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Angela Merkel under pressure to reveal extent of German help for US spying

Henry David said:
Regarding data from US citizens, what do you suppose that "no warrant shall issue but upon probable cause" mean to you?
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I don't see that it applies here.
 
joG said:
I don't see that it applies here.
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Then you think that data can be gathered by the government without any warrant at all?
 
joG said:
I don't see that it applies here.
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Well thankfully the court, with a superior understanding of constitutional law, disagrees with you.
 
Henry David said:
Then you think that data can be gathered by the government without any warrant at all?
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Apparently he does, and doesn't seem to care. I'm telling you HD, I have the greatest difficulty comprehending this myself.
 
Henry David said:
Then you think that data can be gathered by the government without any warrant at all?
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It depends on which data you mean, but meta data and emails? Yes.
 
Montecresto said:
Well thankfully the court, with a superior understanding of constitutional law, disagrees with you.
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From what I read not so very much. They seem to think that the data mining can be made legal, if Congress wants to make the appropriate laws.
 
joG said:
It depends on which data you mean, but meta data and emails? Yes.
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So then you must also think that the entire Fourth Amendment means nothing?

If that's the case, it's no surprise. The citizenry is conditioned in their understandings and perceptions by the government's actions, sooner or later.

All these years after the Unpatriot Act, folks see the Fourth as being irrelevant and null and void.
 
Henry David said:
So then you must also think that the entire Fourth Amendment means nothing?

If that's the case, it's no surprise. The citizenry is conditioned in their understandings and perceptions by the government's actions, sooner or later.

All these years after the Unpatriot Act, folks see the Fourth as being irrelevant and null and void.
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Not only that, why would congress contradict the intent and purpose of the fourth amendment by legislating this into law. And still, why are there those that seem nonchalant toward it or worse, welcoming of it?
 
ocean515 said:
If they all rise and fall together, how can there be an economically dominant country? It seems to me the economics and politics of the other countries are to blame for their own struggles, as opposed to a country like Germany, who apparently doesn't suffer from the same economic mistakes.
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They ultimately will rise and fall together. And in a competitive atmosphere you want to be the big dog. And being the big dog in a purist competitive arena means competing and growing stronger than your counterpart. But in real competition what happens is while you may work harder, you don't miss an opportunity to pull a Tonya Harding baton to the knee on your opponent whenever the opportunity arises.

In the EU, the strongest economy dictates a lot of economic policies to the other countries. IMO, they need to either become a country of United States like us or go for their sovereignty again. You can't half ass this step like they have.
 
poweRob said:
They ultimately will rise and fall together. And in a competitive atmosphere you want to be the big dog. And being the big dog in a purist competitive arena means competing and growing stronger than your counterpart. But in real competition what happens is while you may work harder, you don't miss an opportunity to pull a Tonya Harding baton to the knee on your opponent whenever the opportunity arises.

In the EU, the strongest economy dictates a lot of economic policies to the other countries. IMO, they need to either become a country of United States like us or go for their sovereignty again. You can't half ass this step like they have.
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Well, I would have to agree. The EU has been a major mistake. I applaud those countries who have resisted joining, and those who have voiced a desire to pull out. Countries, and the citizens in them, should be accountable for their own policies and agendas, otherwise they will never learn from their mistakes.

Consider Greece. They haven't learned, and their current path is quickly leading to complete meltdown as a country. Yet, having learned nothing about fiscal policy, and the role of government, they are expecting others to bail them out. Total foolishness.
 
ocean515 said:
Well, I would have to agree. The EU has been a major mistake. I applaud those countries who have resisted joining, and those who have voiced a desire to pull out. Countries, and the citizens in them, should be accountable for their own policies and agendas, otherwise they will never learn from their mistakes.

Consider Greece. They haven't learned, and their current path is quickly leading to complete meltdown as a country. Yet, having learned nothing about fiscal policy, and the role of government, they are expecting others to bail them out. Total foolishness.
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Good morning, ocean515. :2wave:

:agree: I'm not an economist, but since you mentioned Greece, it seems to me that giving money to them to pay back money they already owe doesn't make sense. That's like using my credit card to make a payment on my credit card!

As far as data mining, that doesn't make sense to me either, but then most things going on today don't! :mrgreen: Since our government seems to know that ISIS, for instance, is already in all 50 States in the US, couldn't they just concentrate on them and save a lot of time keeping track of everyone else? There's more to this, and it probably involves money as the bottom line, since they seem to be tightening the rules on what we may, or may not, do with our money. I've read that some banks are even asking customers why they want to withdraw some of their own money! :shock: I could understand that type of questioning if you were attempting to get a loan from them, but asking why you want to withdraw some of your own money is certainly weird, IMO. And if you say "none-ya," you probably end up on some government list! Sheesh!
 
polgara said:
Good morning, ocean515. :2wave:

:agree: I'm not an economist, but since you mentioned Greece, it seems to me that giving money to them to pay back money they already owe doesn't make sense. That's like using my credit card to make a payment on my credit card!

