they will lose.
Why is the US in the wrong on this?

We'll then that's the problem, I've been talking about the Spratly's (and a bit on the Paracel's) exclusively, the whole time.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

We aren't that naive. We've done that very thing ourselves, as has virtually any other nation of mention at one time or another. As I've said earlier, the legitimacy of the various claims should be weighed in an impartial international forum. Now, if you claim that such a forum doesn't exist I won't argue that, but there is one who's expressed purpose is just that. Beyond that, we are wise to keep an eye on things there, and if that means overflights in international air space, we should do that.

I've proven Chinese claims to the Spratly's for one hundred and thirty years, if you don't even haul out their more ancient history. The US annexed Hawaii (that's right, I said annexed, absorbed, TOOK possession of, essentially stole, in 1898) a hundred and twenty years ago. Suppose another country decided to overlay claims upon it in the mean time, do you think the US would put up with being told that we need to go before some fictitious world body to be informed whether or not our possession and occupation is legal? You do realise that the US doesn't give a **** about those "sand castles" but that this (along with TPP) is about holding China down, containment, an attempt to prevent China from becoming the undisputed regional power. This is a uni-polar world god damnit, and the US is the authority, who does China think they are???
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

[h=3]China's Dangerous Game - The Atlantic[/h]www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/.../chinas.../380789/


The Atlantic


If China can impose its will in the South China Sea, at least five rival .... Chinese ships in order to raise the cost of Chinese aggression to unacceptable levels.

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

Exceptionally enlightening link on China! :thumbs:

While we've been focused on barbarians like ISIS in the ME, and Boko Haram in Africa; we now have Russia trying to expand their influence in the Crimea and the Ukraine; and we're trying to negotiate with Iran on a nuclear deal that no one likes! Meanwhile, China has been busy inking deals for oil, gas, uranium, gold and other commodities with countries around the globe, and now they decide it's time to further their plans on the Spratlys, causing unrest in the South China Sea area? In addition, they hold at least a trillion dollars of our debt. Too many "coincidences" happening lately to suit me! Why is all this converging now, and for what purpose - to overwhelm us? *just musing* :thumbdown:
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

Exceptionally enlightening link on China! :thumbs:

While we've been focused on barbarians like ISIS in the ME, and Boko Haram in Africa; we now have Russia trying to expand their influence in the Crimea and the Ukraine; and we're trying to negotiate with Iran on a nuclear deal that no one likes! Meanwhile, China has been busy inking deals for oil, gas, uranium, gold and other commodities with countries around the globe, and now they decide it's time to further their plans on the Spratlys, causing unrest in the South China Sea area? In addition, they hold at least a trillion dollars of our debt. Too many "coincidences" happening lately to suit me! Why is all this converging now, and for what purpose - to overwhelm us? *just musing* :thumbdown:

Polgara????????? This is NOTHING NEW

The People's Republic of China (PRC) claims all of the Spratly Islands as part of China, and has had a long naval presence in the territories.

The Republic of China (ROC), which ruled mainland China before 1949 and has been confined to Taiwan since 1949, also claims all of the Spratly Islands.

Basis for PRC's and ROC's claimsEdit
China claims to have discovered the islands in the Han Dynasty in 2 BC. The islands were claimed to have been marked on maps compiled during the time of Eastern Han dynasty and Eastern Wu (one of the Three Kingdoms). Since the Yuan dynasty in the 12th century, several islands that may be the Spratlys have been labelled as Chinese territory,[60] followed by the Ming Dynasty[61] and the Qing dynasty from the 13th to 19th Century.[62] In 1755,[62][63] archaeological surveys the remains of Chinese pottery and coins have been found in the islands and are cited as proof for the PRC claim, but they are more likely to have come from shipwrecks of passing Chinese junks.[64]

Chinese fishermen have fished around the islands since 200 BC.[34]

