Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

imagep · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
Here Buffet is correct. So is Paul Ryan, who has called not only for expanding the EIC, but for making it payable as part of a monthly stipend, so that you are increasing low-income Americans monthly take-home pay with it, vice simply providing them with a once-a-year lump-sum.

You conservatives are all about subsidizing low wage paying companies and increasing welfare.

Gimmesometruth · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

WSUwarrior said:
Its not their fault...its the governments fault for not giving them better choices...or just getting the hell out of the way. Most societal problems can be traced back to the federal government...a federal government that you support the expansion of.

Oooh, another thinking problem, the states have a much greater role in public school curriculum.

imagep · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

As an employer, I really hope that minimum wage does not rise, and that means tested welfare programs are expanded. That way I can pay **** wages, and let the taxpayer take care of my employees.

I will then be able to put more money into my personal bank account, which I can use on my annual caribbean cruse (thanks taxpayers).

cpwill · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

imagep said:
You conservatives are all about subsidizing low wage paying companies and increasing welfare.

1. It's not subsidizing low-wage-paying companies. There is zero forcing function in either direction. It is about subsidizing low-income workers.

2. Paul Ryan's plan would indeed increase EITC outlays. His plan makes up for that by reducing outlays elsewhere.

cpwill · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

imagep said:
As an employer, I really hope that minimum wage does not rise, and that means tested welfare programs are expanded. That way I can pay **** wages, and let the taxpayer take care of my employees.

I will then be able to put more money into my personal bank account, which I can use on my annual caribbean cruse (thanks taxpayers).

So, as an employer, let's say that instead actually EITC get's made nominally flat, meaning that it doesn't grow with inflation, and reduces in real terms as time goes by.

What forces you, as an employer, to figure for and then add that difference, annually, to your employees checks? Does the government do it?

countryboy · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

clownboy said:
You set up a condition where the majority of the free education users become the new minimum wage class. Water seeks it's own level. Anyone, no matter how poor, who has the capability and the drive, can get into and through a for payment college or technical school. Yes, they'll most likely graduate with significant debt, but that is nothing new (ask any white collar professional from any generation). But they'll also graduate with the capability to service that debt AND to have a long higher paying career.

Another case of libs wanting to double down on failed policy. We already have a legion of professional students with no intention of ever entering the work force and actually doing something with their government largess. Hey, I know, let's double down on that!

WSUwarrior · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

imagep said:
As an employer, I really hope that minimum wage does not rise, and that means tested welfare programs are expanded. That way I can pay **** wages, and let the taxpayer take care of my employees.

I will then be able to put more money into my personal bank account, which I can use on my annual caribbean cruse (thanks taxpayers).

If you are running a successful business you DESERVE an annual Caribbean cruise. If you are a loser who didnt take your life seriously and live paycheck to paycheck in a no skilled, low paying job as a career then you dont deserve much.

cpwill · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

TheDemSocialist said:
How about raising the minimum wage

It makes the poorest and least-skilled amongst us structurally almost unemployable. Why not get them the same increased financial support in such a way that it doesn't harm their ability to get a job and improve their life position?

and also investing in education?

We spend plenty on education. What we don't do is wisely structure it, or wisely structure our educational system.

Gimmesometruth · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
Here Buffet is correct.

Sure he is...

In my mind, the country’s economic policies should have two main objectives. First, we should wish, in our rich society, for every person who is willing to work to receive income that will provide him or her a decent lifestyle. Second, any plan to do that should not distort our market system, the key element required for growth and prosperity.

The problem is that the market has been distorted since the application of supply-side neo-liberal policy since 1977 through today, it broke the connection between productivity and wage gains resulting in nearly flat real wages for 80% of wage employment. Households require 2 earners and still household expenses outstripped income by 30% from 2000 to 2012. In other words, the market has not provided jobs with incomes to allow folks below the median to maintain a "decent" lifestyle, their lifestyle is in descent.

That second goal crumbles in the face of any plan to sizably increase the minimum wage. I may wish to have all jobs pay at least $15 an hour. But that minimum would almost certainly reduce employment in a major way, crushing many workers possessing only basic skills. Smaller increases, though obviously welcome, will still leave many hardworking Americans mired in poverty.

Perhaps the old man is not aware that the plans spread the increase out over years, but he undercuts his whole argument by claiming that even with MW increases "many" will remain in poverty. Is he admitting the market has failed (it has) or is he muddying with a truism about the elderly and children?

So is Paul Ryan, who has called not only for expanding the EIC, but for making it payable as part of a monthly stipend, so that you are increasing low-income Americans monthly take-home pay with it, vice simply providing them with a once-a-year lump-sum.

