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Florida's Valencia College sued over forced vaginal exams

I find the instructional medical community very strange. With 3 immediate family members working as professionals in medicine, I've seen the oddities first hand. These programs get ran much like fraternities/sororities, with various forms of hazing. The all have their own policies, typically that are much stricter or even contradictory to that of the parent school. Threats are constant - threats of lesser grades, expulsion from the program (irrespective of grades), etc. These programs do generally have long waiting lists for small class sizes, so I understand the desire to make sure people are serious. But all I've seen is powers trips for the most part.

The procedure in question is easily learned during clinicals. So doing it on students sounds lime hazing to me.

Very good points, and I believe that your fraternity comparison is dead on.

At the end of the day, however, the concept that hands on training is needed for some tasks is a valid one. I dont have the knowledge to say what hands on training is, or is not, truly needed for medical procedures. Thus, I give the school leeway.

Subjectively, I dont have alot of sympathy for the students in question. Neither would I have alot of sympathy for a police officer who refused to train hands on with compliance holds with him as the subject.
 
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Anomalism has posted ANOTHER disingenuous thread it would seem.

All I did was post an article from CNN. If anything was disingenuous it was CNN's doing, not mine. I promise it won't hurt my feelings if you pass over my threads without commenting.
 
It seems the bigger problem is it was done under very unprofessional conditions with lewd conduct on the instructor's part.
 
It seems the bigger problem is it was done under very unprofessional conditions with lewd conduct on the instructor's part.

Yes, some of the frat house comments and the over all presentation probably could have been done differently- though all the examiners were also female.

At the end of the day, hands on training and / or isntuctiong with a live subject is a valid concept for some medical procedures. This can involve peer to peer, or teacher to student practice. Health care students need to realize and accept that.
 
Yes, some of the frat house comments and the over all presentation probably could have been done differently- though all the examiners were also female.

At the end of the day, hands on training and / or isntuctiong with a live subject is a valid concept for some medical procedures. This can involve peer to peer, or teacher to student practice. Health care students need to realize and accept that.

Why dont they find the one girl in class who is a slut and wants to volenteer? Instead of running some wanna be lesbian domineering cult hidden within a teaching facility. Hell or find some chubby girl on craigslist for 20 bucks.
 
Why dont they find the one girl in class who is a slut and wants to volenteer? Instead of running some wanna be lesbian domineering cult hidden within a teaching facility. Hell or find some chubby girl on craigslist for 20 bucks.

They might have tried that option, but the few takers could well have wanted far more than $20.00. Also, the isntructors did not seem too lesbian looking to me.
 
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They might have tried that option, but the few takers could well have wanted far more than $20.00. Also, the isntructors did not seem too lesbian looking to me.

Why not have the instructors be automatic voleteers if they want the job? Instead of trying to force/herd degradation upon their students.
 
You might be less inclined to tell them to shove off when you think your future career could be at risk.

Who needs a career with a multi million dollar lawsuit?
 
In that case, a hands on medical career is not for you. You're also "forced" to empty bedpans and dig out bowel impactions (involves putting your finger up someone's butt and pulling out their ****).

Um...I do think I'd have a problem with the second part. I would have a problem being told that I had to get naked in front of classmates. Peers. And then allow them to probe me. Volunteers only. Forcing someone to do that isn't ok.
 
My father and sister are both in the medical field one doctor, the other nurse. Part of what I gleamed from their description of their own experiences is that part of this "lack of modesty" is deliberate. It is an attempt to desensitize medical professionals so they can work in and around the human body without hangups. Especially hearing my sisters stories about her training and the stuff she did on the job, over time she became able to do what I would consider extremely gross things without batting an eyelash. I have to assume that kind of aplomb is helpful to the patient. This though is from an outsider looking in, any medical professionals feel this is close?
 
Seems to me that this would be beneficial to someone in the medical industry? Now, if you were going to school for small engines then I can see where one might have a problem with it, but the course curriculum states that this is part of the course.. What's the big deal?

It's just *****.. ;)


Tim-
 
Seems to me that this would be beneficial to someone in the medical industry? Now, if you were going to school for small engines then I can see where one might have a problem with it, but the course curriculum states that this is part of the course.. What's the big deal?

It's just *****.. ;)


Tim-
Some poeple are fond of keeping their ***** exclusive. And allowing someone to look at your "*****" istn the same as willing to be able to check up on someone else that needs it. It shouldnt be forced desensitation of the self. They should hire very ugly women to train on so people get desensitized. Not sit there and get enjoyment out of bending the students into being public voyeurs.

Thats just slut training disguised as something meaningful.
 
Some poeple are fond of keeping their ***** exclusive. And allowing someone to look at your "*****" istn the same as willing to be able to check up on someone else that needs it. It shouldnt be forced desensitation of the self. They should hire very ugly women to train on so people get desensitized. Not sit there and get enjoyment out of bending the students into being public voyeurs.

Thats just slut training disguised as something meaningful.