In the 19th century, Europeans found that Chinese fishermen from Hainan annually sojourned on the Spratly islands for part of the year, while in 1877 it was the British who launched the first modern legal claims to the Spratlys.[32][33]

When the Spratlys and Paracels were being surveyed by Germany in 1883, China issued protests against them. The 1887 Chinese-Vietnamese Boundary convention signed between France and China after the Sino-French War said that China was the owner of the Spratly and Paracel islands.[34] China sent naval forces on inspection tours in 1902 and 1907 and placed flags and markers on the islands. The Qing dynasty's successor state, the Republic of China, claimed the Spratly and Paracel islands under the jurisdiction of Hainan.[35]

The Spratlys and the Paracels were conquered by Japan in 1939. Japan administered the Spratlys via Taiwan's jurisdiction and the Paracels via Hainan's jurisdiction.[32] The Paracels and Spratlys were handed over to Republic of China control from Japan after the 1945 surrender of Japan,[36] since the Allied powers assigned the Republic of China to receive Japanese surrenders in that area.[35]

After WW2 ended, the Republic of China was the "most active claimaint". The Republic of China then garrisoned Itu Aba (Taiping) island in 1946 and posted Chinese flags and markers on it along with Woody island in the Paracels, France tried, but failed to make them leave Woody island.[32] The aim of the Republic of China was to block the French claims.[35][37] The Republic of China drew up the map showing the U shaped claim on the entire South China Sea, showing the Spratly and Paracels in Chinese territory, in 1947.[35]

Spratly Islands dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Polgara????????? This is NOTHING NEW

The People's Republic of China (PRC) claims all of the Spratly Islands as part of China, and has had a long naval presence in the territories.

The Republic of China (ROC), which ruled mainland China before 1949 and has been confined to Taiwan since 1949, also claims all of the Spratly Islands.

Basis for PRC's and ROC's claimsEdit
China claims to have discovered the islands in the Han Dynasty in 2 BC. The islands were claimed to have been marked on maps compiled during the time of Eastern Han dynasty and Eastern Wu (one of the Three Kingdoms). Since the Yuan dynasty in the 12th century, several islands that may be the Spratlys have been labelled as Chinese territory,[60] followed by the Ming Dynasty[61] and the Qing dynasty from the 13th to 19th Century.[62] In 1755,[62][63] archaeological surveys the remains of Chinese pottery and coins have been found in the islands and are cited as proof for the PRC claim, but they are more likely to have come from shipwrecks of passing Chinese junks.[64]

Chinese fishermen have fished around the islands since 200 BC.[34]

In the 19th century, Europeans found that Chinese fishermen from Hainan annually sojourned on the Spratly islands for part of the year, while in 1877 it was the British who launched the first modern legal claims to the Spratlys.[32][33]

When the Spratlys and Paracels were being surveyed by Germany in 1883, China issued protests against them. The 1887 Chinese-Vietnamese Boundary convention signed between France and China after the Sino-French War said that China was the owner of the Spratly and Paracel islands.[34] China sent naval forces on inspection tours in 1902 and 1907 and placed flags and markers on the islands. The Qing dynasty's successor state, the Republic of China, claimed the Spratly and Paracel islands under the jurisdiction of Hainan.[35]

The Spratlys and the Paracels were conquered by Japan in 1939. Japan administered the Spratlys via Taiwan's jurisdiction and the Paracels via Hainan's jurisdiction.[32] The Paracels and Spratlys were handed over to Republic of China control from Japan after the 1945 surrender of Japan,[36] since the Allied powers assigned the Republic of China to receive Japanese surrenders in that area.[35]

After WW2 ended, the Republic of China was the "most active claimaint". The Republic of China then garrisoned Itu Aba (Taiping) island in 1946 and posted Chinese flags and markers on it along with Woody island in the Paracels, France tried, but failed to make them leave Woody island.[32] The aim of the Republic of China was to block the French claims.[35][37] The Republic of China drew up the map showing the U shaped claim on the entire South China Sea, showing the Spratly and Paracels in Chinese territory, in 1947.[35]

