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Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

You right wingers always want your ****ing boots on the ground. Get Cameron to lead your coalition, the US is OUT!!

So you literally are happy for ISIS to take the middle east? Also no where did I say the US should lead any attack against ISIS.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS


Extremists are the same no matter their skin shades or religion. Give a single good movement, and I'll identify you its extremist wing.

You have extremists of your own, don't doubt it for a minute. If I was to have the mindset for it, it would be easy for me to lump you among them as soon as it serves my polemic needs
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

I'll agree that with 20/20 hindsight, going into Iraq was a bad idea, and that the decisions leading up to it was based on bad intel and / or analysis from a wide variety of sources that seemed to corroborate each other. 20/20 hindsight is kinda like that.

Going forward, I'm not sure if it's the best idea to disengage, walk away, and watch sectarian violence armed with nuclear weapons and their proliferation take the Middle East, and yes, that means extremist Islamic groups, the suicide bombers, gain these powerful weapons to sneak into someplace and detonate. It sounds like one of the many possible scenarios leading to the apocalypse, if not in biblical terms, certainly in terms destruction, contamination and human strife.

I'm convinced that even if Saddam or his sons had remained in power, this pot would have boiled over at some point. I'd be happy with just keeping the arms fire nuclear free.

The intel was being actively skewed to fit the narrative.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Extremists are the same no matter their skin shades or religion. Give a single good movement, and I'll identify you its extremist wing.

You have extremists of your own, don't doubt it for a minute. If I was to have the mindset for it, it would be easy for me to lump you among them as soon as it serves my polemic needs

Sorry, you don't get to make that claim without providing your own evidence. Please show me suicide bombers not affiliated to Islam. I'll spot you the Kamikaze from 70 years ago, but how many more can you name?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

I'll agree that with 20/20 hindsight, going into Iraq was a bad idea, and that the decisions leading up to it was based on bad intel and / or analysis from a wide variety of sources that seemed to corroborate each other. 20/20 hindsight is kinda like that.

Going forward, I'm not sure if it's the best idea to disengage, walk away, and watch sectarian violence armed with nuclear weapons and their proliferation take the Middle East, and yes, that means extremist Islamic groups, the suicide bombers, gain these powerful weapons to sneak into someplace and detonate. It sounds like one of the many possible scenarios leading to the apocalypse, if not in biblical terms, certainly in terms destruction, contamination and human strife.

I'm convinced that even if Saddam or his sons had remained in power, this pot would have boiled over at some point. I'd be happy with just keeping the arms fire nuclear free.

When it comes to nukes, the only ones that we really have to worry about are Pakistan and Iran. There was an al-Qaeda-led rebellion in Pakistan a few years ago that was stopped (with our support), and we're working with Iran to get them to agree to not work on producing nukes.

We did the right thing on Pakistan (whose nukes are the major reason why we keep military presence in Afghanistan - and why I agree that we should do so). But when it comes to Iran, Obama's been doing the right thing - keep the economic pressure on, get them to want to agree with us while at the same time allowing them to save face on the home front; this is known as diplomacy.

HOWEVER, when all we do is tell them, "shut it down or we will bomb you," all that does is make them even more determined to build the bomb. I mean, think about it - if someone told America, "Don't build anymore nukes or we will bomb you!", what do you think we'd do? We'd build more bombs, bigger bombs, and do it faster still. This is why the "do what we say or we will bomb you" approach of the GOP is stupid on an epic scale - they seem to think that our big-assed military hammer is the only diplomatic tool they will ever need.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

What had become of them were that what remained after the Iran/Iraq war was corroded unusable and scattered all over the place. There was therefore nothing to show. The US would simply have moved the goalposts anyway whatever he did because they already knew there was nothing to find

That would not have been such a problem. Had Saddam let the inspectors roam freely and shown, where the remains were etc, the administration could not have "moved the goalpost" nor invaded. Never ever. That is not the way the Us works.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Sorry, you don't get to make that claim without providing your own evidence. Please show me suicide bombers not affiliated to Islam. I'll spot you the Kamikaze from 70 years ago, but how many more can you name?