Lost in translation though is that the college is claiming that no one was forced. The burden will now rest on the petitioners to prove that they were forced, and they'll need documentary evidence to support that claim, NOT just the word of the other two petitioners.

Tim-
 
Why dont they find the one girl in class who is a slut and wants to volenteer? Instead of running some wanna be lesbian domineering cult hidden within a teaching facility. Hell or find some chubby girl on craigslist for 20 bucks.

Do you have evidence that sexually active women (sluts) and chubby women tolerate gynecological exams better than 'chaste' and thin women? The claim sounds like the traditional, ignorant, sexist bullying of alleged 'sluts' based on the double standard that comes from men terrified by women who enjoy sex.
 
My father and sister are both in the medical field one doctor, the other nurse. Part of what I gleamed from their description of their own experiences is that part of this "lack of modesty" is deliberate. It is an attempt to desensitize medical professionals so they can work in and around the human body without hangups. Especially hearing my sisters stories about her training and the stuff she did on the job, over time she became able to do what I would consider extremely gross things without batting an eyelash. I have to assume that kind of aplomb is helpful to the patient. This though is from an outsider looking in, any medical professionals feel this is close?

Having gone through medical school I would say this is highly abnormal. The most invasive procedure medical students subject eachother to is blood taking. No pelvic exams on a female colleague or digital rectal exams on a male colleague.

You would shadow an expert in a hospital setting and gain patient consent to perform examinations like this under supervision to gain experience. Often times, the consenting patient will be under anaesthetic for a related surgery.
 
Lost in translation though is that the college is claiming that no one was forced. The burden will now rest on the petitioners to prove that they were forced, and they'll need documentary evidence to support that claim, NOT just the word of the other two petitioners.

Tim-
Not really they can still get hit for systemic coercion with rogue teachers creating an enviroment of abuse. They said it was optional only to find out that after they get your money its psuedo-optional. Letting someone explore your own vagina is not needed to learn how to explore others. And the desensitizing thing doesnt really stand because they should be purposely hiring grotesque obese people for desensitization.
 
Do you have evidence that sexually active women (sluts) and chubby women tolerate gynecological exams better than 'chaste' and thin women? The claim sounds like the traditional, ignorant, sexist bullying of alleged 'sluts' based on the double standard that comes from men terrified by women who enjoy sex.

I am not terrified by women who enjoy sex at all. What concerns me is people bullying others into stuff that can be turned into something sexual for one or the other. Chubby girls are usually more "easy", not always but thats just how it is. A slut is more likely to let you use her vagina, in any circumstance, for money. Thats just how it is.
 
I am not terrified by women who enjoy sex at all. What concerns me is people bullying others into stuff that can be turned into something sexual for one or the other. Chubby girls are usually more "easy", not always but thats just how it is. A slut is more likely to let you use her vagina, in any circumstance, for money. Thats just how it is.

Prostitutes (whores) charge money for sex. The usual meaning of "slut" is a woman who has sex too indiscriminately because she enjoys it or is emotionally needy. Define slut and explain how you know they are "..more likely to let you use her vagina, in any circumstance,.."
 
Prostitutes (whores) charge money for sex. The usual meaning of "slut" is a woman who has sex too indiscriminately because she enjoys it or is emotionally needy. Define slut and explain how you know they are "..more likely to let you use her vagina, in any circumstance,.."

you really think that a slut wouldnt be more willing to agree to a probe than a non-slut??? You are going to try to argue that? lol
 
you really think that a slut wouldnt be more willing to agree to a probe than a non-slut??? You are going to try to argue that? lol

None of the sexually active women I know look forward to gynecological exams. I love sex but I don't enjoy it when doctors examine my genitals. Consensual sex and medical exams aren't very similar.
 
None of the sexually active women I know look forward to gynecological exams. I love sex but I don't enjoy it when doctors examine my genitals. Consensual sex and medical exams aren't very similar.

There is a difference in a gynecological exam and a school where you learn about it, parading the procedure in front of everyone.... Common dude. Who would be getting paid to visit the gynecologist??? thats not what we are talking about. We are talking about someone getting paid for the use of their vagina. And the only girl I talked to about a gynecological exam said that after it she stayed aroused for about a whole day..... Not that it matters cuz thats not the point. Of course a lady isnt going to tell you she enjoyed an exam. They have standards most need you to percieve they uphold.
 
At the end of the day, however, the concept that hands on training is needed for some tasks is a valid one. I dont have the knowledge to say what hands on training is, or is not, truly needed for medical procedures. Thus, I give the school leeway.

Subjectively, I dont have alot of sympathy for the students in question. Neither would I have alot of sympathy for a police officer who refused to train hands on with compliance holds with him as the subject.

But that is what clinical rotations are for. As these courses go on, the students do more and more clinical time at a hospital in place of their lab time. They practice under the guidance of a working expert who is often more skilled than their lab instructors (they are still practicing in the field vs being a full time instructor).

If your good friend was a sonographer, and you needed a prostate exam would you go to him, or would you schedule an appointment with somebody you don't know? Most people would choose the latter. These students have a case.
 
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