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Israel asking U.S. for 50% increase in next defense assistance package [W:98]

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Pretty hard to shoot down a rocket fired at you from an unarmed population. :) another one of those apparently nonexistent rockets fired today, in fact.

Oh, they have hammers, too. And spades. And pointy sticks. I guess that doesn't make them an "unarmed population", huh?

How many Israelis did these potassium-loaded flying objects killed? I'll bet they cost more Palestinian lives.


:shrug: it's not impossible, a lot of what Israel provides is intangible. How do you put a financial metric onto (for example) human intelligence that ISIL is planning an attack in (making something up) Spain?

Sure, 'cause if you don't grease 'em well, they just going to keep that for themselves (like they did with 9-11), huh? After all you and all the rest are merely goyim, between man and animal. Think not about what Israel can do for you, but rather what could you do for Israel, bud.
 
Now you're just citing known conspiracy theory websites with an anti-Israeli agenda. A tiny advice; stick to mainstream sources.

Please cite where this is in error then ? You've already been given a considerable list to choose from
 
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Please cite where this is in error then ?

The claim that Israel sold the Lavi aircraft (an indigenous Israeli technology by the way) and the Patriot missiles technologies to China is a baseless one. While it was made by Washington Times back in 1992, there was not a single evidence given to support that assertion, and as such it remains a baseless claim.

In 1992, the Washington Times alleged that exported American Patriot missiles and Israel's indigenous Lavi jet aircraft technology had been shared with China, although official U.S. investigations did not substantiate these charges.[48]

China

And regardless of the above when it comes to sites like globalresearch and WRMEA and other well-known conspiracy theory sites I tend to just ignore them. There is no reason at all that you wouldn't be able to find whatever it is you wish to find to support your assertions in the mainstream media.
 
Now you're just citing known conspiracy theory websites with an anti-Israeli agenda. A tiny advice; stick to mainstream sources.

I've long been of the opinion that requiring posters to reference legitimate news sites would improve this site greatly.

The constant parade of hate sites gets awfully irritating.
 
Nah - better to shoot the messenger.

This comment would have worked better had I not responded several minutes earlier with an answer to his question, y'know.

It's all about the timing.
 
The claim that Israel sold the Lavi aircraft (an indigenous Israeli technology by the way) and the Patriot missiles technologies to China is a baseless one.

So Israel developed US style stealth technologies all on its own to sell to them then ? :roll:

And regardless of the above when it comes to sites like globalresearch and WRMEA and other well-known conspiracy theory sites I tend to just ignore them.

I suppose dismissing them out of hand is easier than addressing what they are saying

In the early 1990s then-CIA Director James Woolsey told a Senate Government Affairs Committee that Israel had been selling U.S. secrets to China for about a decade. More than 12 years ago the U.S. demanded Israel cancel a contract to supply China with Python III missiles, which included technology developed by the U.S. for its Sidewinder missiles, The Associated Press reported in 2002.
 
So Israel developed US style stealth technologies all on its own to sell to them then ?

How did you manage to understand that?
Israel did not sell the Lavi aircraft technology, which isn't 'US style', by the way, but an Israeli indigenous technology, to the Chinese. That is a false, basless assertion, just like the claim it sold the Patriot missiles technology to China, as the Wiki article I've linked to shows.

In the early 1990s then-CIA Director James Woolsey told a Senate Government Affairs Committee that Israel had been selling U.S. secrets to China for about a decade. More than 12 years ago the U.S. demanded Israel cancel a contract to supply China with Python III missiles, which included technology developed by the U.S. for its Sidewinder missiles, The Associated Press reported in 2002.

As I stated in an earlier post in this thread there was only one instance when Israel had wronged the US over its trade with China, and it had apologized for it and the individual responsible had resigned from office. You still failed to take note of my own notation earlier that this incident is completely irrelevant when one is concerning himself with an analysis of the entire Israeli-American relationship.
 
How did you manage to understand that?
Israel did not sell the Lavi aircraft technology, which isn't 'US style', by the way, but an Israeli indigenous technology, to the Chinese. That is a false, basless assertion, just like the claim it sold the Patriot missiles technology to China, as the Wiki article I've linked to shows.



As I stated in an earlier post in this thread there was only one instance when Israel had wronged the US over its trade with China, and it had apologized for it and the individual responsible had resigned from office. You still failed to take note of my own notation earlier that this incident is completely irrelevant when one is concerning himself with an analysis of the entire Israeli-American relationship.

I guess you better take it up with ex CIA director James Woolsey then who clearly disagrees with you
 
Should we give Israel more aid? ...

yes, we should

and we should disburse it only when israel returns all of its forces and all of its settlers to the israeli borders identified by the UN

until that time, not only should israel be denied more monies, it should be denied any monies from the US taxpayer
if the nation of israel can afford to have its army occupy the lands of another people, then it does not need our subsidy
if the nation of israel can afford to construct and protect settlements, displacing the indigenous people who are lawfully entitled to those lands, then it does not need our subsidy

so, yes, provide israel with more financial assistance. but only when it withdraws to its own lawful borders
 
Oh, they have hammers, too. And spades. And pointy sticks. I guess that doesn't make them an "unarmed population", huh?