"Evidences" are all over the place. During the American Revolution, there were some on your side (as well as on the other side, any other side) that wanted nothing but victory or death. Yeah, they were ready to die. They are now celebrated as heroes by your people, don't they?

Did that meant that your nation (assuming it is the USA) is now a death cult?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Did African Americans have it great after the Emancipation Proclamation? Should Lincoln not have done it then?

We don't know exactly how things will turn out yet in Iraq, even though it doesn't look good now. Who would think that they wouldn't value democracy, certainly not Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, John Kerry, and most other members of Congress at the time.

Imposing democracy on nations that have never had it is fraught with unintended consequences. The desire for democracy must come from within as must the defense of a nation.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

That would not have been such a problem. Had Saddam let the inspectors roam freely and shown, where the remains were etc, the administration could not have "moved the goalpost" nor invaded. Never ever. That is not the way the Us works.

Really ? I've got two words for you then.

Tonkin Gulf
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

So you literally are happy for ISIS to take the middle east? Also no where did I say the US should lead any attack against ISIS.

I was opposed to war with Iraq in 2002 when Bush and Blair were blowing smoke up everybody's asses about it. Without that folly, there'd be no Islamic State running about the region wrecking havoc.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

That would not have been such a problem. Had Saddam let the inspectors roam freely and shown, where the remains were etc, the administration could not have "moved the goalpost" nor invaded. Never ever. That is not the way the Us works.

JFC are you ever naive. Yes Lilly White US would never do such a thing. :roll:
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

I was opposed to war with Iraq in 2002 when Bush and Blair were blowing smoke up everybody's asses about it. Without that folly, there'd be no Islamic State running about the region wrecking havoc.

Well you can't turn back time, so what do you think should happen with the current situation? Do you think we should leave Iraq to ISIS?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

When it comes to nukes, the only ones that we really have to worry about are Pakistan and Iran. There was an al-Qaeda-led rebellion in Pakistan a few years ago that was stopped (with our support), and we're working with Iran to get them to agree to not work on producing nukes.

You're expecting Iran to keep it's word? To honor it's commitment to the West's nations in the P5+1 talks?


My, my, aren't you the unrealistic one.

We did the right thing on Pakistan (whose nukes are the major reason why we keep military presence in Afghanistan - and why I agree that we should do so). But when it comes to Iran, Obama's been doing the right thing - keep the economic pressure on, get them to want to agree with us while at the same time allowing them to save face on the home front; this is known as diplomacy.

I agree with you that it's important to keep forces in Afghanistan to keep an eye on the Paki nukes, however, I don't agree with you that Obama's been keeping the economic pressure on, in fact, he's been loosening them, as he loses the negotiations by walking backwards step by step. Seems that the Iranians are far too sharp for him and his negotiators, who similarly lost the same type of engagement with North Korea.

Articles: Meet Wendy Sherman, architect of appeasement disasters in nuclear negotiations with North Korea and Iran

Originally a social worker, Sherman began her career working to help battered women and the urban poor.[3]
. . . .
Chief US nuclear negotiator with Iran
On September 21, 2011, she was appointed to the position of Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs by Hillary Rodham Clinton, the United States Secretary of State.[5] In this capacity, Sherman has led the US team during six negotiating rounds between Iran and six world powers about Tehran's nuclear program.
In October 2013, before negotiations began in Geneva between Iran and the so-called "P5+1," she made a comment about the Iranian negotiating strategy in a Senate committee hearing. She said, "We know that deception is part of the DNA."[6] This caused her some trouble when a number of Iranian officials, including some members of the country's parliament, asked her to apologize.[7]

North Korea nuclear negotiations

Wendy Sherman was the Clinton administration's policy coordinator for North Korea.
Wendy Sherman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is it with this administration? First a community organizer president, and now a social worker negotiating nuclear arms agreements?