That sounds like a really bad idea since those with significant amounts of EIC also have the largest amount of income variance. His "plan" would require an anticipation of annual income to calculate a month going forward (which could result in a tax charge if income falls short of anticipation) or will require monthly reporting/paperwork.

imagep · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

WSUwarrior said:
If you are running a successful business you DESERVE an annual Caribbean cruise. If you are a loser who didnt take your life seriously and live paycheck to paycheck in a no skilled, low paying job as a career then you dont deserve much.

I think I deserve a monthly Caribbean cruise. Maybe the taxpayer should provide all of my workers income, that way I can have what I deserve (and so can they). I mean why should I, someone who runs a successful business, have to pay those low skilled employees a penny? Isn't that Uncle Sams job?

Deuce · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
1. It's not subsidizing low-wage-paying companies. There is zero forcing function in either direction. It is about subsidizing low-income workers.

2. Paul Ryan's plan would indeed increase EITC outlays. His plan makes up for that by reducing outlays elsewhere.

It's making the taxpayers support the low-income worker because the business isn't giving them enough to feed themselves with.

buck · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

imagep said:
You conservatives are all about subsidizing low wage paying companies and increasing welfare.

Welfare Payments Really Are Not Subsidies To The Profits Of Walmart And McDonald's - Forbes

The key point is that it is difficult to imagine how food stamps would lower wages. And if they don’t lower wages, they can’t be thought of as subsidies to low wage employers. The same logic applies to other means tested programs like energy or housing assistance. Moreover, these conclusions hold in a wide array of models of the labor market, including ones that emphasize bargaining or efficiency wage concerns.

Yes, the welfare system of the United States does provide subsidies. However, these are not subsidies to the profit margins of low wage employers like Walmart and McDonald’s Instead, as this journalist and that respected economist point out, they are subsidies to low wage employees themselves.

imagep · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

buck said:
Welfare Payments Really Are Not Subsidies To The Profits Of Walmart And McDonald's - Forbes

How low-wage employers cost taxpayers $153B a year - CBS News

Walmart: America's real 'Welfare Queen'

The Case Against Welfare | The moral case against welfare - tribunedigital-baltimoresun

Economic perspectives against the welfare state - CSMonitor.com

You conservatives are all alike. You want to run up the national debt and increase taxes to create a welfare state.

I'm often accused of being a liberal, yet I don't support any form of means tested welfare. It simply locks people into poverty at the expense of the tax payer, while substantially increasing the profits of low paying employers.

Gimmesometruth · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
So, as an employer, let's say that instead actually EITC get's made nominally flat, meaning that it doesn't grow with inflation, and reduces in real terms as time goes by.

What forces you, as an employer, to figure for and then add that difference, annually, to your employees checks? Does the government do it?

Obviously the pressure by the employee upon the employer for wage increases is reduced by tax credits, everyone knows that, and it is a distortion on the market, which again, everyone knows.

cpwill · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Deuce said:
It's making the taxpayers support the low-income worker because the business isn't giving them enough to feed themselves with.

The business gave them a job. A business is not a safety net structure, it is a business. If the employees want more income, they need to improve their skill set, experience, etc. Because the alternative to a low paying job for someone who hasn't done that is not a good-paying-job, it is no job. If anything, the business is saving the taxpayers money by reducing the amount of support the low-skill workers they hire will require from the safety net, and helping them to develop the skills and experience that could one day get them off of public support alltogether.

washunut · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Deuce said:
It's making the taxpayers support the low-income worker because the business isn't giving them enough to feed themselves with.

There are some jobs that are not meant to be able to feed yourself. Perhaps one should ask why people are stuck doing jobs for a lifetime that are usually handled by HS kids. Why not try and fix that problem rather than raise their pay above the rate you would pay someone to print t-shirts.

cpwill · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Gimmesometruth said:
Obviously the pressure by the employee upon the employer for wage increases is reduced by tax credits, everyone knows that

:lol: that's your forcing function? :mrgreen: Demonstrate it. Please show me how either employees stop wanting higher wages when they get aid from a safety net structure or employers are forced to take a loss on employees when employees really want them to.

it is a distortion on the market, which again, everyone knows.

Well, that is true - and is true of any safety net. It keeps less productive citizens from fully suffering the consequences. But I'm willing to put up with that.

Gimmesometruth · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
The business gave them a job. A business is not a safety net structure, it is a business. If the employees want more income, they need to improve their skill set, experience, etc. Because the alternative to a low paying job for someone who hasn't done that is not a good-paying-job, it is no job. If anything, the business is saving the taxpayers money by reducing the amount of support the low-skill workers they hire will require from the safety net, and helping them to develop the skills and experience that could one day get them off of public support alltogether.

