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Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Increase bombing, I would form together a collation of countries which would include Saudi Arabia/othe arab nations and get boots on the ground asap.

We've been bombing places for 14 years now, has that produced anything? We had many boots on the ground for these 14 years, where are we? I mean something tangible. Do you have an actual plan for securing the ME and for the vilians of the countries to hold their governments once we are gone?

No plan, no dice. Our intervention has made matters worse, not better. More of the same will not miraculously reverse the trend. Real plans, real goals, real time lines. If ya got one, then let's figure it out. If you don't, then we shouldn't be fighting. "No Plan" is not a way to run an interventionist, occupation war.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Would posters prefer we left Iraq to fight alone even if this meant that ISIS took full control of the region?
Alone?
I thought Russia, Iran and some other countries were offering assistance.

Also, is there some middle which you have excluded in the options you listed?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

It was the US presence in the region that caused the terrorist threat to exist in the first place. Hussein may well have been a repressive dictator but he kept such groups well in check and was no friend of Muslim fundamentalism which threatened his own position.

Hussein and his offspring were the devil we knew and could cope with. Now look what we've got :(

We can cope with ISIS, we just choose not to. Don't mistake the barbarism you see in our absence with how things would be if US troops were still in Iraq.

Saddam murdered an estimate of 1 million people in his 25 years in power. ISIS is small time compared to Saddam.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Alone?
I thought Russia, Iran and some other countries were offering assistance.

Also, is there some middle which you have excluded in the options you listed?

Well, then, would Americans prefer that Iraq become a puppet of Iran?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

We've been bombing places for 14 years now, has that produced anything? We had many boots on the ground for these 14 years, where are we? I mean something tangible. Do you have an actual plan for securing the ME and for the vilians of the countries to hold their governments once we are gone?

No plan, no dice. Our intervention has made matters worse, not better. More of the same will not miraculously reverse the trend. Real plans, real goals, real time lines. If ya got one, then let's figure it out. If you don't, then we shouldn't be fighting. "No Plan" is not a way to run an interventionist, occupation war.

Any plan should be headed up by the other araba nations with the US, UK etc giving support. The issue with the last 14 years is that we were trying to occupy the region, what's needed for this fight is small rapid response units that can be dispatched anywhere in the region, fight ISIS and then return back to a neutral zone.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

It isn't my sole statement - it is a consensus that you are going against. I don't get the feel that the Bush administration would invade Iraq if they knew what we now know. Do you?



Politics are as much about what you don't know than what you know. It's easy to be armchair analysts here with the benefit of retrospect, but for Hussein, apparent weakness in his own country was something he couldn't have survived. Beside, the idea the US attacking Iraq was almost surrealistic before it happen - a solid part of the planet figured it was just posturing, since it was clear that there was no reasons to invade Iraq whatsoever.



So Israel and the KSA can do but Iraq can't? You can't be the policemen of the world if you have a measure for each weight that you come across. Poeple just see throught this, you know, and hardly accept such geometrically variable values. Be consistant.

- Possibly not. Possibly they would have done it differently. "What if" won't get us anywhere. At the time and with the knowledge available it was decision that was not wrong.
- You are right that politics is often about statistical type knowledge. In the case of Saddam the debriefing of the his inner circle indicated that he wanted the neighborhood to think he still had the wmd and that Putin, Schröder and Chirac would protect him from invasion. Even this might be wrong and the various people lying, but it is a believable explanation.
- Yes. As far as I am concerned it is better Israel have Nukes than Iraq or Iran. No doubt in my mind. That would change, if the the UN were reliably responsible for robustly protecting populations and stopping wars. But as it is? Everyone responsible for family and friends themselves? Nope. Not now the way it is.
You see, it is not a question of fairness and all that. It is much more archaic. It is a question of allies and enemies in deadly circumstances.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Well, then, would Americans prefer that Iraq become a puppet of Iran?
Are ISIS and Iran the only choices on the buffet?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Lets not forget who his buddies were at the height of his killing spree

View attachment 67184779

» Donald Rumsfeld Shakes Hands With Saddam Hussein

That wasn't the height of his killing spree. That was taken in 1983.

US support for Iraq was always limited. There is a reason why US M1A Abrams tanks were destroying Soviet T-72s in the Gulf War rather than US M-84s that we sold to our actual allies in the region.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

- Possibly not. Possibly they would have done it differently. "What if" won't get us anywhere. At the time and with the knowledge available it was decision that was not wrong.