Spratly Islands dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point is after all this time, why are they being provocative now? The world is in enough turmoil already! Do they not believe they will get a fair hearing on ownership by whoever decides these things, and they're just making themselves visible to remind everyone they're not a force to be ignored?
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

Exceptionally enlightening link on China! :thumbs:

While we've been focused on barbarians like ISIS in the ME, and Boko Haram in Africa; we now have Russia trying to expand their influence in the Crimea and the Ukraine; and we're trying to negotiate with Iran on a nuclear deal that no one likes! Meanwhile, China has been busy inking deals for oil, gas, uranium, gold and other commodities with countries around the globe, and now they decide it's time to further their plans on the Spratlys, causing unrest in the South China Sea area? In addition, they hold at least a trillion dollars of our debt. Too many "coincidences" happening lately to suit me! Why is all this converging now, and for what purpose - to overwhelm us? *just musing* :thumbdown:

Greetings Polgara.:2wave:

Why? Weak American leadership.:shock:
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

My point is after all this time, why are they being provocative now? The world is in enough turmoil already! Do they not believe they will get a fair hearing on ownership by whoever decides these things, and they're just making themselves visible to remind everyone they're not a force to be ignored?

Ok, I guess you didn't read my post you quoted or you'd have seen the history of China's ownership of the Spratlys, long before the UN even existed. They will likely tell the UN to **** off just as the US would under similar circumstances.

It's not being provocative to build stuff on your property. You really can't see that the "pivot to Asia" is a policy of Chinese containment?? I showed you just some of China's sound historical claims and possession of the Spratlys. I can tell you one thing, taking on China, even in a win in the end, will look NOTHING like taking on Hussein, or Gaddafi!! Why the insistence amongst people to push this over uninhabitable islands that all added together are but a couple hundred acres???
 
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Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

It's not being provocative to build stuff on your property. You really can't see that the "pivot to Asia" is a policy of Chinese containment?? I showed you just some of China's sound historical claims and possession of the Spratlys. I can tell you one thing, taking on China, even in a win in the end, will look NOTHING like taking on Hussein, or Gaddafi!! Why the insistence amongst people to push this over uninhabitable islands that all added together are but a couple hundred acres???

No one cares about the islands. The issue is freedom of navigation.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Ok, I guess you didn't read my post you quoted or you'd have seen the history of China's ownership of the Spratlys, long before the UN even existed. They will likely tell the UN to **** off just as the US would under similar circumstances.

It's not being provocative to build stuff on your property. You really can't see that the "pivot to Asia" is a policy of Chinese containment?? I showed you just some of China's sound historical claims and possession of the Spratlys. I can tell you one thing, taking on China, even in a win in the end, will look NOTHING like taking on Hussein, or Gaddafi!! Why the insistence amongst people to push this over uninhabitable islands that all added together are but a couple hundred acres???

I certainly did read your post! I just wasn't aware they had claimed those islands so very long ago. I love history, but China hasn't been covered as extensively as the Egyptians, as an example, but I was astonished at seeing the thousands of clay soldiers that protected the first Emperor of China when they were unearthed in an archeological dig! The time it must taken to do that was mind-boggling to me, since they weren't all the same - facial expressions varied, Monte! And they were positioned by rank! Quite a culture they had that far back! :thumbs: My mother and sister did visit China - I couldn't take time off from work to accompany them, but I wish I had - and they did see the Great Wall and so many other places of interest. As you know, I have been learning Mandarin Chinese, though...and people say English is difficult! :mrgreen:

Time for me to say good night now. It's been a busy day.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

I certainly did read your post! I just wasn't aware they had claimed those islands so very long ago. I love history, but China hasn't been covered as extensively as the Egyptians, as an example, but I was astonished at seeing the thousands of clay soldiers that protected the first Emperor of China when they were unearthed in an archeological dig! The time it must taken to do that was mind-boggling to me, since they weren't all the same - facial expressions varied, Monte! And they were positioned by rank! Quite a culture they had that far back! :thumbs: My mother and sister did visit China - I couldn't take time off from work to accompany them, but I wish I had - and they did see the Great Wall and so many other places of interest. As you know, I have been learning Mandarin Chinese, though...and people say English is difficult! :mrgreen:

Time for me to say good night now. It's been a busy day.