The argument used to be merit, ie productivity, that was broken. From what I have read, most worker are over-qualified for their job, which to me sounds like a market failure.

imagep · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

washunut said:
There are some jobs that are not meant to be able to feed yourself. Perhaps one should ask why people are stuck doing jobs for a lifetime that are usually handled by HS kids. Why not try and fix that problem rather than raise their pay above the rate you would pay someone to print t-shirts.

My lowest paid employee makes $14 to "print t-shirts". Every job in my shop requires a skilled graphics art professional. And no high school kid has the job skills that I require. I guess I could hire a high school kid to clean up or take out the trash, but I only need so much cleaning up and trashing removal. This ain't burger flipping.

Fletch · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Kushinator said:
Just so it's clear, 1.6 million workers earn the minimum wage (another 2 million servers and bartenders earn less due to tip share).

Now with that said, do you know how many do not earn MW? Don't worry, ill wait.

You have to know that your post doesn't address a word that I said, right? Now why don't you read it again and try to actually engage in honest conversation. I know that is something liberals don't often do, but give it a shot.

cpwill · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

imagep said:
How low-wage employers cost taxpayers $153B a year - CBS News

Walmart: America's real 'Welfare Queen'

The Case Against Welfare | The moral case against welfare - tribunedigital-baltimoresun

Economic perspectives against the welfare state - CSMonitor.com

:shrug: all of these arguments suffer from the exact same fallacy he already outlined for you. Since you are unable to describe the forcing function that would actually cause Wal-Mart to raise or lower it's wages in inverse proportion to social subsidization of it's work force, simply repeating others who make the same failed argument doesn't count as a response, it just counts as doubling-down on an argument that has already been demonstrated to be false.

Deuce · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

cpwill said:
The business gave them a job. A business is not a safety net structure, it is a business. If the employees want more income, they need to improve their skill set, experience, etc. Because the alternative to a low paying job for someone who hasn't done that is not a good-paying-job, it is no job. If anything, the business is saving the taxpayers money by reducing the amount of support the low-skill workers they hire will require from the safety net, and helping them to develop the skills and experience that could one day get them off of public support alltogether.

If you want somebody to work for you full-time, you need to pay them enough to, you know, eat.

Or else they aren't going to work for you full-time.

But these employers get away with paying less than that, because the taxpayers are picking up the slack.

cpwill · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

imagep said:
My lowest paid employee makes $14 to "print t-shirts". Every job in my shop requires a skilled graphics art professional. And no high school kid has the job skills that I require. I guess I could hire a high school kid to clean up or take out the trash, but I only need so much cleaning up and trashing removal. This ain't burger flipping.

What?!? You refuse to hire people without the requisite skills and experience to make them beneficial to your business!?! But, but, but, businesses have to hire such workers! Else, um, well, else, um, well otherwise plans to immanentize the eschaton won't work!!!!

Fletch · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

imagep said:
My lowest paid employee makes $14 to "print t-shirts". Every job in my shop requires a skilled graphics art professional. And no high school kid has the job skills that I require. I guess I could hire a high school kid to clean up or take out the trash, but I only need so much cleaning up and trashing removal. This ain't burger flipping.

Lets use your business as an example then. Say the minimum is raised to $15. What happens? Obviously, the guy making $14 gets a dollar raise, but what happens to the rest of your employees who I assume are making $15+? Your skilled graphics art professionals aren't going to be to happy about now making as much as a 16 year old, unskilled mcDonalds burger flipper are they?

cpwill · May 23, 2015

Re: Warren Buffett Don't raise the minimum wage

Deuce said:
If you want somebody to work for you full-time, you need to pay them enough to, you know, eat.

1. MW is plenty to eat.
2. No you don't. Witness: high school kids, second income earners, interns.

Or else they aren't going to work for you full-time.

:shrug: then supply and demand will drive up what I have to pay to attract full-time labor, now, won't I?

But these employers get away with paying less than that, because the taxpayers are picking up the slack.

That is false. Again, there is no forcing function that would require any of these employers to raise or lower their wages in inverse response to the safety net.

Except - and this is a worthy point - to the degree that the safety net risks outbidding them for low-income labor. If you can make about as much or nothing at all sitting at home on your butt, there are plenty of people who will do that. But if we got rid of food stamps tomorrow, there is nothing that would force McDonalds or Wal Mart to calculate increase their wages to make up the loss to their workforce.

Warren Buffett: $15 minimum wage will hurt the working class

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