But they did have the knowledge that Iraq was no WMD threat and both Colin Powell and Condi Rice were quite up front about it before 9/11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUNsv66m8Rw

- You are right that politics is often about statistical type knowledge.

And its often just outright lies that represent a fabricated means to an end too. The whole WMD thing was just such a lie. Bush needed the Iraq war in light of his failure to find his chosen culprit for 9/11 in Afghanistan. Failure was not an option and another bogeyman had to be found. Hussein fit the bill nicely with the prospect of a short victorious war before the 2004 elections. What wasn't to like ?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

After leading in the region for so many years, sure a stumble to allow ISIS to raise, wouldn't it be the height of irresponsibility to now just walk away?

After all Pottery Barn rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, true?

How much harsher the judgement and distrustful the allies if the US just walks away? Can we really afford that?

Y'all really don't get it. It's not a matter of overwhelming military might. It's a matter of religious differences, Sunni v. Shi'a. It's almost never a good idea to get in between two people who are fighting, because all too often you get hurt and they both wind up hating you. Same thing there - it doesn't matter who we side with, neither side really wants us there because both of them believe that we don't belong there. To them, all we are is a tool to use to attack the other side...or to rally the faithful i.e. "See how the Great Satan is on the side of the apostate Sunni! Let's rally and defeat them!"

There's a time to take action...and there's a time to walk away and let them sort things out by themselves. This is one of the latter. Thankfully, Obama seems to understand that, too.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

That wasn't the height of his killing spree. That was taken in 1983.

Which was the bloodiest year of the Iran/Iraq war. A war Hussein initiated with barely a murmer from the US unlike with Kuwait a decade later
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

- Possibly not. Possibly they would have done it differently. "What if" won't get us anywhere. At the time and with the knowledge available it was decision that was not wrong.

I remember that time and the forum discussions I had when it was unfolding itself: There never was any positive proof that it was worth the venture, ever. Your politicians were, at that time, focused on the outrage of 9-11, and it was all the proof that many short-sighted people needed to have to let go the dogs of war.

- You are right that politics is often about statistical type knowledge. In the case of Saddam the debriefing of the his inner circle indicated that he wanted the neighborhood to think he still had the wmd and that Putin, Schröder and Chirac would protect him from invasion. Even this might be wrong and the various people lying, but it is a believable explanation.

Agreed.

- Yes. As far as I am concerned it is better Israel have Nukes than Iraq or Iran. No doubt in my mind.

Why is that? Nukes can stabilize a region much more than 15 years of peacekeeping. Where's there nukes on both sides, people tend to keep cooler. For my part, I fear much more Israeli nukes than whatever WMDs the Iraqi might have had - they look like "if we lose a war, we suicide everything" kinda nukes, in the hands of, once again, a xenophobic, aggressive military nation that follows the Uber-race vs the Unter-ones narrative in its quest for lenbensraum.

That would change, if the the UN were reliably responsible for robustly protecting populations and stopping wars. But as it is? Everyone responsible for family and friends themselves? Nope. Not now the way it is.

The UN only has the strength you, the USA, chose to give it. The US does not want a strong UN, and so, they veto about everything that would make them so. You have only yourself to blame if you think the UN isn't strong enough.

You see, it is not a question of fairness and all that. It is much more archaic. It is a question of allies and enemies in deadly circumstances.

With allies like Israel, you don't need enemies - Israel will find them for you, when they're not actively trying to undermine or manipulate you. If Iraq did half of the wrongs that Israel did upon you, IMO it would have been reasons enough to nuke them into the glass age.

And if you guys want to be policemen of the world, it's about time you learn about justice and consistancy in your politics. Otherwise, leave that to others. It won't matter soon anyway - you had your turn at the bat, and got retired because of all those foul balls. Just get out of Iraq and stop doing this, willya?
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Which was the bloodiest year of the Iran/Iraq war. A war Hussein initiated with barely a murmer from the US unlike with Kuwait a decade later

You are confusing war casualties with murder. Saddam's atrocities began in earnest years after that photo was taken with the Al-Anfal genocide of the Iraqi Kurds. This lead to the US dropping support for Hussein.