You can make weapons pretty easily, but I find the notion that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et. al are unarmed to be fairly entertaining. Do you often make ridiculously, obviously, blatantly untrue statements when discussing the Palestinians?

Sure, 'cause if you don't grease 'em well, they just going to keep that for themselves (like they did with 9-11), huh? After all you and all the rest are merely goyim, between man and animal. Think not about what Israel can do for you, but rather what could you do for Israel, bud.

:shrug: all nations tend to seek what their leadership perceives as the leaderships' self-interest, which generally overlaps heavily with the broader national interest.

But if you wish to be a 9/11 Truther, there is a forum for you here. Go be an anti-Semite nutter there.
 
Oh, they have hammers, too. And spades. And pointy sticks. I guess that doesn't make them an "unarmed population", huh?

How many Israelis did these potassium-loaded flying objects killed? I'll bet they cost more Palestinian lives.




Sure, 'cause if you don't grease 'em well, they just going to keep that for themselves (like they did with 9-11), huh? After all you and all the rest are merely goyim, between man and animal. Think not about what Israel can do for you, but rather what could you do for Israel, bud.

Careful buddy, criticism of the Jewish States FP is regularly mischaracterised as anti-semitism by the fringe right on this board.
 
Pretty much the same result with this all this kind of fantaisist tribal tripe. Religion has done much more harm than good over the years. Too bad you're falling for it hook, line and sinker.

It's been part of my life for 55 years. I'd be lost without it.

Next time, don't debate subjects you have no clue about.

If you want to learn about Christ and the Bible, the book itself and the Net are invaluable resources.
 
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That didn't answer my question

It did indeed. We are not under regular rocket attack.

And what problems did the US face in the region before its intimate involvement with Israel then

:raises eyebrows: regular warfare? Groups dedicated to destroying the western/American influence in the region? Destabilizing and dangerous moves by regimes inherently opposed to us and allied with the Soviets?

Remember, the US didn't begin its' "intimate involvement" with Israel until after the 1967 war - decades after "The America I Have Seen" and "Signposts" put America center in the cross-hairs of the Sunni Islamist movement.

But you are OK with Israel having them though ? Thats never going to work out very well

It seems to have worked out very well indeed. It has keept Arab nation-states in check (obviously it would not keep the Islamic State in check, and it is a coin flip whether it would keep the Islamic Republic in check), and done it's part to turn the region from one that see's regular large-scale wars between nation-states to one that see's wars against non-nation-state networks.

Lets just say for arguments sake Israel had fallen during the 1973 Yom Kippur conflict. How do you think the US position in the region would be different today ?

Hm. Its' an interesting counterfactual. Probably we would have gone to war against Egypt and Syria during the resultant mass bloodbath of Israeli citizens. One thing Kissinger and Nixon weren't afraid of was sending in the Marines to teach third world countries a lesson. Given their backing, it's not impossible it would have sparked a kinetic conflict with the Soviet Union (people underestimate how very friggin hair-trigger the 1973 fight was), although a more likely scenario is that they funnel support to Syria (but not Egypt) to increase American casualties and drain American resources. Post Vietnam, our military would have had good combat experience, but incredibly low morale - whether or not some good victories in the desert against enemies we can see would have helped or not is a coin toss. A long and painful partial occupation of the territory currently covered by Israel and Palestine would have probably followed, but we would have lacked the ability to go further. Egypt's junta would have been unlikely to survive both the war and its aftermath, and Egypt today would probably be ruled by an Islamist Theocracy, similar to Iran.

So we would be in a much, much, much worse position, far more exposed, with significantly larger casualties and much higher, much more constant costs.

On the contrary it was a touchstone for its dissent. By Bin Laden’s own account, this is why al Qaeda attacked America. His critique has never been cultural; he never mentions Madonna, Hollywood, homosexuality or drugs in his diatribes. US support for Israel, especially the support it gave to Israel’s invasion of southern Lebanon in 1982, first triggered Bin Laden’s anti-Americanism.

Bin Laden's declaration of War mentions the word "Israel" twice, and both times it is to speak of the "Israel-America" faction that he accuses of supporting the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia (who had made effective peace with Israel). When he mentions the Palestinians he puts them as simply another in a list of victims that include Muslims in the Philippines, Burma, Somalia, Kashmir, Tajikistan, and Bosnia. Bin Laden had two major "touchstones" for his "dissent" - firstly when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan (which the Palestinians supported), and secondly when the Government of Saudi Arabia rejected his offer for aid against Saddam Hussein in favor of U.S. assistance. The presence of US forces in Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf is the center of his declaration of war.