As far as data mining, that doesn't make sense to me either, but then most things going on today don't! :mrgreen: Since our government seems to know that ISIS, for instance, is already in all 50 States in the US, couldn't they just concentrate on them and save a lot of time keeping track of everyone else? There's more to this, and it probably involves money as the bottom line, since they seem to be tightening the rules on what we may, or may not, do with our money. I've read that some banks are even asking customers why they want to withdraw some of their own money! :shock: I could understand that type of questioning if you were attempting to get a loan from them, but asking why you want to withdraw some of your own money is certainly weird, IMO. And if you say "none-ya," you probably end up on some government list! Sheesh!
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I remain mostly on the fence on the data/surveillance issue. On one hand, privacy is a very important principle, on the other, our enemies are getting very sophisticated. For example, Oregon is about to start a test where drivers will pay a tax for every mile driven, and receive credits against fuel taxes paid at the pump. To track miles driven, the government will install GPS based tracking devices on their vehicle which will report the miles. Why would anyone want to give the government such specific personal information? Why would the government want it? Is it a good idea? Perhaps, electric vehicles pay almost nothing to help maintain the roads they drive on. But what happens when this Oregon experiment goes National? The government will be able to tell where you are, or a least your vehicle, every hour of the day.

Like so many other things, government regulatory incrementalism is real. It's a death by 1000 cuts.
 
ocean515 said:
I remain mostly on the fence on the data/surveillance issue. On one hand, privacy is a very important principle, on the other, our enemies are getting very sophisticated. For example, Oregon is about to start a test where drivers will pay a tax for every mile driven, and receive credits against fuel taxes paid at the pump. To track miles driven, the government will install GPS based tracking devices on their vehicle which will report the miles. Why would anyone want to give the government such specific personal information? Why would the government want it? Is it a good idea? Perhaps, electric vehicles pay almost nothing to help maintain the roads they drive on. But what happens when this Oregon experiment goes National? The government will be able to tell where you are, or a least your vehicle, every hour of the day.

Like so many other things, government regulatory incrementalism is real. It's a death by 1000 cuts.
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If you have a smart phone, even if you walk or ride a bike, they already know where you are. It was bound to happen with vehicles, too. I just never realized before now how utterly fascinating we all must be! :lamo: Little baby steps toward some goal never alarms anyone at the time....
 
polgara said:
If you have a smart phone, even if you walk or ride a bike, they already know where you are. It was bound to happen with vehicles, too. I just never realized before now how utterly fascinating we all must be! :lamo: Little baby steps toward some goal never alarms anyone at the time....
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Exactly. I wonder if they have a "boring file" for people they have mined data from? So "they" mine data to see what people are up to. Everything seems so innocuous and simple at first. When I see something that includes "only doing what's fair" in a description, I start looking for the catch.

Again, the "miles driven" tax comes to mind. At some point, I sense this will be how the government addresses higher mpg's in cars against the need to collect revenue to pay for roads, etc.. When does the "hey, that trip you took was a luxury" and a higher tax get levied?

One thing I know about slippery slopes, they don't stay gradual for long. :afraid:
 
Montecresto said:
Not only that, why would congress contradict the intent and purpose of the fourth amendment by legislating this into law. And still, why are there those that seem nonchalant toward it or worse, welcoming of it?
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Strictly speaking, any legislation that contradicts the USC is null and void, unconstitutional. No citizen has an obligation to obey such illegitimate legislation, and God Bless 'em, the librarians who refused to honor the NSL censorship requirements made that point.
 
ocean515 said:
Well, I would have to agree. The EU has been a major mistake. I applaud those countries who have resisted joining, and those who have voiced a desire to pull out. Countries, and the citizens in them, should be accountable for their own policies and agendas, otherwise they will never learn from their mistakes.

Consider Greece. They haven't learned, and their current path is quickly leading to complete meltdown as a country. Yet, having learned nothing about fiscal policy, and the role of government, they are expecting others to bail them out. Total foolishness.
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It could work either way. I think they could do rather well as a united country so long as they actually unite. The economic power would be something to definitely contend with... but they'd have to unite and not do this... whatever they want to call it half step where they aren't united but are bound by rules outside of their countries that take away their ability to run themselves.
 
poweRob said:
It could work either way. I think they could do rather well as a united country so long as they actually unite. The economic power would be something to definitely contend with... but they'd have to unite and not do this... whatever they want to call it half step where they aren't united but are bound by rules outside of their countries that take away their ability to run themselves.
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I believe there is enough evidence in the book of human history to demonstrate such cooperation among disparate peoples is a fools errand.

There are too many cultural/historical/geographical/economic differences to expect unity could be reached. It doesn't appear that is how man has evolved, not matter what the hope is.
 
ocean515 said:
I believe there is enough evidence in the book of human history to demonstrate such cooperation among disparate peoples is a fools errand.

There are too many cultural/historical/geographical/economic differences to expect unity could be reached. It doesn't appear that is how man has evolved, not matter what the hope is.
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Yes mankind is tribal more than not... But unity seems to have worked rather well in our country.
 
poweRob said:
Yes mankind is tribal more than not... But unity seems to have worked rather well in our country.
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It's arguable that forces are trying to change that unity for political expediency in this country. It seems mankind has learned a group has a better chance at survival than to go it alone, but only to a point.
 
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