HOWEVER, when all we do is tell them, "shut it down or we will bomb you," all that does is make them even more determined to build the bomb. I mean, think about it - if someone told America, "Don't build anymore nukes or we will bomb you!", what do you think we'd do? We'd build more bombs, bigger bombs, and do it faster still. This is why the "do what we say or we will bomb you" approach of the GOP is stupid on an epic scale - they seem to think that our big-assed military hammer is the only diplomatic tool they will ever need.

Not sure that's what the GOP is saying. I think that's just what you hear. I think the GOP is more so saying 'don't lift any economic sanctions' as it's one of the few leverage points we have with Iran.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

The intel was being actively skewed to fit the narrative.

Interesting that the intel came from a number of nation's intelligence services, all corroborating each other. So all these intelligence services were skewing the intel?

How large is this conspiracy? Large enough that there'd be no way in hell of keeping a lid on it.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

You're expecting Iran to keep it's word? To honor it's commitment to the West's nations in the P5+1 talks?

What is it with this administration? First a community organizer president, and now a social worker negotiating nuclear arms agreements?

Not sure that's what the GOP is saying. I think that's just what you hear. I think the GOP is more so saying 'don't lift any economic sanctions' as it's one of the few leverage points we have with Iran.

Mm-hmm. Y'know, you're a wonderful example of just what I was talking about: the "do what we say or we bomb you" mindset that seems to be the only tool in the conservative diplomatic toolbox.

I want to ask you two questions:

(1) If a much stronger nation told a much weaker America that if we didn't scrap our entire bomb-making infrastructure, they'd bomb us and maybe even invade us, what do you think we'd do. Do you think we'd knuckle under, or would we redouble our efforts to build bombs?

(2) Considering your answer to the previous question, what the hell makes you think that the Iranians would react any differently?

This is why we do things like use REAL diplomacy - which, if you knew half as much as you think you do about diplomacy, is not the panty-waisted appeasement process you seem to think. There's a reason why diplomacy is often called "the velvet glove that covers the mail'd fist". Think about it.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Well you can't turn back time, so what do you think should happen with the current situation? Do you think we should leave Iraq to ISIS?

Perfect time for Israel, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, and the rest to put their petty differences aside and face a gang of despots that threatens all of them. But US, no, I made myself clear to you in the first post.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Interesting that the intel came from a number of nation's intelligence services, all corroborating each other. So all these intelligence services were skewing the intel?

How large is this conspiracy? Large enough that there'd be no way in hell of keeping a lid on it.

To the bolded. No, that was BushCo that was massaging the intell, and there's plenty of corroboration on that. What's with you guys anyway, what's in it for you to defend that bastard administration to the death, hmm. Wtf is it???
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Increase bombing, I would form together a collation of countries which would include Saudi Arabia/othe arab nations and get boots on the ground asap.

This is happening now. Canada has boots on the ground and is involved actively in bombing raids both inside Syria and in Iraq. In fact, a Canadian soldier was killed in the fighting although Canadian troops are not officially involved in combat there.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

"Evidences" are all over the place. During the American Revolution, there were some on your side (as well as on the other side, any other side) that wanted nothing but victory or death. Yeah, they were ready to die. They are now celebrated as heroes by your people, don't they?

Did that meant that your nation (assuming it is the USA) is now a death cult?

Not comparable at all. Suicide bombers WANT to die for their cause, US soldiers don't WANT to die for their cause.

If that is the best you got then you lose.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Not comparable at all. Suicide bombers WANT to die for their cause, US soldiers don't WANT to die for their cause.

Yet some of them do. And not only that, those that do are deified by the population after "their sacrifice". It's exactly the same thing. Don't be hypocritical.

If that is the best you got then you lose.

Yet it was more than what you can deal with. Sorry for making you look bad.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Yet some of them do. And not only that, those that do are deified by the population after "their sacrifice". It's exactly the same thing. Don't be hypocritical.

