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Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

Anomalism

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I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”
 
The "people of the United States" by majority seem to have ignorantly and rather stupidly trusted the federal government to decide for us the line on individual rights vs. national security with damn near bipartisan consensus. And worse, the further we go the more the line ends up subject to political whim.

Internationally we have a bigger black eye with we handled Germany specifically. We not only overstepped our spying on German officials, but we apparently enlisted their help to spy on whom we directed them to for our (perhaps mutual) benefit. That has yet to be realized.

No matter how this plays out it is clear the NSA has become an agency drunk on its ability to do whatever it wishes.
 
I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”

I'm very concerned about such things.
 
The "people of the United States" by majority seem to have ignorantly and rather stupidly trusted the federal government to decide for us the line on individual rights vs. national security with damn near bipartisan consensus. And worse, the further we go the more the line ends up subject to political whim.

Internationally we have a bigger black eye with we handled Germany specifically. We not only overstepped our spying on German officials, but we apparently enlisted their help to spy on whom we directed them to for our (perhaps mutual) benefit. That has yet to be realized.

No matter how this plays out it is clear the NSA has become an agency drunk on its ability to do whatever it wishes.

We should defund the NSA.

One stipulation.

Spying on Americans is the first thing to go. Foreign citizens get the second class ticket. At the end of the day the constitution was meant for us.
 
I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”

I think it would have been a good idea, if successive German governments since Kohl had explained to the German people how things hang together instead of lying to the population in so many existentially important areas. The German people have been being lied to especially in a security context since before Kohl and increasingly during that Chancellor's reign.

In this specific context an American diplomat warned the German government that lying was not a good idea. But Merkel's people did. Now they have allowed the thing to escalate in a very destructive way, though the activities of NSA were totally in accordance with this and earlier governments approval. By not explaining this, the Merkel government has done the relationship with the US a vast disservice. That the Germans are a lose cannon has long been known and this here is just another demonstration of the danger of relying on them.
 
We should defund the NSA.

One stipulation.

Spying on Americans is the first thing to go. Foreign citizens get the second class ticket. At the end of the day the constitution was meant for us.

Don't be silly. The Nsa needs improvement and better control, no doubt there. But if anything they need more funding and a government that explains why they are there and makes sure that supposedly allied governments do not lie about it to their populations like successive German governments have.
 
Don't be silly. The Nsa needs improvement and better control, no doubt there. But if anything they need more funding and a government that explains why they are there and makes sure that supposedly allied governments do not lie about it to their populations like successive German governments have.

The NSA needs to be abolished with any of its operations dealing with foreign enemies going to perhaps the CIA. Any operations dealing with an American citizen including the data spying bull**** needs to be stopped.

Make two organizations one for better logistics.
 
I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”

I do care. Our intelligence violated the number one rule...don't get caught.

International espionage was and will always be an important part of any government. In peace and war. Everything from trade to security relies on intelligence. And the reality is that Germany spies on America too. Every nation engages in espionage.

So I do care. They shouldn't have gotten caught.
 
The "people of the United States" by majority seem to have ignorantly and rather stupidly trusted the federal government to decide for us the line on individual rights vs. national security with damn near bipartisan consensus. And worse, the further we go the more the line ends up subject to political whim.

Internationally we have a bigger black eye with we handled Germany specifically. We not only overstepped our spying on German officials, but we apparently enlisted their help to spy on whom we directed them to for our (perhaps mutual) benefit. That has yet to be realized.

No matter how this plays out it is clear the NSA has become an agency drunk on its ability to do whatever it wishes.

You are right that the damage is rather large. But it is incorrect to say that the activities of CIA, NSA et alias were overstep on their parts. The German government allowed explicitly and implicitly that the agencies to do, what they did. Schröder's Head of the Chancellery signed of on any spying that the US though it required for the safety of stationed troops. The man that signed off on it is presently Merkel's Foreign Minister. This government used the information gleaned by the agencies and actively supported their activities by supplying IT data and EU wide infrastructure. So don't let the domestic politics over here fool you. We are dealing with a very sleazy bunch of operators here and have been for quite some time.
 
We should defund the NSA.

One stipulation.

Spying on Americans is the first thing to go. Foreign citizens get the second class ticket. At the end of the day the constitution was meant for us.

I tend to agree with you but our fundamental problem is policy, not resulting department. The only satisfactory choice here is an outright repeal of the Patriot Act in its entirety. Which would include all of the additions and extensions we have seen since. I am not talking about a stripped down replacement act, but a complete repeal.

The NSA existed well before the Patriot Act, in its original form was a secure communications encryption / decryption agency. I do not mind that function. What I mind is what the NSA has become due to politician whim and honestly reactionary judgement with Constitutional question. Bulk data collection, storage, and analysis was an addition via policy.

In principle I am agreeing with defunding the NSA, DEA, ATF, and a dozen other agencies designed to do one thing but ending up with a host of negative sociological impacts. But we have to keep that spotlight on the politicians that willfully exchange our fundamental freedoms and principles for government overreach under the guise of "national security" entirely at our expense (in every sense of the word.)

How we handle other nations and foreign citizens will then become much more clear once we get our own house in order.
 
You are right that the damage is rather large. But it is incorrect to say that the activities of CIA, NSA et alias were overstep on their parts. The German government allowed explicitly and implicitly that the agencies to do, what they did. Schröder's Head of the Chancellery signed of on any spying that the US though it required for the safety of stationed troops. The man that signed off on it is presently Merkel's Foreign Minister. This government used the information gleaned by the agencies and actively supported their activities by supplying IT data and EU wide infrastructure. So don't let the domestic politics over here fool you. We are dealing with a very sleazy bunch of operators here and have been for quite some time.