I mean we can play the photo shoot game all day if you want. Was FDR responsible for Joseph Stalin? I have pictures of the two together!
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

But they did have the knowledge that Iraq was no WMD threat and both Colin Powell and Condi Rice were quite up front about it before 9/11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUNsv66m8Rw



And its often just outright lies that represent a fabricated means to an end too. The whole WMD thing was just such a lie. Bush needed the Iraq war in light of his failure to find his chosen culprit for 9/11 in Afghanistan. Failure was not an option and another bogeyman had to be found. Hussein fit the bill nicely with the prospect of a short victorious war before the 2004 elections. What wasn't to like ?

Do you have the context of the YouTube?
without it the snippets are not of value. This is especially true after Saddam risking his life rather than showing the inspectors what had become of them.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Why is that? Nukes can stabilize a region much more than 15 years of peacekeeping. Where's there nukes on both sides, people tend to keep cooler. For my part, I fear much more Israeli nukes than whatever WMDs the Iraqi might have had - they look like "if we lose a war, we suicide everything" kinda nukes, in the hands of, once again, a xenophobic, aggressive military nation that follows the Uber-race vs the Unter-ones narrative in its quest for lenbensraum.

M.A.D. only works when neither side wants to die.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Y'all really don't get it. It's not a matter of overwhelming military might. It's a matter of religious differences, Sunni v. Shi'a. It's almost never a good idea to get in between two people who are fighting, because all too often you get hurt and they both wind up hating you. Same thing there - it doesn't matter who we side with, neither side really wants us there because both of them believe that we don't belong there. To them, all we are is a tool to use to attack the other side...or to rally the faithful i.e. "See how the Great Satan is on the side of the apostate Sunni! Let's rally and defeat them!"

There's a time to take action...and there's a time to walk away and let them sort things out by themselves. This is one of the latter. Thankfully, Obama seems to understand that, too.

I'll agree that with 20/20 hindsight, going into Iraq was a bad idea, and that the decisions leading up to it was based on bad intel and / or analysis from a wide variety of sources that seemed to corroborate each other. 20/20 hindsight is kinda like that.

Going forward, I'm not sure if it's the best idea to disengage, walk away, and watch sectarian violence armed with nuclear weapons and their proliferation take the Middle East, and yes, that means extremist Islamic groups, the suicide bombers, gain these powerful weapons to sneak into someplace and detonate. It sounds like one of the many possible scenarios leading to the apocalypse, if not in biblical terms, certainly in terms destruction, contamination and human strife.

I'm convinced that even if Saddam or his sons had remained in power, this pot would have boiled over at some point. I'd be happy with just keeping the arms fire nuclear free.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Do you have the context of the YouTube?
without it the snippets are not of value. This is especially true after Saddam risking his life rather than showing the inspectors what had become of them.

What had become of them were that what remained after the Iran/Iraq war was corroded unusable and scattered all over the place. There was therefore nothing to show. The US would simply have moved the goalposts anyway whatever he did because they already knew there was nothing to find
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

But he is gone, im talking about right now.

And we are talking about being sick and tired of more wars to go back and fix what previous wars have broken!!! No, hell no. Go get Cameron to do something!
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Increase bombing, I would form together a collation of countries which would include Saudi Arabia/othe arab nations and get boots on the ground asap.

You right wingers always want your ****ing boots on the ground. Get Cameron to lead your coalition, the US is OUT!!
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

You right wingers always want your ****ing boots on the ground. Get Cameron to lead your coalition, the US is OUT!!

What makes you think that we want in ? The last war cost Blair his premiership I doubt Cameron will want to emulate that
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

M.A.D. only works when neither side wants to die.

There is no sides "that wants to die".

Contrarly to what some might believe, there is but one race, the Human one, and among the human race it is customary to love children and try to have a prosperous life. If you aim to write that some humans are born to kill others without even enjoying life of their own, I think you are subjected to severe, and possibly harmful delusions
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

What makes you think that we want in ? The last war cost Blair his premiership I doubt Cameron will want to emulate that

We'll............Higgins seems to be chomping at the bit. I think your parliament has indicated a lack of will.
 
Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

There is no sides "that wants to die".

Contrarly to what some might believe, there is but one race, the Human one, and among the human race it is customary to love children and try to have a prosperous life. If you aim to write that some humans are born to kill others without even enjoying life of their own, I think you are subjected to severe, and possibly harmful delusions

Let me introduce you to militant Islam.
 
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