No, it isn't the same thing at all. If you are unable to see the difference then you are a lost cause.

Coincidentally, do you see firefighters the same way? None of them want to die but risk their lives anyway and some even die... is that the same as a suicide bomber strapping on a vest and blowing themselves up in a disco?

How about a police officer who runs into a collapsing building? They know they are risking their lives... are they just glorified suicide bombers?

I'm wanting to know, really, how deep this delusion of yours actually runs.


Yet it was more than what you can deal with. Sorry for making you look bad.

Don't worry, you aren't making me look bad.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

No, it isn't the same thing at all. If you are unable to see the difference then you are a lost cause.

Coincidentally, do you see firefighters the same way? None of them want to die but risk their lives anyway and some even die... is that the same as a suicide bomber strapping on a vest and blowing themselves up in a disco?

How about a police officer who runs into a collapsing building? They know they are risking their lives... are they just glorified suicide bombers?

Just because your bombers kill people in the comfort of a high-altitude plane does not make him any better than the one who straps explosives around himself. Both are killers, except one of them dies.

And, of course, when you can afford the luxury of defeating your ennemy and not dying, it's usually a much better deal, ain't it? But it isn't everyone who can afford these luxuries. In some place, sacrifices above and beyond the call of duty are in order.

Death is a job aspect that every policemen and firemen know about. And many of them will gladly die if others are saved, if the stakes are high enough, just like spies that get caught abroad. Doesn't mean your country is a death cult for that matter, and neither is Palestine. Their deaths are sacrifices in their minds, just like the dead war heroes you guys deify.

I'm wanting to know, really, how deep this delusion of yours actually runs.

I question your ability to comprehend... but serve yourself.

Don't worry, you aren't making me look bad.

You are able to do it on your own?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Just because your bombers kill people in the comfort of a high-altitude plane does not make him any better than the one who straps explosives around himself. Both are killers, except one of them dies.

One WANTS to die and the other doesn't. Do we need to start again? My point that you decided to challenge was that M.A.D. deterrent is not effective when one side wants to die. Your argument was that "no side wants to die" ... and you are proving that by saying the only difference between a bomber crew and a suicide bomber in that the bomber crew doesn't want to die? You are thrusting a dagger into the heart of your argument and declaring success.

And, of course, when you can afford the luxury of defeating your ennemy and not dying, it's usually a much better deal, ain't it? But it isn't everyone who can afford these luxuries. In some place, sacrifices above and beyond the call of duty are in order.

Ah, so some people are so bereft of luxuries that the only way they can conduct a war is by blowing up discos? :roll:

Death is a job aspect that every policemen and firemen know about. And many of them will gladly die if others are saved, if the stakes are high enough, just like spies that get caught abroad.

Yes, so dying trying to save others is noble. Blowing yourself up on purpose is meant to save nobody.

Doesn't mean your country is a death cult for that matter, and neither is Palestine.

People in Palestine cheer in the streets on news of innocent dead. And cheer in the streets at the news of a dead suicide bomber. That is a death cult.

Their deaths are sacrifices in their minds, just like the dead war heroes you guys deify.

No, wrong. They don't see their deaths as sacrifice, they see their deaths as personal gain. Again, they WANT to die. A simple fact that you have now agreed with on your quest to prove otherwise.

Back to my original point: people who WANT to die are not governed by the central tenets of the M.A.D. deterrent.

I question your ability to comprehend... but serve yourself.

You are able to do it on your own?

Cute!
 
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Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

The same group that deceived us and Mary Tillman about how her son died. The same group that deceived us regarding Jessica Lynch's experiences. The same group that deceives us about Abbottabad, that same group of known liars, that Cult Of Mendacity, the Pentagon.

As Ike liked to call the group, the Military Industrial Complex and its corporate media. That is who deceived us. Some have been deceived, others have come to realize they've been deceived. :peace

Who exactly in the Pentagon?
 
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