I remember that very impressive dig and would love to see it live! Have you been to see it? If not ill book us a flight next month if you have time. :party

Sleep well.:2wave:
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

I remember that very impressive dig and would love to see it live! Have you been to see it? If not ill book us a flight next month if you have time. :party

Sleep well.:2wave:

No, I haven't seen that in person; looking at pictures is mind-boggling enough! I have been to the Mayan/Aztec museum in Mexico City on a guided tour, though, and that has relics circa 1800 BC! I wonder what archeologists will say about us 2,000 years from now, assuming we don't incinerate ourselves first - we were among the first to travel throughout our solar system on a regular basis? :shock: Vacationing on Neptune might be interesting... :mrgreen:
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

You need a little more background. Upholding freedom of navigation has been a core vital interest of the US since our country's founding. Remember the Barbary pirates? In the South China Sea the US is doing nothing it has not done for over 60 years.

So has China threatened to deny this freedom of the seas or engaged in piracy then ?
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

No, I haven't seen that in person; looking at pictures is mind-boggling enough!

Indeed they are. Taken on my visit to the terracotta warriors museum Shaanxi Xi'An China in 2012. They don't actually allow you to take pictures at the main excavation hanger unfortunately. It was the same when I visited the Taj Mahal in India too where they actually confiscated your cameras at the entrance !

Weird

2014-12-07 19.27.01.jpg
 
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Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Indeed they are. Taken on my visit to the terracotta warriors museum Shaanxi Xi'An China in 2012. They don't actually allow you to take pictures at the main excavation hanger unfortunately. It was the same when I visited the Taj Mahal in India too where they actually confiscated your cameras at the entrance !

Weird

View attachment 67184918

Good morning, Flogger. :2wave:

Thanks for posting this photo! Lucky you! :thumbs: To know they did this with rudimentary tools is what makes it so impressive! I don't know if anyone has determined how long this must have taken, even with thousands of artisans, but it must have been years! Were you able to see the full size horses and chariots that were also fashioned from clay which were part of this exhibit? *shaking head in amazed wonder and respect for the talent shown* And to realize we haven't even yet seen the full size city complete with his many-roomed palace, which includes rooms of concubines, still buried underground - words fail me. :shock:
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Good morning, Flogger. :2wave:

Thanks for posting this photo! Lucky you! :thumbs: To know they did this with rudimentary tools is what makes it so impressive! I don't know if anyone has determined how long this must have taken, even with thousands of artisans, but it must have been years! Were you able to see the full size horses and chariots that were also fashioned from clay which were part of this exhibit? *shaking head in amazed wonder and respect for the talent shown* And to realize we haven't even yet seen the full size city complete with his many-roomed palace, which includes rooms of concubines, still buried underground - words fail me. :shock:

Its the scale of this place that is breathtaking and all the warriors have individual expressions. Some have battle scars and injuries on their faces and limbs too modelled after their real life counterparts. The chariots were indeed impressive, This whole site was discovered in 1974 when a Chinese farmer ploughing a field behind an ox bumped into the top knot of one of the soldiers. The rest as they say is history. It may be decades before its all revealed
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

So has China threatened to deny this freedom of the seas or engaged in piracy then ?

No piracy (yet) but they threatened the US aircraft flying in international air space.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

No piracy (yet) but they threatened the US aircraft flying in international air space.