Perhaps, these are good points. Given what we know, I cannot let go of the continual expansion of power we see play out due to policy. We really screwed up here in how we approach our allies, based on the ability the government gave itself over its own citizens.

"Very sleazy bunch of operators"... understatement of the decade.
 
I tend to agree with you but our fundamental problem is policy, not resulting department. The only satisfactory choice here is an outright repeal of the Patriot Act in its entirety. Which would include all of the additions and extensions we have seen since. I am not talking about a stripped down replacement act, but a complete repeal.

The NSA existed well before the Patriot Act, in its original form was a secure communications encryption / decryption agency. I do not mind that function. What I mind is what the NSA has become due to politician whim and honestly reactionary judgement with Constitutional question. Bulk data collection, storage, and analysis was an addition via policy.

In principle I am agreeing with defunding the NSA, DEA, ATF, and a dozen other agencies designed to do one thing but ending up with a host of negative sociological impacts. But we have to keep that spotlight on the politicians that willfully exchange our fundamental freedoms and principles for government overreach under the guise of "national security" entirely at our expense (in every sense of the word.)

How we handle other nations and foreign citizens will then become much more clear once we get our own house in order.

Indeed the PATRIOT act is, if taken in with context, an oxymoron.
 
The NSA needs to be abolished with any of its operations dealing with foreign enemies going to perhaps the CIA. Any operations dealing with an American citizen including the data spying bull**** needs to be stopped.

Make two organizations one for better logistics.

That is a fine demand. It does not convince me.
 
I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”
Isn't that the same Angela Merkel that was outraged to find that the US was spying on her?
 
Perhaps, these are good points. Given what we know, I cannot let go of the continual expansion of power we see play out due to policy. We really screwed up here in how we approach our allies, based on the ability the government gave itself over its own citizens.

"Very sleazy bunch of operators"... understatement of the decade.

There is no doubt that we need to clean up our act. But I am not at all convinced that reducing the amount of data mining is the way to go.
 
There is no doubt that we need to clean up our act. But I am not at all convinced that reducing the amount of data mining is the way to go.

Spying on foreign nations? Or our own? Or just getting caught?
 
Explain why we do things better.

So I take it you would prefer the not get caught approach? I'm not exactly sure what your response meant.

I know that we can and should spy on other nations though. National security isn't the only reason. Global politics isn't a board game. There are no rules. Cheating isn't really cheating.
 
So I take it you would prefer the not get caught approach? I'm not exactly sure what your response meant.

I know that we can and should spy on other nations though. National security isn't the only reason. Global politics isn't a board game. There are no rules. Cheating isn't really cheating.

The response was that we haven't been explaining why we do things well enough and must do it better.
 
Indeed the PATRIOT act is, if taken in with context, an oxymoron.

It is a perfect example of how they spin in an effort to deceive, and all these years later as Congress prepares to do it again, their efforts were very successful.
 
I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”

Maybe it'll spur a vote of confidence election and boot her conservative ass out of there so they can lead Europe's economic resurgence instead of oppressing the rest of Europe with her forced austerity measures.
 
The NSA needs to be abolished with any of its operations dealing with foreign enemies going to perhaps the CIA. Any operations dealing with an American citizen including the data spying bull**** needs to be stopped.

Make two organizations one for better logistics.

That's kind of where I'm at. I don't want to abolish the NSA because I'm pissed at them. I just don't see the need for it when you have the CIA and the FBI in place. Its sole existence is to hide itself and its actions from the law. So just put it back in those two orgs where it belongs.
 
I wish people in the United States actually cared about this stuff.

Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying | World news | The Guardian


The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is coming under increasing pressure to divulge a list of targets, including the IP addresses of individual computers, that German intelligence tracked on behalf of the US National Security Agency (NSA). Critics have accused Merkel’s staff of giving the BND foreign intelligence agency the green light to help the NSA spy on European firms and officials. The scandal has strained relations between Merkel’s conservative Christian Democratic Union and its junior coalition partner, the Social Democrats, whose leader, Sigmar Gabriel, has publicly challenged her over the affair.

Gabriel told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag that parliament needed to see the list, which contains names, search terms and IP addresses. The government has said it must consult the US before revealing the list, whose contents are thought crucial to establishing whether the BND was at fault in helping the NSA. Gabriel, who is also Germany’s vice-chancellor, said: “Imagine if there were suspicions that the NSA had helped the BND to spy on American firms. Congress wouldn’t hesitate for a second before looking into the documents.”
The majority of the American people have no problem with our government spying as long as it is not spying on we the American people. I think majority of people in other countries have the same view that spying is alright as long as their government is not spying on them.

Now I am sure the average citizen would be furious if their government spied on them, allowed and or worked with another government to spy on them. I hope the Germans have enough sense to throw out Merkel and anyone else who colluded with a forign government to spy on them. The only thing that worries me about the OP story is the worry that our government may have aided and or worked with other governments in spying on the American people. This is why you don't elect globalists/internationalists to office.This is why you want nationalists in office.A globalist/internationalist will have no problem selling your country out and aiding forign governments against their own people.
 
The majority of the American people have no problem with our government spying as long as it is not spying on we the American people. I think majority of people in other countries have the same view that spying is alright as long as their government is not spying on them.

Now I am sure the average citizen would be furious if their government spied on them, allowed and or worked with another government to spy on them. I hope the Germans have enough sense to throw out Merkel and anyone else who colluded with a forign government to spy on them. The only thing that worries me about the OP story is the worry that our government may have aided and or worked with other governments in spying on the American people. This is why you don't elect globalists/internationalists to office.This is why you want nationalists in office.A globalist/internationalist will have no problem selling your country out and aiding forign governments against their own people.

I'm not internationally known but I'm known through out the microphone.
 
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