Furthermore, the Sunni extremist critique is deeply cultural, and has been since the 1920s.
 
You can make weapons pretty easily, but I find the notion that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et. al are unarmed to be fairly entertaining. Do you often make ridiculously, obviously, blatantly untrue statements when discussing the Palestinians?

Palestine? Give me a break. The Palestinians have been disarmed since the British mandate.

Hizbollah, now that's a minimally armed group. And indeed they were a much less easy target for those poor Israelis, that have been busy "waging war" on people armed with sticks and stones up until that time. Israelis used to wage war against real armies like Egypt's in the past, but for a couple of decades now, they fight against beggars and vagrants - and yet when one listen to them, they are always the victims! Victims with un-registered nukes, that is. There is only ignominy in the IDF's petty "victories" of late.

:shrug: all nations tend to seek what their leadership perceives as the leaderships' self-interest, which generally overlaps heavily with the broader national interest.

But if you wish to be a 9/11 Truther, there is a forum for you here. Go be an anti-Semite nutter there.

What interests would Israel have in not preventing an ally from a possible attack? Heck, it is your ally and they didn't even prevented you about 9-11... Some allies you have there. Now leave your computer for a while and go earn some more money, so that your govt can give part of it to Israel. You don't want to be accused of antisemitism, do you? Come on, work that arse off for the eternal martyrs, my goy friend.
 
It did indeed. We are not under regular rocket attack.

More like firework attack from what I've seen

:raises eyebrows: regular warfare? Groups dedicated to destroying the western/American influence in the region? Destabilizing and dangerous moves by regimes inherently opposed to us and allied with the Soviets?
Really who ?

Remember, the US didn't begin its' "intimate involvement" with Israel until after the 1967 war - decades after "The America I Have Seen" and "Signposts" put America center in the cross-hairs of the Sunni Islamist movement.

What Islamist attacks on Americas regional interests had there been before 1967 then ?

It seems to have worked out very well indeed. It has keept Arab nation-states in check (obviously it would not keep the Islamic State in check, and it is a coin flip whether it would keep the Islamic Republic in check), and done it's part to turn the region from one that see's regular large-scale wars between nation-states to one that see's wars against non-nation-state networks.
And has destabilised the region for decades. As long as this strategic imbalance remains these states will want such weapons

Hm. Its' an interesting counterfactual. Probably we would have gone to war against Egypt and Syria during the resultant mass bloodbath of Israeli citizens. One thing Kissinger and Nixon weren't afraid of was sending in the Marines to teach third world countries a lesson. Given their backing, it's not impossible it would have sparked a kinetic conflict with the Soviet Union (people underestimate how very friggin hair-trigger the 1973 fight was), although a more likely scenario is that they funnel support to Syria (but not Egypt) to increase American casualties and drain American resources. Post Vietnam, our military would have had good combat experience, but incredibly low morale - whether or not some good victories in the desert against enemies we can see would have helped or not is a coin toss. A long and painful partial occupation of the territory currently covered by Israel and Palestine would have probably followed, but we would have lacked the ability to go further. Egypt's junta would have been unlikely to survive both the war and its aftermath, and Egypt today would probably be ruled by an Islamist Theocracy, similar to Iran.
All pretty unlikely given the US was licking its wounds after its Vietnam debacle. Any president suggesting another foreign entanglement immediately afterwards would not have remained in office too long

So we would be in a much, much, much worse position, far more exposed, with significantly larger casualties and much higher, much more constant costs.
On the contrary I think the region would be pretty much at peace now with relatively affluent societies much like the UAE or Bahrain or like the Lebanon was before the mid 70s. There may be the odd Hussein style despot but we would see nothing like the regional instability we currently do.
 
More like firework attack from what I've seen

When have you been to Israel, exactly?
This 'firework' falling 10 meters away from you and the nails the terrorists fill them with will make short work of your brains if the explosion wouldn't.
Quite arrogant to be describing it as 'firework' when it's not your house that is being the target to thousands of them, but then again you do base your entire opinion on conspiracy theory hate sites as proven a few pages ago so that explains it.
 
What interests would Israel have in not preventing an ally from a possible attack? Heck, it is your ally and they didn't even prevented you about 9-11...

I'm guessing you've meant to say that Israel had known of 9/11 and hadn't warned the US. And you say that based on what, exactly? A gut feeling? Some dream maybe? A voice in your head?
 
When have you been to Israel, exactly?
This 'firework' falling 10 meters away from you and the nails the terrorists fill them with will make short work of your brains if the explosion wouldn't.
Quite arrogant to be describing it as 'firework' when it's not your house that is being the target to thousands of them, but then again you do base your entire opinion on conspiracy theory hate sites as proven a few pages ago so that explains it.

Of course they are just doing this for no reason and out of pure spite right ?

What has any of this got to do with the US annual multibillion dollar gift from its taxpayers being increased ?
 
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