I'd wager they would claim it was the other way round. I hope the Chinese are not dumb enough to get sucked into an arms race because of these US provocations. If they continued I'd simply call in my financial tab with the US if I were them .This sort of leverage wasn't available to the USSR back in the day so if the Chinese play the financial cards right it will be very interesting to see how things will play out economically. The Chinese could see their global hegemon arrive rather sooner than they thought
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

I'd wager they would claim it was the other way round. I hope the Chinese are not dumb enough to get sucked into an arms race because of these US provocations. If they continued I'd simply call in my financial tab with the US if I were them .This sort of leverage wasn't available to the USSR back in the day so if the Chinese play the financial cards right it will be very interesting to see how things will play out economically. The Chinese could see their global hegemon arrive rather sooner than they thought

Chinese financial leverage over the US is a myth. I'd be delighted if they tried something like that but they won't, because they know they've got nothing. As for "the other way around," the US aircraft was flying in international air space and the Chinese threats (eight, IIRC) were recorded.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

Chinese financial leverage over the US is a myth. I'd be delighted if they tried something like that but they won't, because they know they've got nothing. As for "the other way around," the US aircraft was flying in international air space and the Chinese threats (eight, IIRC) were recorded.

I seriously doubt the US debt to China is any sort of a myth. I'd also like to hear the Chinese version of events regarding this 'air space' incident too
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

I seriously doubt the US debt to China is any sort of a myth. I'd also like to hear the Chinese version of events regarding this 'air space' incident too

US debt owed to China is a very small part of US debt. Any attempt by China to "leverage" that debt would hurt them more than the US. As for the air space incident, I believe the transcript has been published.
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

US debt owed to China is a very small part of US debt. Any attempt by China to "leverage" that debt would hurt them more than the US.

I doubt that very much

As for the air space incident, I believe the transcript has been published.

The Chinese too ?
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

I doubt that very much



The Chinese too ?

". . . From the cockpit, Lt. Cmdr Matt Newman told CNN, "There's obviously a lot of surface traffic down there: Chinese warships, Chinese coast guard ships. They have air search radars, so there's a pretty good bet they're tracking us."

The proof was loud and clear. The Chinese navy ordered the P8 out of the airspace eight times on this mission alone.
Each time, the American pilots told them calmly and uniformly that the P8 was flying through international airspace.
That answer sometimes frustrated the Chinese radio operator on the other end.
Once he responds with exasperation: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!". . . "




  1. Exclusive: China warns U.S. spy plane - CNNPolitics.com

    www.cnn.com/2015/05/20/politics/south-china-sea-navy-flight/
  2. CNN


    May 20, 2015 - Above the South China Sea (CNN) The Chinese navy issued warnings ... The series of man-made islands and the massive Chinese military build-up on ... of China's building activity and audio of Chinese challenges of a U.S. aircraft. ... Soon after the Chinese communication was heard, its source appeared ...
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

I doubt that very much

". . . China’s hard currency hoard adds little punch to its geopolitical power because its stockpile results from a growth strategy that relies on an undervalued currency to keep exports competitive. If China threatens to reduce its investment in U.S. debt, it will either have to find alternative investments (not an easy task these days) or export less to the United States (not a good idea for Chinese manufacturers). Moreover, with so much invested in Western debt, China would suffer disastrous capital losses if it spooked financial markets. . . ."

Five myths about China's power - The Washington Post

Washington Post: Breaking News, World, US, DC News & Analysis...myths...chinas.../gIQA...


The Washington Post


Jan 20, 2012 - The much-feared scenario of China dumping U.S. sovereign debt on world markets to bend Washington to its will has not materialized — and ...
 
Re: Beijing warns US: 'We will fight back' as battle of words escalates over South Ch

The Chinese could see their global hegemon arrive rather sooner than they thought

If you honestly think that, you're not paying attention.
 
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